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Working Cars should be a RARE Commodity


Eblanc

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So calling someone unmature is bad? What about arguing o:? (I'm not trying to start anything just wondering)

 

Also if hotwiring is added make it a skill really difficult to level up .1% chance to actually work.

Electrical tape should fix the wires that don't work for multiple tries :).

 

Worse case scenario is cutting all the wires and connecting them all for a explosion xD

 

I don't know what you're talking about. how can you conenct all wires and create an explosion? and what is unmature?

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little boy

 

Synonyms: Child, childish, puerile, kid-like, immature

 

I think you can figure out the problem here. We don't need to spell out every possible variation of what not to call someone; I think you know what Enigma went. Be lovely, and don't think you can get away with stuff just because we haven't spelled out every possible deviation from the rules clearly. If you're a rules nazi, you'll just get slapped with rule 13.

 

I think this thread has gone on long enough and far enough off topic.

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-snip-

 

No. I'm so sick of people using this as an excuse for bad ideas. Carpentry, trapping, fishing. These are all physical puzzles that you can look at, wrap your mind around, and figure out. Hotwiring a modern vehicle is not like that. If you don't know how to do it ahead of time and you have no knowledge of electrical engineering you can't just figure it out. No one figured out how to hotwire a modern car by just flipping wires around- electrical engineers figured it out and told people/put the information on the internet. Some cars it's flat impossible to hotwire like that.

 

This is how you hotwire a car:

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Hotwire-a-Car

 

Note that method one and two don't any car built in the last two decades. Note that number three doesn't work on any car with an electrical brain because it will still just shut it down permanently. You have to actually rewire the entire electrical system to get around it.

 

Physical skills that require no foreknowledge ≠ skills that require technical knowledge to even begin. This comparison is incredibly broken all around and it's an excuse I see used every single time something unrealistic is brought up.

 

 

I beg to differ on method 2 not working on things from the last two decades, It works on practically every car made in the up until the mid 90's. Also you're over estimating the number of "modern" cars in the PZ setting.

 

I did say modern cars will be hard if not impossible, that I grant you guys. Although it is very possible to hotwire old cars or just spoof a keyturn in them with things like butter knives or screwdrivers (and hammer, a drill in very few cases but it helps and could be a good use for it ain-game). It is not the major feat of engineering you might think, sure today it is significantly harder but not even in the 90's was it hard to find a way to steal cars. With trial and error it IS possible to ascertain the correct wires to use just as practice will yield better results in mechanically forcing a screwdriver into the keyhole, it is certainly even more viable when you have the owners manual, which is usually in the car itself and then still more pheasible with ample cars to practice the skill on..

 

I say this because and I quote:

I can't remember the exact year Will was thinking of, but PZ does indeed take place in the past, though not as far back as the 80s.  Those LCDs were done before I knew of the time period ;)

 

So it is safe to assume the LCD screen (Flat panel early 2000's looking screen is what was referred to in the quote) does not yet exist (even though the flat panel LCD screen was invented in 1964). It is certainly not a definite point of time but it is a time-frame, thus my points of arguement that it is not a "bad idea" as you so charmingly put it.

 

So if the setting takes place in the 90's then there will be a myriad of 80's models about and even pheasibly 70's makes. Without nearly as many "Modern" ones as today.

Edited by Viceroy
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Lots of talk all to say one thing:

 

For the average guy with normal skills, it would never happen. I already explained why trial and error doesn't work, but feel free to keep ignoring it. Bad point is bad.

 

Edit: Not to mention how very little gameplay value it adds per time spent coding and how annoying it would be to be part of something that furthers the ignorant stereotype that hotwiring a car is easy, which then makes people on the internet think they could do it... which brings us back full circle.

 

Aaaaand for the record, ECM's have existed since the early 80's.

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Honestly I don't see any reason why all cars everywhere can't just be driven from the start. Most of them would likely need heavy, time consuming repairs to become functional (with a distinct lack of spare parts to get them functional) to balance things out. But for the most part I just see no reason why a working car has to be a rare thing. I mean most of them are gonna be torn apart for their metals or left abandoned by the side of the road without a passing glance anyway. Maybe this car needs a spare tire or that car needs a new battery. Maybe that one has a faulty alternator or that one needs a new spark plug. It's a good way of limiting the ability to use cars without making some insanely huge deal out of it.

