Homemade concrete

[Wilson SDS]

 Hello friends, take a while, and listen. (With Sean Connery voice)

 

I would like to talk about homemade concrete, i read some threads about mining in this forum, i know that making iron from blocks of the floor isn't what the community or the dev's have in mid, like myself as well. But about concrete, and it's a realistic possibility for doing it, if you have the little basic knowledge about it.

 

For doing this work out, a character alone would take a year, but i guess they will have nothing else to do besides don't being eaten, and everyone would like to have a solid and warm place to live inside. Besides concrete is already in the game.

 

So i took a look in what does have underneath Muldraugh and West point. And guess what, there doesn't have any iron deposits, it's mostly carbonate rocks (limestone), karstic caves, gas, sand and clay deposits

 

West Point is the only place that you can find a suitable occurrence of clay.

Both West Point and Muldraugh has sand deposits.

Just in Muldraugh we find carbonate and gas.

 

So whats the magic? It's kinda simple, just mine some carbonate that occurs in almost the hole area of Muldraugh, There shouldn't be so much trouble finding an visible occurrence, so we can skip most of the digging, but i guess at some point a spade will be needed. You can identify limestone adding vinegar on it, if it fizzles, you have it.

The tools needed, an pickaxe to mine it, and a sledgehammer to make the granulometry homogeneous and small, the smaller the better.  

 

To transform carbonate to cement we need to heat the carbonate, so we can remove the CO2 of if. No use putting in the fireplace, we need to build a something stronger and bigger. I'm talking about an oven or a kiln.

 

Now the hard part, to make a suitable oven, we need clay, and clay we can find it just on West Point, so there's a logistic problem, but nothing that can't be solved with a wheelbarrow and lots of determination. Hahahahaha;

With the clay, you will also need some beer or coca-cola bottles, some paper and patience, and follow these easy instructions. 

The oven itself has to be bigger than the one in the video, so you can fill with the broken limestone and it would be good if you build a respirator at its back, so you breath the air that comes out, it can be toxic.

 

After built the oven, you have to feed it for a couple hours (2 to 4), simple wood is enough (uses a considerable amount, i say 2 logs).

 

Now we have something called quicklime, this beauty has to be sealed inside a garbage bag, or a plastic bag, so it dont enter in contact if air and water, or else you have to burn it again. Since we have quicklime you can make slag lime, for that we must add water slowly (this process can badly hurt you if you make it fast, with this you can also make homemade bombs or explosive traps =D) 3 to 4 parts of water to 1 part of lime. EDITED: (USE THE SLEDGEHAMMER TO PULVERIZE THE LIME). And vuala, we have cement.

 

Cement to concrete we need sand and water.

 

 

Final considerations

Making cement, or concrete definitively has to be an end game objective hahaha, but its doable, even more in Muldraugh. 

 

[Wilson SDS]

Building an oven also can be used to cook, and to keep your house warm.

[Wilson SDS]

My deal is this, if the community approve this, i can make an georeferenced geology map of Muldraugh and West Point above the one of the game. So the dev´s know exactly where realistically the minerals are.

[Rathlord]

There's a lot of problems with this, but I'll just hit on the two big ones:

 

1) Requires a huge amount of foreknowledge- about the terrain and geology, and about the actual process. This is information... probably no one in all of Knox County even possesses offhand. You're meant to play as an average person in PZ, not a genius with all of the knowledge of the world memorized. It's part of the design goals of PZ to just buy a normal guy. This is wayyyy off base with this.

 

2) More importantly in the big scheme of things, though, is that this would require a tremendous amount of programming and system development to add something that's both already in the game and fairly implausible and that fairly few players would ever make use of. It would be a colossal waste of time.

[Rikashey]

I didn't read the OP because it's too long and I'm too tired.

 

But I was down at Home Depot the other day and saw bricks and the concrete caulking stuff and thought to myself how simple it would be to make a brick wall.

 

Lay down the base layer of concrete, stack layer of bricks, add another layer of concrete on top, rinse & repeat.

 

[EnigmaGrey]

I didn't read the OP because it's too long and I'm too tired.

I've seen this from you before.

So, let me address this now: either don't write a post containing that sentiment again or don't post. It's very disrespectful to someone who has taken the time to write a post and has also found the courage to submit it.

