Different zombies tatics

[Wilson SDS]

In the game we have like basically 3 different types of zombies, a regular zombie, a somewhat faster, and the one on the floor, some may say that's enough, but in terms of end game i don´t think so.

 

So i ll suggest new types of encounters that the players may find it:

 

Maybe a burned zombie (a more horrific one, like a more decomposed one) that has more impact on panic.

 

A zombie that makes less noise.

 

A more faster zombie (in less quantity).

 

Adding a chance to an finalized zombie to get up again after some time (this maybe could create an trait called... double tap, removing this chance).

 

A zombie with an weapon like an knife, blunt weapon, with low reach.

 

A zombie that you knew, so your character hesitate to attack (chance of happening, may be your former mother, brother, friend), the game have to tell you that, and you can only hit that specific zombie after some time (a trait, stone heart, could give you immunity or resistance). 

 

A zombie that can call others in a nearby area, a good idea to use guns, or sneaking it.

 

Zombie hordes with higher density.

[Wilson SDS]

Also:

 

1) Chance of dropping your weapon, or anything at hands when extremely panicked, losing the control of the character that would be running (away from the zombie, or horde). 

2) When a zombie grabs you, a chance of you being knocked, and being able to move while on the floor, kicking or rolling (the animation or rolling on the floor could also be used to help yourself when you are in fire).

[Etsamaru]

Bold the Agrees

Striking the No Way

Nothing for the I dont mind.

 

Maybe a burned zombie (a more horrific one, like a more decomposed one) that has more impact on panic.

 

A zombie that makes less noise.

 

A more faster zombie (in less quantity).

 

Adding a chance to an finalized zombie to get up again after some time (this maybe could create an trait called... double tap, removing this chance).

 

A zombie with an weapon like an knife, blunt weapon, with low reach. <-- Never never please.

 

A zombie that you knew, so your character hesitate to attack (chance of happening, may be your former mother, brother, friend), the game have to tell you that, and you can only hit that specific zombie after some time (a trait, stone heart, could give you immunity or resistance). (This might damage the Sandboxness of the game.)

 

A zombie that can call others in a nearby area, a good idea to use guns, or sneaking it.

Special infected are confirmed to not be in the game (ruins the game). Zombies already call each other via moans and their own movement.

 

Zombie hordes with higher density. (I think they are fine this is more of a CPU limit.)

[Wilson SDS]

i just think that there´s must be more variances in the encounters tactical options, so i´m trying to help in finding a solution. Denying any variances in the zombie itself (besides it´s quantity) closes a huge door, i´m not saying that we should do like left 4 dead (L4D), making super zombies, but there are may different things that could be added.

 

If there is panic, why not an hesitation to attack a zombie that was your friend? The zombie itself isn't stronger or faster, its just something that often happens on films, other games, and would be something very real if a zombie apocalypse happened. Actually, this is what would kill more people in the zombie apocalypse.

 

When i suggested the faster zombie, i was not thinking in one that run faster then you running, but a zombie that you must have to run from to get a good distance to strike, hardly i found a zombie that simply walking i couldn't get away from. Maybe making their path finding a little longer could also help, because they loose you too easy, again, i'm not saying that they should be all great trackers that can come after you a mile away. Maybe if some zombies could pursue the characters long enough that if you don't find a hiding or fighting spot they had to fight it in the open and tired.

 

Zombies with a simple weapon at hand could do some damage that would be treatable adding more value to the medical items, in this game, while in combat or you don't get a scratch or you have 90% (i'm guessing the %, but i'm sure that it's high) of death. Now about the fact that a zombie can or cant keep holding something that was already holding while alive is the theme of a good discussion, when something dies it doesn't stiffen? How about something that you would be holding strongly when alive, when dead the zombie wouldn't keep holding? He may open his hand to instinctively try to hold you, but it's the instinct of a former human, that may go to ether open his hand and grab, or use the weapon, because surely was the last movement that he was doing before being attacked. Well that's too much speculation, the fact is, that would add something good in the game or no? The zombie wouldn't be special besides holding some simple weapon, no mutation, no superpower, just a simple zombie.

 

About the chance of a zombie getting up again after being finalized, may you say at first hand when its enough to hit, to kill something that was already dead? Just because you heard a splash sound, ahh ok the splash sound, its dead, and will never more bother me. In real life, do everyone hit the zombie head till its a green goo pool in the floor? I really don't think so, ahh ok, we are using ourselves as a referential point, we, that are talking about this on the internet definitively would hit it till being sure of the kill, but a lot of people would't.