 

I like the idea of using a set of keys to keep cars from being activated, but that should be as a way to keep an "owned" vehicle from being taken without first dealing with the person who owns the keys. (Examples: Having to kill or rob a survivor before stealing their car. Having to lift the keys from their pocket. Or having to loot it from their zombie if they were torn down by a horde and you need a quick way to escape your overrun base). I dislike the idea of having to find keys for an ownerless car abandoned by the side of the road since that feels needlessly complicated for a game. Realistic, yes, but needlessly complicated.

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Unmature means immature.

 

That was pretty easy to figure out.

 

I had to look it up and find it in Urban dictionary. Because "Unmature" is not a word that exist on any other dictionary. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=unmature&go=Go

 

Seriously?

Un- usually a prefix implying not, or incomplete, or the opposite of. Similar prefixes include 'Im' and 'A'.

Immature, Unmature, A-mature... Just because they are not words themselves, does not leave them meaningless when broken down a little bit (imagine how many more words there would be in the English language if every variant of every word, and every prefix were all legitimate words themselves)

 

It seems like you're walking on the very fine line of being [blatently] intolerant of non-native English speakers (there's another one! You could, by definition, probably use 'inmature' and be left with the same definition as immature).

Use your noodle a little bit, and you'll figure out the meaning of almost all the discrepancies in posts that have been translated from another language.

 

Edit: On topic, given the level of realism the PZ Devs strive for, I think some kind of modular mechanics functionality would work in with the gamey-ness best. So any car could be made to function, with the correct functioning parts combined.

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I'm going to get back on subject here and the answer to me being able to hot wire a car is a no. Go outside and into your car because it's extremely difficult :(. However mechanics should know how to get into a locked car or a faster repair and knowledge of everything that has to do with it or a spawned with knowledge maybe go more in depth and make it like different educational knowledge of like engines and stuff :)

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I had to look it up and find it in Urban dictionary. Because "Unmature" is not a word that exist on any other dictionary. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=unmature&go=Go

 

Seriously?

Un- usually a prefix implying not, or incomplete, or the opposite of. Similar prefixes include 'Im' and 'A'.

Immature, Unmature, A-mature... Just because they are not words themselves, does not leave them meaningless when broken down a little bit (imagine how many more words there would be in the English language if every variant of every word, and every prefix were all legitimate words themselves)

 

It seems like you're walking on the very fine line of being [blatently] intolerant of non-native English speakers (there's another one! You could, by definition, probably use 'inmature' and be left with the same definition as immature).

Use your noodle a little bit, and you'll figure out the meaning of almost all the discrepancies in posts that have been translated from another language.

 

 

Getting off topic here. Again I guess..

 

Why write 2 paragraphs when you can use 2 sentences. I am NOT a native english speaker, it took me years to understand the language, so when I don't understand something I look it up, and I don't assume.

 

I think blaming others for not writing things correctly is wrong and perhaps even lazy. 

And I don't understand how you can try to justify words like A-mature as being a synonym of immature. which state or country do you hear this?

 

 

On topic: the only reason I disagree Kajin's Idea (Not fully) it's because I feel like it would be a lot more difficult to keep track of all the usable vehicles (assuming again that most of those are non usable due to keys, parts, etc..) that it would be using the other ideas.

Also if more vehicles are usable, wouldn't that cause some more major RAM consumption? 

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http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/152477/if-the-prefix-a-means-not-shouldnt-await-or-awaiting-mean-not-waiting

As to vehicles being modular, I'm more OK with that than hot-wiring. But, personally, when I think of the zombie apocalypse, I think of cars trapped in grid locks and accidents -- there should be a point where vehicles aren't usable, aren't repairable, or aren't freeable.

