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[Guest]

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Edited February 5 by Ax1007
No longer accurate

[EnigmaGrey]

What version of the game are you playing?

[Rathlord]

The LOS system first. This system is quite simply broken. Being slightly tired means that your vision cone is reduced to the point that you cannot see zombies standing next to you. The vision fade, means that if you look at somethign, turn to the side, it dissapears within seconds. This indicates your character has the short term memory of a goldfish. That coupled with the fact that there is no warning that you are being attacked, you can have a zombie chewing on your arm, and if the music is slightly too loud you wont notice at all, and you will die.

 

I want everyone to do something for me. Stand up in the room you are in, and give a quick scan of the entire room without moving your feet. You can look probably about 300-360 degrees around you and remember all of it very well. You can do this in an extremely short time frame, yet in the game, the only way to have a full spatial awareness is to go into sneak mode and spin around rapidly.Having the game artifically make vision more difficult for the player and diverge so far from reality is simply not fair, at least IMO

 

I hear this argument so much but it's illogical and senseless.

 

I want everyone (you) to do something for me. Stand up in the room you are in, and give a quick scan of the entire room without moving your feet. You can look probably about 300-360 degrees around you and remember all of it very well. Now, do you see what's directly behind you? Or outside your cone of vision at all? No. You remember it. Seeing isn't remembering. Just like your character, you can remember things you've just seen beside or behind you. Line of sight is line of sight not line of memory. You have a functional, human brain to remember things that your character would remember.

 

Further, maybe you've never been truly exhausted before. I've been two days without sleep- also been weeks of only getting an hour or three of sleep a night. It's an accurate representation. Even when your life is in danger, your brain is physical incapable of dealing with that kind of pressure and functioning fully.

 

 

 

The "Aura of Slow" is less of an issue because I can understand why its done. Its to simulate zombies grabbing you and slowing you down. The problem is, right now tis 100% likely to happen. 3 zombies right now mean that if you dont have a high enough skill in your weapon, you die, absolutely, no possible way to avoid it. Thats not particularly fair. Being slowed down should be a chance affect based on the number of zombies, and temporary, allowing you to escape.

 

Face towards them and push. Have never had this situation with "no possible way to avoid it" with only a few zombies- ever. Just push them down/away and you're fine.

 

I also really have no problem with crawlers. Circle around behind them (just like you'd do in real life if you thought about it) and attack and you're fine. Walking right up to an ankle biter is a good way to get your ankles bitten- that's just how it is. This isn't a game about being an action hero- sometimes the best option is to walk away, and you've got to recognize that. The fact that if you tangle with zombies you lose is part of what PZ is all about.

[Guest]

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Edited February 5 by Ax1007
No longer accurate

[Poddighe]

I totally agree with Rathlord. I think fighting the zombies now is too easy atm. But I believe is too early to talk about balance now, considering the fact that a lot of negative moodles aren't really a issue.

I'm playing a character with Agoraphobic and Claustrophobic traits, being constantly in Extreme Panic does not give you a disadvantage at all.

We need a way to feel constantly under the threat of death.

I would like to explain my thoughts better, but english is not my native language so it's somehow hard for me, sorry if sometimes I'm not 100% clear

[Guest]

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Edited February 5 by Ax1007
No longer accurate

[Suomiboi]

Here's something for those thinking that you notice everything happening around you:

There's some deep psychology behind it, that I won't go to details to unless someone explicitly wants.

 

I fully agree with Rath here on the los subject. Also I've never had any problems with the leaping zombies. I just walk/run past them just close enough to trigger and then circle around them. I've never seen one jump 10 feet though... Could you perhaps get us a clip of this happening? Either by you or if you've seen it in a Let's Play etc.

[deprav]

I personally have some grips with the LOS mechanics.

I do get the "disappearing zombies for no reason" ! like you knock a Z down on the floor and he somehow disappear and you then have to move and find a new angle to make it appear again so you can finish it.
 
(I'll bring some old pics with a brilliant Paint job to illustrate what I think is wrong).

Being unable to see one or a few zeds just standing like 10m away from you, plain day, no red moodle, just the need to sometimes be ridiculously close to actually see obvious Zeds.

 

Spoiler

The red circle is the spot where the Zeds finally showed up in my character's vision, further than that they were just invisible.

Some issues with level/stages, being unable to see a sea of zombies right under your window.

Spoiler

I was dying on that pic, but happened on acceptable condition as well. But even when dying you should be able to see an army of zombies right under your nose

A way to indicate zombies behind walls you're actually looking at should be found, it does feel weird to walk right in front of a group of Z right in front of you. (the pic will explain it better)

Spoiler

In that case we can see a few of them "above" the fence, but that's not always the case. Well you know what I mean we all got surprised when hugging fences.

And last one, which is imo pretty close from what the Op is talking about, the pretty frustrating fact you have to hold ctrl and turn around like a turret when you're on the move because Zeds fade away way to fast. It's not directly "LOS related" but more like an "Out of sight" perception issue.
For me it's pretty much counter-immersive to dance like a spinning-top when walking in the street. It would be nice to replace Zeds you actually saw by grey "shapes", moving or unmoving I don't really care, to indicate the last known positions of zeds you can't see anymore.
Plus, I don't know, It just feels weird when you have a horde of Zeds behind you, you DO KNOW they're here, you SEE the whole horde, and when you turn back to go away... just nothing, the void. It just... feels weird.

And to finish with fine art, a pic to illustrate.

Spoiler

[Spaniard]

You don't have eyes on the back of your head so I don't see how it's weird that the horde is not visible when you turn your back to them.

[deprav]

You don't have eyes on the back of your head so I don't see how it's weird that the horde is not visible when you turn your back to them.