 

About a zombie that can call others in the nearby area, the others may do, but one that does better, there are zombies that are faster and tougher, why not add a variance in calling others as well? So define this special that you are saying, what make a zombie special? The fact the he is better then others is some way, this game have it already, and then is it not spoiled? I guess not. I think that being special is a special mutation, like the T virus on resident evil, that there are hunters, zombie dogs, huge arms with eyes and etc. Now a simple zombie that can scream better then others, that isn't so special.

 

When i spoke about density, i was not saying more zombies in the same area, but more in a lesser area. I mean, the quantity may be the same but group then better so i cant kite and solo then all. Or link the groups somehow that if you hit one be sure that a group may go after you, not always, but if this could happen occasionally would change the tactical approach of some times.   

[EnigmaGrey]

They're special if they resemble anything from L4D, Dead State (the mini-series), various Of the Living Dead spoof films, and 28 Days/Weeks.

Anything that isn't basic Romero-esque shamblers (sans memory), basically.

[Wilson SDS]

where can i find about Romero-esque shamblers (sans memory)?

[Wilson SDS]

Romero Zombies

- also known as the shamblers or walkers.

- as seen on George Romero’s zombie movies, Dawn of the Dead, Night of the Living Dead, Day of the Dead, Land of the Dead, Diary of the Dead, and other Romero inspired zombie movies.

 

Is that it?

[Wilson SDS]

So... i just saw the first and more classic movie of Romero, Night of the Living Dead (1968).

At 0:01:00 till 0:10:00 The first zombie run fast, tried to open a car door and used a STONE to break the car window. Pursued an women that was running across trees and breaches and then through a long field.

At 16min, another zombie breaks a car flashlight with a stone at hand.

At 18 min, zombie dies just with a blow, shot in the head.

At 20 min, the zombies were afraid of fire, they turned away from it.

At 40 min, its clear that there are variances between the zombies strength, some are weak, others the strength or normal man, and others a little more.

At 56 min, its know that the zombies are anyone that was not buried, bitten or no. The cause most likely was of interplanetary (venus) radiation.

At 1:21:30 A zombie grabs a CLUB and strike against a door. And another uses a stone to break a window.

WOOT ZOMBIE CHILD AT 1:24:40!!! Being a child doesnt matter, what is important is how his mother reacted, she couldnt attack her own kid and died. PS the zombie child was using an WEAPON.

At 1:25:45, a girl saw her dead brother zombie and couldnt attack him. And she died.

 

 

Now i ll See the Dawn of the Dead 1978.

0:22:40 a zombie tried to open a door by the knob.

0:24:20 zombie kids, they bitten someone, and he didn't become a zombie because it.

0:29:00 When the survivor arrive at the mall, one of then says:

"Kind of instinct, memory, what they used to do, this was an important place on their lives"

0:34:30 A zombie sited by a tree inside a fountain, grab coins in the floor and examine then.

0:50:05 A girl uses a flare to keep a zombie away from her, it means that the zombies also are afraid of fire.

0:55:30 A zombie using a hockey stick.

at the same point, a guy on the radio says:

" Intelligence? Seemingly little or no reasoning power, but basic skills remain of more remembered behaviors from the normal life. There are reports of these creatures using tools, but even these actions are the most primitive, the use of external articles such as bludgeons. I might point out to you that even animals will adopt the basic use of tools in these matters. These creatures are nothing but pure motorized instinct  "

1:03:00 A zombie grabs a crowbar in the floor and uses to break an window

1:07:00 A zombie grabbed an rifle about at 0:40:00 is still carrying it (not in the shooting position) 

1:08:00 Roger (one of the main characters) was severely bitten twice, he became a zombie because of it.

1:13:40 Survivors using fire to drive of zombies

2:03:00 Zombies climbing a ladder to the roof.

 

 

Day Of The Dead - (1985)

0:13:00

- Rickles: "They are scared, they know what happens to Frankenstein gets them."

- Woman: "If you are right Rickles... Then they are learning. They are actually learning"

0:20:00 There is a conversation with a doctor, and he basically tells that the zombies work on instinct and their deepest memories and they can learn new things.

0:50:00 Appears a zombie called Bub, he use simple tools, like razors, he can identify himself at the mirror, he opens a book, and he doesn't see a doctor as a lunch, he almost speak, he does military salute to other soldiers and most of all, at 0:56:00 he  HOLD A PISTOL, COCK IT, AIM IT AND FIRE IT!!!!!!!! (hopefully there was no bullets). After in the movie, he release himself, and he feels the lost of his dead doctor and go avenge him. He gets a gun, and shoot he bad guys, and eventually kill them.

 

 

I ll see the other movies and will be editing this post and report anything that i find it special

[ToastedFishSandwich]

PZ zombies probably aren't going to be using tools, also the devs have confirmed that there's no memory.

[Wilson SDS]

I understand that, but i had to make my point clear.