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The extent of modularisation I was thinking of was something along the lines of replacing/repairing entire systems at once. Something like having a specific set of complete/working parts together in order for the vehicle to function, with different types of vehicles needing different parts - A bike needing a complete frame and two wheels (unpunctured and not damaged); A scooter needing two wheels, an engine (electric or petrol, maybe even found from a lawnmower or something), a frame, and probably some brakes or controlling mechanisms; A car needing a complete chassis, four wheels, an engine, a minimum of one seat, a steering wheel or control mechanisms.

 

While I don't think that example would be a good idea to incorporate into PZ, it kind of describes the sort of modularisation I'd support being brought in along with vehicles, to both uphold the gamey realism currently in the game, and also reduce the technical knowledge or skill sets required in the real world to accomplish the same tasks.

This way all the vehicles have the potential to be fully functioning, but when encountered, the vast majority are deficient of one or more 'parts', rendering them more as lootable junk/obstacles.

 

Lastly, with regard to the comment about RAM usage... well, it's not really relevant to the number of potentially functioning vehicles, or even the number of fully functioning vehicles, but the implementation of such a system.

Just as an off-the-top-of-my-head example, broken vehicles may be nothing more than containers - the same as a wardrobe, crate, or zombie corpse - which when containing the appropriate vehicle parts are converted into a functional vehicle.

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In addition, in any map cell where there wasn't a player they wouldn't be loaded anyways. So even if they were all fully functional at all times, the load would be minimal unless you were on a huge multiplayer server where everyone was in cells full of cars, constantly.

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Anyways, how hard would it really be to generate particular keys for particular cars?  Each key could just have like an 8-character string (10,000 cars should be enough ;) ) that's unique and matched to a particular car in the world.  A car can only be started with these keys if the strings match.

 

Make the keys spawn in one of three locations: inside the nearest house, on a random zombie nearby, or inside the car itself.  At that point the server's work is done and it's no more resource-consuming than any of the other loot that's sitting in containers constantly.  It's up to the player to track down the keys and try them on nearby cars.

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The biggest problem with keys is this: How do you show the player which car they are belonging to? Actually I had the same problem in my lockpicking mod a while back. People suggested to implement keys for houses which could be found in the world / on zombies, yet there isn't a good way to tell the player "hey this key here belongs to a house at X10010 Y10050".

 

It would work if the keys are already in the car, or if you find them inside of a house with the car being outside. I honestly can't think of any good way to make it work - even in a semi-realistic way.

 

Totally insane and impractical (but cool) would be the implementation of proper street names all around the map. The player could then find wallets containing the ID / Adress of destroyed zombies. If you find a key on them you can then walk to their home and see if it fits - if you are lucky you might even find a car there.

 

But then again, player's would probably argue why so many people left their cars at home in the zombocalypse.

 

I don't know I think I could live with learning "hot wiring" from books, or once your mechanical skill is high enough. It's one of those things where gameplay clashes with realism.

 

 


Also if more vehicles are usable, wouldn't that cause some more major RAM consumption?

 

I think we should leave out NPCs too ... I fear they will take a toll on performance ;)

 

I think blaming others for not writing things correctly is wrong and perhaps even lazy. 

 

So you say that you are wrong and lazy? How ironic... :S

 

Anyway, to put a full stop behind this. If you have a problem with people who don't speak perfect english you might have picked the wrong community to stay in. We welcome people from all over the world and language should never be a barrier for becoming a part of the community. It is okay to tell someone if you can't understand something they said - but we also want you to use your brain to try and understand the meaning (we all do it everyday).

 

All in all be lovely and we won't have a problem.

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The biggest problem with keys is this: How do you show the player which car they are belonging to? Actually I had the same problem in my lockpicking mod a while back. People suggested to implement keys for houses which could be found in the world / on zombies, yet there isn't a good way to tell the player "hey this key here belongs to a house at X10010 Y10050".

 

It would work if the keys are already in the car, or if you find them inside of a house with the car being outside. I honestly can't think of any good way to make it work - even in a semi-realistic way.

Why would you have to label them? I understand that would make it more convienent for gameplay and all, but from a standpoint of realism almost nobody would have their keys labelled. Even so, keys usually modelled after the car company's logo. Even if we can't tell which individual keys are which this would give you an idea of what kinds of cars to be on the lookout for. If we don't want to have different manufacturers then we could have different types of keys for sedans, trucks, SUVs... you guys get the idea.