[XxZeraphinexX]

sounds intressting at least with the clay part making bricks isn´t rocket sience and use clay itself as glue between the bricks and you can build oven, shed or even simple houses at least some walls

and the good thing about that, clay gives rooms a good temp all year, which means in small usage it could work as a fridge or at least something to keep stuff a little cooler then the outside temp.

[harakka]

How long do you reckon it'd take, from one guy going rock mining with a pickaxe, to get any useful amount of stuff out of it?

[FawkesGaming]

How long do you reckon it'd take, from one guy going rock mining with a pickaxe, to get any useful amount of stuff out of it?

It depends on whether the pickaxe is wooden, stone, iron, gold or diamond

Joking aside, if I remember correctly from GCSE, dont you need electrolysis to separate the ore from the rock?

[Aenye Deithven]

There's a lot of problems with this, but I'll just hit on the two big ones:

 

1) Requires a huge amount of foreknowledge- about the terrain and geology, and about the actual process. This is information... probably no one in all of Knox County even possesses offhand. You're meant to play as an average person in PZ, not a genius with all of the knowledge of the world memorized. It's part of the design goals of PZ to just buy a normal guy. This is wayyyy off base with this.

 

2) More importantly in the big scheme of things, though, is that this would require a tremendous amount of programming and system development to add something that's both already in the game and fairly implausible and that fairly few players would ever make use of. It would be a colossal waste of time.

Ad. 1) I believe it could be done with secondary school level of knowledge. Knowledge of mineral deposits in the area aside, of course. Going back to my school days, there was quite a bit of talk about making cement/concrete in both the chemical and technological aspect. Sure, most of that, I've forgotten, but the books are still there, so I'm one read away from knowing how is it done.

 

Actually, this gives me an idea - why not have some secondary skills learnable from books ? We do have the "xxx for dummies" in virtually every country across the world, so why can a Kentucky person not go to a library / book shop and read some instructables between bashing zed heads ?

 

Theory is just theory and it would take a lot of practice to get everything going (to exemplify, clay has to be heated in a certain way, so as not to compromise its mechanical properties by rapid escape of the water bound within the material). One could start from simple clay bricks and gradually progress to more "advanced" kilning.

Having this covered, why stop at clay/concrete ? Clay cups can be further kilned with some more materials to obtain a nice glazing, which, while not exactly sophisticated, does look pretty nice.

 

Ad. 2) Well, this is an issue. I'm not a programmer, so I can't say how much work would be necessary to introduce such a feature. Couldn't it be a part of the natural tiles system, like another layer, where one could bestow resources (and obligatory indian burial grounds) upon the map ?

It would be wonderful to enrich the PZ world a bit, but that may be "beta-talk" for the future.

How long do you reckon it'd take, from one guy going rock mining with a pickaxe, to get any useful amount of stuff out of it?

Depends on stamina and luck - if he hit a large spot, rich in clay / limestone, it might take a day or two to gather the necessary resources.

Joking aside, if I remember correctly from GCSE, dont you need electrolysis to separate the ore from the rock?

Depends on the metal you want to extract from the ore. Smelting iron ore with a reductive agent such as coal actually yields steel. The main source of trouble would be finding iron ore. Keeping in mind with Wilson's mention that iron ore is quite rare in the area, melting down scrap metal might prove to be more sensible.

[Rathlord]

Again, there's just no possible reason for this. When you could either:

 

A) Add bricks and caulk as an item that are realistically found in stores across the world, or

 

B) Add some weird mining system that's not realistic at all and takes vastly more steps and dev time

 

the answer is blisteringly obvious.

[Wilson SDS]

There's a lot of problems with this, but I'll just hit on the two big ones:

 

1) Requires a huge amount of foreknowledge- about the terrain and geology, and about the actual process. This is information... probably no one in all of Knox County even possesses offhand. You're meant to play as an average person in PZ, not a genius with all of the knowledge of the world memorized. It's part of the design goals of PZ to just buy a normal guy. This is wayyyy off base with this.

 

2) More importantly in the big scheme of things, though, is that this would require a tremendous amount of programming and system development to add something that's both already in the game and fairly implausible and that fairly few players would ever make use of. It would be a colossal waste of time.