 

Im not saing that In day 0 all zombies should have shotguns, zombies, specially the Romero-esque shambler, in all movies, they shown an evolution of behavior, and all their movies are connected in the same world. In all movies they make its clear that they have some intelligence and are learning constantly.

 

The game should, for example following the logical patter of Romero:

Day 0: Zombies caring no weapons at hands

Day 30: Few zombies, like 1 in 100, caring a simple weapon at hand, like a club or a butter knife, but not attacking with it yet.

Day 60: Few zombies, like 3 to 100, caring a simple weapon at hand, like a club or a butter knife, but attacking with it (the interval of the attacks should be big enough so the player can avoid it and counter it).

Day 90: Few zombies, like 5 to 100, using this simple weapons.

The rate between armed and unarmed will be fixed, or not, because the game should be getting harder and harder.

At some point on Day 360 or 720, the zombies starts to use pistols, in a proportion 1 to 1000.

[Wilson SDS]

but besides weapons, there are lots of things that can be added:

 

- Zombies Fear fire.

- Zombies in time, starts to walk in larger and tight groups.

- Zombies, in time, start to ambush (that clearly happens in the movies)

- Zombies opening unlocked doors, turning the knob.

- Zombies, in time, pursuing at longer and longer distances.

 

I mean on day 0, the game could be full of meat pinhatas, but after some time, 1 or 2 months they start to work better as a team, and slowly they AI will be getting better and better, adapting, learning. Exactly what happens on the movies, and this would be the real  Romero-esque shamblers that you all talk about.

[Wilson SDS]

Well, sure if my definition of Romero-esque shamblers are right.

 

But if it is, and this game are not using this zombie in its full specialty. Then i see like a big of an offence mentioning we are using just Romero-esque shamblers, but disagreeing in what really makes then different.

 

Most of all, this game is a simulator, and i never heard of a simulator being bad for being the most realistic possible, even if the real is questionable.

[Wilson SDS]

And its not about memory, its about instinct, the zombies attack and eat flesh meat because the instinct of eating. But we in actual society have our survival instincts all messed up with or jobs.

 

And that's not about memory or remembering your name, or who was your mother. All Romero-esque shamblers that i saw killed close people while alive on site. The only zombie so far in the movies that i saw and read about Romero was this Bub that were an ex military guy. He didn't had any memory of the persons that he knew while alive, but since he was a shambler, it's like he started a new live of experiences. But clearly he was a first of a evolution, like Cesar on Planet of the Apes.

 

In the Dawn of the Dead (1985), when the bird boy, the helicopter pilot died, he went straight to his hiding place, was a corridor closed by a secret door, in his deepest instincts he knew that there was a safe place, and there was food. He tried to to kill his fellow friends. (he was holding a pistol).

[Rathlord]

It's not going to happen. Period. It directly contradicts statements from the devs. You can be pedantic about it all day, that doesn't change the fact that it's not going to happen because:

A) this isn't what the devs want from their game, and

B) this isn't what most of the community wants, either.

Combat is going to be varied when npc friends and foes entertye mix. No reason to change the zombies and ruin the game for 99% of us just for a short term solution.

[Rathlord]

And all this is not to mention you're entirely ignoring the Brooks side of the lore, which is where almost 100% of the basis for the zombies' cognitive functions come from.

[EnigmaGrey]

I don't think I was clear when I said "sans memory."

I mean Romero's depictions of zombies without this:
 

 

- Zombies Fear fire.

- Zombies in time, starts to walk in larger and tight groups. (since this is just basic hording)

- Zombies, in time, start to ambush (that clearly happens in the movies)

- Zombies opening unlocked doors, turning the knob.

- Zombies, in time, pursuing at longer and longer distances.

[Wilson SDS]

It's not going to happen. Period. It directly contradicts statements from the devs. You can be pedantic about it all day, that doesn't change the fact that it's not going to happen because:

A) this isn't what the devs want from their game, and

B) this isn't what most of the community wants, either.

Combat is going to be varied when npc friends and foes entertye mix. No reason to change the zombies and ruin the game for 99% of us just for a short term solution.

 

Sorry if i wrote too much or offended someone, that was not my intention, but i was insistent because i couldn't find something that mach this in the big ns list

 

         Aerosol Can + Lighter = Flamethrower

[n]    Beginning the game before the infection

[n]    Children or babies

[n]    An ending or any game over other than death

[n]    First Person or other viewpoint changes including camera rotation

[n]    Immunity/Cure

[n]    Military Aid

        Mini Maps

[n]    Morality or Karma meter

          Nudity

          Nukes

[n]    Overpowered weapons/specific firearms

          Overpowered Vehicles/Tanks

[n]    Personal Hygiene (going to the bathroom, etc.)