Beyond that you'd just have to hope there's a logical place you can check if you find a set of keys. If you get keys from a house (or from a zombie in a house) try any cars outside. If you get keys from a zombie outside, check any abandoned cars in the general vicinity. There would be few enough cars in town that you'd have a decent chance of matching a set of keys to a car.

On the highways and outside of town it'd be a different story. You might find keys on a zombie with no cars in sight, or with a bunch of cars gridlocked nearby and no way to quickly know which car they are for or whether the car is boxed in or even there.

I think keys should be renamable so that players can keep better trak of their own keys, but that is about as far as I think that needs to go. I don't see a need to lead the player directly to the thing the key unlocks, although having a zombie spawn with a wallet and home address would be pretty cool.

 

Also if more vehicles are usable, wouldn't that cause some more major RAM consumption?

 

I think we should leave out NPCs too ... I fear they will take a toll on performance ;)

You know, the biggest performance issue for many players is the zombies. Think how much memory would be freed up for stuff like keys if we took the zombies out! :P

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Why would you have to label them? I understand that would make it more convienent for gameplay and all, but from a standpoint of realism almost nobody would have their keys labelled. Even so, keys usually modelled after the car company's logo. Even if we can't tell which individual keys are which this would give you an idea of what kinds of cars to be on the lookout for. If we don't want to have different manufacturers then we could have different types of keys for sedans, trucks, SUVs... you guys get the idea.

 

You are right, that should work too. It won't work with the current spawning system though, since loot is random. TIS would need to find a way to spawn the keys and cars together in logical places.

 

Well I'm looking forward to what they come up with.

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Lots of talk all to say one thing:

 

For the average guy with normal skills, it would never happen. I already explained why trial and error doesn't work, but feel free to keep ignoring it. Bad point is bad.

 

Edit: Not to mention how very little gameplay value it adds per time spent coding and how annoying it would be to be part of something that furthers the ignorant stereotype that hotwiring a car is easy, which then makes people on the internet think they could do it... which brings us back full circle.

 

Aaaaand for the record, ECM's have existed since the early 80's.

 

Seriously, you can start alot of cars by hammering in a screwdriver (older ones), also, many older models you can just make contact between the points on the starter solenoid, this even works on a 2010 Freightliner Argosy. How on earth do you think cars get stolen?  (Granted this is done under the hood).

 

And it adds a hell of a lot more to gameplay than having no way of using the cars, it allows a buildup of a new skill, a useful new profession perhaps, more uses for tools, a use and reason for having a cordless frill, another reason to use batteries or a charger with a generator (when implemented), also when failing the starter can get stuck and burn out, this can attract zombies, and on certain cars it would activate an alarm creating a panic situation attracting zombies.. Say whatever you want but it is possible and it is a skill, whether you like it or not.

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 How on earth do you think cars get stolen?  (Granted this is done under the hood).

Irrelevant. Not that many cars actually get stolen, and of those the vast majority are stolen because the people stealing it found the keys.

 

And it adds a hell of a lot more to gameplay than having no way of using the cars

Utterly irrelevant, there's already going to be a way to use cars. Using more just inundates the world with more, making what should be (later in the game, at least) a rare resource more common arbitrarily.

 

it allows a buildup of a new skill, a useful new profession perhaps

Adding things for the sake of adding things is not a reason to add them. You could add a T-Rex with laser machine guns on it's back. That's a whole new enemy, wow!

 

more uses for tools, a use and reason for having a cordless frill [sic]

 There's already plenty of good uses for tools, and plenty more plausible ones they could add in the mean time.

 

another reason to use batteries or a charger with a generator (when implemented)

There's already a ton of important uses for a generator and a battery that just haven't gotten implemented yet. There's literally no reason to add another- they'd be tremendously important without this.

 

also when failing the starter can get stuck and burn out, this can attract zombies, and on certain cars it would activate an alarm creating a panic situation attracting zombies.