 

 

1) Foreknowledge - Like making a kindling, a campfire, cooking, carpentry, shooting, and the worst, farming. But it can be learned. Its not so huge amount of information, all you need to know its that heating limestone for some time and then adding water slowly and them pulverizing it, you have a homemade cement. Its not like the game doesn't have a construction worker to be selected...

About having the all information in the world memorized, you don't need, like said before all information is in elementary books, and in the game you have access to some educational facilities. Imagine all the other possibilities that an school can hold, the fact that i have to make it secure so in the next time that i have to come back its safe for me.

Isn't one of the new things that will be added in the game is a build helper? So... what's the problem? Add this to one of the game craftings styles.

 

2) The engine is already done, all you need is to add some oriented objects, and another variable in the floor, and the art. Another thing is, this cant be done in time to the release date, ok, but then what? DLCs, yes, how about at least considerate this for later.

EDITED: Sorry i don't now much of programming, or the engine of this game, i may be wrong in how long it may take, but in the other hand would surely make players on this game a way more longer.

sounds intressting at least with the clay part making bricks isn´t rocket sience and use clay itself as glue between the bricks and you can build oven, shed or even simple houses at least some walls

and the good thing about that, clay gives rooms a good temp all year, which means in small usage it could work as a fridge or at least something to keep stuff a little cooler then the outside temp.

 

About rocket science, i guess the roman's discovered the concrete formula, like some 2000 years ago. 

How long do you reckon it'd take, from one guy going rock mining with a pickaxe, to get any useful amount of stuff out of it?

 

The reckon is kinda simple, you walk with a vinegar bottle, you see a rock, you pour some (a tablespoon of it), if it frizzles you have a limestone.

Or else, you dig, till you find the rock horizon, you put vinegar, if it frizzles, you have limestone.

All that has to be added is some well placed rocks outcrops and may or not react to vinegar. (the same can be made in the underneath layer of rocks).

 

The reaction with vinegar is instantaneous.

[Wilson SDS]

Again, there's just no possible reason for this. When you could either:

 

A) Add bricks and caulk as an item that are realistically found in stores across the world, or

 

B) Add some weird mining system that's not realistic at all and takes vastly more steps and dev time

 

the answer is blisteringly obvious.

 

A) That does not have the same resistance that regular concrete, and has finite amount of resources, besides you can't make a floor with just caulk.

 

B) Weird, sorry i guess is my fault, i should have explained better. But not being realistic i cant see it has a valid argument, the steps can be simplified like many other actions in the game, like hitting a tree with an axe and dropping clean logs, or breaking doors if a crowbar and dropping boards. And the best one, making the land suitable for farming, its not just making it soft you know? 

[Wilson SDS]

Ahh yea, all this works isn't just for concrete, you can add places that has underneath water, gas and caves. That has a huge importance in survivability, because gasoline after some months spoils, and karstic water is very much drinkable and pollution safe. And hidden caves are sure a nice hiding spot for looters. But its theme for other conversation.

[Wilson SDS]

About gas, its possible, and all you have to do there is... open the valve. All the supply installations are already made.

 

http://lge-ku.com/lge/muldraugh_openhouse.pdf

 

but there are easy ways to survey natural gas, and storage it also.

[EnigmaGrey]

Most I could think of is repurposing poured concrete and mortar -- finding lime and bags of this stuff in any hardware store should likely be possible in-game though (since we can find bags of cement already). Their weight would probably guarantee they're not horded.

I just can't see any utility in making the stuff from scratch -- though I do like the idea of building a clay oven by itself.

[Wilson SDS]

Most I could think of is repurposing poured concrete and mortar -- finding lime and bags of this stuff in any hardware store should likely be possible in-game though (since we can find bags of cement already). Their weight would probably guarantee they're not horded.

I just can't see any utility in making the stuff from scratch -- though I do like the idea of building a clay oven by itself.

 

Sure no one would make concrete with could find it full amounts of it in stores, but when i played i didn't saw that many cement available, maybe making it loot more common. But if not, it's a finite resource. Maybe having a way of making extra concrete would add a longer playtime in game. many ppl has different objectives, if the desire of someone is to build a impenetrable fort that asks a large amount of resources, why deny that? 

[Kajin]

If you're gonna use any kind of adhesive substance to hold things together, I'd probably just go with clay. There's an easy abundance of the stuff. Just dig it up, clean it out as best as you can, and pack it down in between the bricks or the rocks or whatever it is you're using to build. It wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as something made from concrete, but it might even hold together for whatever purpose you're intending for it.