          Playing as a zombie

[n]    Porting/Console Version

[n]    Random generated maps

[n]    Rape

[n]    Respawning/Quicksaving

[n]    Sex

[n]    "Special" Infected or any type of superhuman zombies

          Specific named weapons (such as AK47, M14, etc.)

[n]    Unlimited/large amounts of ammo and weapons

[n]    Voiceover

[n]    Zombie Beasts or Infected Animals

[n]    Zombie Camo, or Using Zombie Guts as a Disguise

 

Then, like i just arrived in the community i didn't see any no about it, by the contrary, i saw many people suggesting things alike. 

And all this is not to mention you're entirely ignoring the Brooks side of the lore, which is where almost 100% of the basis for the zombies' cognitive functions come from.

 

May you please indicate me some links that i can read about this Brooks side of the lore? I would be very grateful.

 

Thanks

 

I don't think I was clear when I said "sans memory."

I mean Romero's depictions of zombies without this:

 

 

- Zombies Fear fire.

- Zombies in time, starts to walk in larger and tight groups. (since this is just basic hording)

- Zombies, in time, start to ambush (that clearly happens in the movies)

- Zombies opening unlocked doors, turning the knob.

- Zombies, in time, pursuing at longer and longer distances.

 

 

Sorry, i think its my fault, where i can read about this sans memory? I would be very grateful.

 

Thanks

[syfy]

the word Sans means "without" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sans

 

so a zombie without memory would not be able to remember the steps needed to accomplish something like turning a doorknob

[Wilson SDS]

the word Sans means "without" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sans

 

so a zombie without memory would not be able to remeber the steps needed to accomplish something like turning a doorknob

 

Serious? hahahaha and i was like crazy searching in the internet about this "sans memories" hahahahahaha Well i tried even google translator, he didn't translate also. But thanks.

[syfy]

i had a hunch that word was posing an issue, it's not used all that often as many people simply don't know it or have rarely heard it.

[Rathlord]

Brooks wrote both "The Zombie Survival Guide" (highly recommended) and "World War Z" (also highly recommended, not to be confused with the movie of the same name which shared essentially nothing in common).

[Wilson SDS]

Sorry to come here again and ask, but i have to. 

 

Besides the use of the weapons, that its all clear for me why not using it.

 

I would like a answer about these tree ideas.

 

The use of an impact when facing a zombie that you had a sentimental bond, is also something bad to the game?

The use of a zombie that cause more impact to panic

The chance of a zombie not being finalized right (even after the splash sound), and coming again.

[Seiko Yamada]

 

Also:

 

1) Chance of dropping your weapon, or anything at hands when extremely panicked, losing the control of the character that would be running (away from the zombie, or horde). 

 No no no nonono no about that one.

 

I dont want randomness to kill me in a rougelike game.

[Rathlord]

Sorry to come here again and ask, but i have to. 

 

Besides the use of the weapons, that its all clear for me why not using it.

 

I would like a answer about these tree ideas.

 

The use of an impact when facing a zombie that you had a sentimental bond, is also something bad to the game?

The use of a zombie that cause more impact to panic

The chance of a zombie not being finalized right (even after the splash sound), and coming again.

 

Sure.

 

The sentimental impact I could get behind a bit- but nothing from "before" the game. Once NPC's are in, I'd like to see killing friends you made have a negative impact on sanity and happiness- but never actually taking control of the player. As WildC said above, that's not something you want to ever see in a roguelike game and is all around pretty bad game design.

 

As far as the panic, I just don't see what it adds to the game. There's not much real reason for it- realistically speaking, there's not much about a walking corpse that's so different from the next 100 walking corpses that would effect you differently. Sub-point, slightly off topic:

 

There's two big things that make zombies frighten us:

 

1) To a lesser extent, the horrors of exposed bodies with flesh rotting and gore everywhere reminds us of our own mortality and is a living reminder of what will happen to us someday (even more so if we lose what makes us us and we roam about harming others).

 

2) To a more major extent, zombies hold the place of fear in our hearts because they have something no other monster effectively delivers- a reminder of the evil that dwells within each and every one of us. A zombie is the (un)living embodiment of one of humanity's deepest and most potent fears- the fear of who we are, that inside, we are monsters. No other monster has quite such a powerful claim to fear because of this.

 

Neither of these things, though, is particularly changed by a zombie's behavior or appearances- they are what they are either way, and any external change is only a shallow and meaningless one within the context of the greater source of the fear.

 

As far as the chance of a zombie not being taken down right- that essentially is what smacking them on the ground is. There's not much reason to have a 'double tap' trait because you simply can double tap in the game. What I will say is that I wish it wasn't quite so obvious of a sound/look when you finish a zombie. You should want to hit it until it stops moving and making sound, not hit it until the magic sound tells you it's done.

[Wilson SDS]

Thank you