This could already just happen when trying to open car doors or accidentally hitting them with a weapon or bumping them while fighting. Again, no gameplay value added.

 

Say whatever you want but it is possible and it is a skill, whether you like it or not.

Say whatever you want, but I'm right because I said so in this sentence here! (Ya, that's pretty much the only counter for that kind of logic. Sorry)

 

 

All this without mentioning once again that in a small town like Muldraugh, there are no car thieves and thus the probability is high no one would know how to do this. It's okay, though, people have seen it on TV and that's a totally accurate portrayal so I'm sure they'll figure it out.

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I'm sorry if this has gone for too long, but I wanted to air out my opinions on the matter. (hot wiring) I'd want to approach this subject more from the viewpoint of how it could be done correctly to represent semi-realism as with features like building. (this wasn't an argument yet so please don't grab it) :P I would also like if there would be some attempts from the ones that are rebutting the idea of hot wiring to try and imagine any way you would think it could work in game, instead of just hammering it lower, as there are many (me!) who would like it as a semi-realistic idea.

 

-snip-

 

All this without mentioning once again that in a small town like Muldraugh, there are no car thieves and thus the probability is high no one would know how to do this. It's okay, though, people have seen it on TV and that's a totally accurate portrayal so I'm sure they'll figure it out.

 

 

The game is more than just the small town of Muldraugh. And I don't consider it as a valid argument just stating that there are no car thieves. The likelihoods might be low, but not impossible. (now this isn't an argument either, just a correction, hold on)

 

I'm mostly with Robomat here and would accept learning hot wiring (from a strict source though). I'd go with a high skill of car mechanics (3-5) and added to that as maybe a special skill taught from a (car) thief or similar profession NPC. That would make it rare and hard enough to be plausible in my opinion. I don't like the idea of it being from books as there wouldn't be much books on the subject of hot wiring... Also I would think a profession like a thief wouldn't be too far fetched in a game with these settings (I believe we're already getting a burglar from Robomat's mod).

 

One thing that was mentioned either on this topic or some other one is the time of the events! People have seem to forgotten that the cars aren't necessarily modern so therefore I don't think that goes as an argument. Many cars to the mid 90's were and are not "computered" and are possible to hotwire. (this is an argument)

 

Now what I'd do is the same as with Robomat's lockpicking mod and once you gain the skill (or the first point or whatever) to start hot wiring you have a huge chance of breaking the lock or something else (which will render the car useless for all eternity) and a small chance of success simulating that the particular type of hot wiring you know of works for that particular car. Also the success rate would only go so far if it were to be tied to a skill.

 

This should end the conversation that hot wiring different cars would be different (and learning the skill would simulate you knowing to try those different methods). Also it would somewhat counter the fact that all cars aren't hot wireable. Lastly it would set a limit to who will be able to do it. A person surviving long enough to learn it would most likely want to focus on something else. ie. farming, fishing, building, crafting, repairing, mechanics and car mechanics in general.

 

Now. That seems slightly complex and it is, but i do think it would add to gameplay variety and fun, especially late game. Also it would in my opinion be a nice compromise on realism and gameplay. Being said that, I'd perfectly understand if it would be too miniscule of a feature to implement against the work load.

 

TL;DR

All in all I'd like hot wiring, for fun mostly, but I don't want just anyone hot wiring a car.

Offtopic
It's as plausible as forging your own weapons. ;)
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As much as the idea of keys seems the most realistic, it Seems somewhat unpractical for application, in my opinion. 

 

I really feel way to limit availability is fully "fixing" vehicles who are not completely destroyed by completing a set of long/difficult tasks. There's 1 or 2 posts a page back that in my opinion are dead on. I'll Quote them again in the future if I feel like they need to be mentioned again. 

 


 

Also if more vehicles are usable, wouldn't that cause some more major RAM consumption?

 
I think we should leave out NPCs too ... I fear they will take a toll on performance ;)

 


You know, the biggest performance issue for many players is the zombies. Think how much memory would be freed up for stuff like keys if we took the zombies out! :P

 

 


 

I think blaming others for not writing things correctly is wrong and perhaps even lazy. 