[Wilson SDS]

Sorry, but i must disagree, isn't like just dig it up, this is minecraft.

 

In Muldraugh most of the clay has some considerable amounts of Kaolinite if not pure in some cases. 

 

Bibliographic reference : Geology and Refractory Clay Deposits of the Haldeman and Wrigley Quadrangles, Kentucky. 1962, Patterson, Sam H.; Hosterman, John W. Section on Coal Resources by Huddle, John Warfield USGS Bulletin: 1122-F.

 

Kaolinite is a refractory clay, it means that has a good resistance to thermal energy, perfect for making a light structure that greatly supports heat, like an oven. But this clay is expansive, it means that this little girl gets bigger when she drinks water, much more than her sisters, but the expansion will be not uniform, resulting the destruction of the brick, that's why it as to be build in doors or somehow protected from rains. I guess that most of the clay bricks that you see on the stores are brought from West Point or Louisville, or at least part of its clay is used in a mixture. And they probably (almost 100% sure) add Portland Cement also, at least 10% in it´s weight.

 

Clay houses are used only on dry weather places, but Muldraugh is too humid, this bricks that must have 10% of cement already (you can trade the cement for straws, but isn't much more efficient) must be sealed with mortar. And the ceiling must be made of wood that again must be sealed, because if you use a clay ceiling it would eventually be eroded. This kinda of houses cant have more that 2 floors, and they must have be reinforced with heavy wood or concrete girders, specially when you have to use a wood ceiling, that sure will be heavy.

 

Everyone that lives in Muldraugh must know how constant the tornadoes are, and how destructive they can be, would you still want to live in a clay house?

 

And the last and most annoying, if you do a clay house, you have 2 options, live with the constant smell of manure or with a infestation of bugs, for me not much a the most pleasure of options.

[Rathlord]

Again, the whole idea is pointless because both concrete and bricks both exist in the real world to an extent that mining would never be a concern for an individual.

This is like buying a jetpack to get up some steps. It's overkill and it's a waste of time.

[Wilson SDS]

Ahh yea, im not saying that you have to make a house of just concrete, man that would be epic but totally masochist. I was thinking to make a brick (clay bricks, ones mixed with cement) wall with concrete between the layer of bricks, then overlay the wall with concrete. And finally add some concrete girders.

 

I would even suggest that when you break a wall with the sledgehammer, had a chance of dropping some bricks. 

[Wilson SDS]

Again, the whole idea is pointless because both concrete and bricks both exist in the real world to an extent that mining would never be a concern for an individual.

This is like buying a jetpack to get up some steps. It's overkill and it's a waste of time.

 

Was a concern for me, and for the looks like it, many people liked the idea. I admit, i would never think about planting cotton and making my own clothes, or carpentry, i would just drag furnishings from other houses. But if i wanted i would like to have the opportunity to do it. For me that's the hole idea of this game, to live what you always wanted in a zombie apocalypse.

 

And and about mining, i was asking nothing more that some outcrop rocks in the game, or a abandoned quarry.

[Rathlord]

Unfortunately this is a very small dev team and practical and efficient decisions on what to add are a priority. Food is a finite resource that is essential for survival- hence, hunting farming and fishing.

But concrete, as I've said, is already in the game- adding another way to get it that's much less realistic and practical just doesn't make sense- being neat and interesting just isn't enough to make it worth adding. We can easily just put enough concrete bags into the game world so that people can build their hearts out without making an awkward and impractical new system that few people would ever experience.

Further, I still hold that you're highly exaggerating the readiness of availability of this knowledge- you mentioned construction workers above, but that's a bit silly. Construction work is unskilled labor. They aren't trained in mining and crafting concrete. They're trained in mixing and pouring, neither of which are relevant.

Further yet, I think finding print resources on this is much less common than you're making it out to be. I'd make the supposition that you're part of the generation who grew up with access to the internet and this don't understand that print materials are not nearly as readily available and all inclusive as the internet. I would again wager (and again pure supposition on my part) that most local libraries would not have anything this in depth on concrete production from rock to product- most libraries do not stock technical manuals, especially small town ones like Muldraugh. The chances of finding these in home is even more minuscule.