 

So you say that you are wrong and lazy? How ironic... :S

 

===================================================================================

 

Prove your point. 

Also as mentioned before, I am not a native english speaker. It took me a while, and a lot of work to be able to read write and talk it.

 

Also, to @robomat and crazy eyes.

 

RAM Performance already IS an issue on MP servers. If there's multiple vehicles running loading different cells x2,x3 times faster than the average player. It MAY be a problem for MP servers. Also the topic of this thread is "Working cars should be a RARE commodity" which I think you both have approved of the idea. 

 

Not having many working vehicles, would make them not as easily accessible. And as by-product, it might Save some RAM usage.

 

Who knows how NPC's may react in the game. And who knows, there may even the the chance that they could consume a lot of Memory and could be useless in MP. (I really hope that is not the case) 

 

And Zombies do crash MP servers if there's too many of them at once. Already destroyed 2 servers. (fast professional servers) 

 

 

 

Also what is this being lovely most of you keep talking about!?

 

I looked it up, because I truly thought it meant like pretty woman. 

Well it turns out it is?

Means attractive, handsome, good looking, a glamorous woman or girl..? 

its adjective for physical feminine beauty.

 

 

Why are we trying to be attractive glamorous girls!? Who are we trying to pick up?

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Can't tell if serious, Eblanc. Most semi-non-English speakers haven't had this much trouble on this forum, nor argued over points of speech or grammar to this degree before.

Look at the forum rules. Be lovely essentially means to be polite and not pick fights.

Zombies don't crash servers -- the only instance I've seen where there has been an issue is Alice Cooper's server, where the presence of massive amounts of dead bodies somehow had a negative impact (whether they truly did or not, it'll probably take a while to find out). Now, you may think this is somehow due to massive RAM, but zombie-corposes seem to be one of the smaller objects to exist, in a game that already works with millions of objects.

The game itself, in its current state, can operate under 400 MB of RAM. Because the map is chunk based, any RAM usage is likely going to become simply this: (number of players * current chunks). Vechiles shouldn't impact this in any real way, as it'll still only require the immediate area around each player to be active.

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Can't tell if serious, Eblanc. Most semi-non-English speakers haven't had this much trouble on this forum, nor argued over points of speech or grammar to this degree before.

Look at the forum rules. Be lovely essentially means to be polite and not pick fights.

Zombies don't crash servers -- the only instance I've seen where there has been an issue is Alice Cooper's server, where the presence of massive amounts of dead bodies somehow had a negative impact (whether they truly did or not, it'll probably take a while to find out). Now, you may think this is somehow due to massive RAM, but zombie-corposes seem to be one of the smaller objects to exist, in a game that already works with millions of objects.

The game itself, in its current state, can operate under 400 MB of RAM. Because the map is chunk based, any RAM usage is likely going to become simply this: (number of players * current chunks). Vechiles shouldn't impact this in any real way, as it'll still only require the immediate area around each player to be active.

 

That was one, the other one (that i know of) was brutal server. Where the admin spawned lots of zombies. And we all started lagging out and getting disconnected. There's pictures there on the server page, It wasn't even that many zombies. Maybe 1 FULL Block of zombies spread on a 4 block radius. I couldn't even look out a window without freezing in the game. 

 

And those 2 are pretty much the only servers I knew, so I'm assuming there's probably more problems (or will be in the future) with other servers.

 

 

I think the car comment got taken out of context. Someone suggested all vehicles should be accessible for driving, and I told him, aside that I didn't agree with the fact that cars should be that easily attainable, that It could slow game performance. 

To which I can't say I'm sure, they're not even out. But if I was to speculate, I'd say 8 people (or even way less) driving cars on different directions on a MP server could probably cause some performance issues.

 

 

Edit: Are you sure on the Ram>? I have 2 GB's Close all processes (Even explorer) run the game at minimal settings and low Res, and I still stutter a bit, MP seems to be where i find most problems, unexpected stuttering, and freezing, Disconnected sometimes glitch deaths. The later is not so common, so it's usually a pretty enjoyable experience. The game consumes 1.3 of RAM, or so says my task manager.

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