I'll just quote myself :

"It's not directly "LOS related" but more like an "Out of sight" perception issue."

Your character knows exactly which door/window is open or closed, barricaded, broken, with curtains/sheets, after he just saw it once it just stays forever, memorizing all the details of the map/area ; but it's somehow unconcievable to keep track of 300 dead people craving for your flesh and trying to grab your ass, and insta-forget them as soon as he turns his eyeballs. Please.

[Spaniard]

 

You don't have eyes on the back of your head so I don't see how it's weird that the horde is not visible when you turn your back to them.

I'll just quote myself :

"It's not directly "LOS related" but more like an "Out of sight" perception issue."

Your character knows exactly which door/window is open or closed, barricaded, broken, with curtains/sheets, after he just saw it once it just stays forever, memorizing all the details of the map/area ; but it's somehow unconcievable to keep track of 300 dead people craving for your flesh and trying to grab your ass, and insta-forget them as soon as he turns his eyeballs. Please.

Of course it is, doors are inanimate while Zombies are not. As soon as you turn your back on them you don't see them. The game already shows you if they're a hairs breadth from you but doesn't, and shouldn't, show you what they're doing with your back turned to them and more than a foots distance from you. It doesn't make sense at all to be able to see the horde that you turned your back on, and in that regard, los seems perfectly fine.

Remembering a horde of Zombies is up to the player who's back is turned, even though there's an indication when they get really close to you, but you shouldn't be able to predict their movements. It's impossible and really odd that you believe it's possible to literally see things with your back turned to them. What's in game does give you an indication that trouble is behind you, not just the zombies you hear through your speakers, but also subtle visual cues that suggest your character is sensing things moving behind him or herself. Humans, however, do not have sonar so it's fine as it is now.

[Suomiboi]

I still don't see the problem with why is it difficult is it to remember it yourself. You're the character. So remember.

 

Personally I'd like an option to turn the fog of war to full black everywhere I'm not looking at.

[Poddighe]

Btw when zombies fade while out of your sight you can see a little shadow circle on ground.

[mikaelkerensky]

Speaking of fade, perhaps a fade feature could be implemented, to show "last i saw zombies were here when i turned my back". Wouldn't update to show where they moved when you weren't looking but it could serve as your characters "memory" of where they were last. Also, if you take the "keen hearing" positive trait a char creation it would be a nice bonus if something like a directional arrow popped up while your back waz turned to indicate "i just heard shuffling/moaning behind me"

[deprav]

Of course it is, doors are inanimate while Zombies are not. As soon as you turn your back on them you don't see them. The game already shows you if they're a hairs breadth from you but doesn't, and shouldn't, show you what they're doing with your back turned to them and more than a foots distance from you. It doesn't make sense at all to be able to see the horde that you turned your back on, and in that regard, los seems perfectly fine.

 

 

Have you even read what I wrote ? The point isn't to see what's in your back in real time like it's in front of you, the point was to give a "last known position".

Walk passed 200 houses and tell me which ones had closed curtains, amuse me.

Remembering stuff have nothing to do with them being inanimate or not, you'll most likely remember way better the position of 3 monsters coming at you than details you just passed by. It's not even about memory, it's in the heat of the action, it's still about perception of what you just saw, that you can still hear, and you know that it's coming to kill you.

 

It's impossible and really odd that you believe it's possible to literally see things with your back turned to them

 

C'mon put some efforts when you read posts, I've never said such things. There's no point arguing if you only read 1/4 of what's written and understand what you want to understand. It's just gonna end up in another "dialogue of deaf people".

Also, you'd be surprise about human's capacity to locate something with their hearing. Just take CS 1.6 as an exemple : you could precisely locate some other player's footstep and shoot him through a large wall, with an early 2000's 3D sound spacialization.

 

I still don't see the problem with why is it difficult is it to remember it yourself. You're the character. So remember.

 

 

It's not difficult, it's just fucking weird. Plus you, as a player sitting on a chair, don't put the same attention/effort to remember the location of zombies in your character's surroundings, than your char itself which is supposed to be a man/girl on the edge, in constant danger of death.

In the end it's not really about "supa dupa memory simulation", it's about the weirdness of holding ctrl + spinning like a ballet dancer on crack, which is completely immersion breaking. I don't know how you people can't see that precise game mechanic feels "broken" and way under the rest of the game...

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, uses the ctrl spin thingy when they're in a danger zone because they need to know what's happening around them. So instead of turning us into spinning-tops, a well thought game mechanic would be welcome.

I don't want full 360° vision, that would obviously be retarded and easy, a fix "last known position" would largely do the trick. And you'd still have to move to see where the Z went, and that would fill the "void" and, imo, be even more oppressive to have some grey-ish mass behind your char, moving everytime you look backward.

 

Personally I'd like an option to turn the fog of war to full black everywhere I'm not looking at.

 

 

I'd like the map to fade out to full black again but after a certain time, insta full black sounds awesome for night time tho.

 

[EnigmaGrey]

 

What version of the game are you playing?

Latest build available on Steam, build 23.

 

In build 25 (now called IWBUMS for some reason . . . sigh), you'll have the option to change the framerate of lighting updates. It won't alleviate all your concerns, but it should make it so you're less likely to be slowly eaten from behind without your being able to see it (as when they are right on top of you, they're meant to be visible).

Of course, there's always the keen hearing/eagle eye perks to help, as well.

[Spaniard]

 

C'mon put some efforts when you read posts, I've never said such things.

 

I read every word of what you said, and you compared remembering a door's location to, "it's somehow unconcievable to keep track of 300 dead people craving for your flesh and trying to grab your ass, and insta-forget them as soon as he turns his eyeballs." It's much, much easier remembering all the windows you've covered with sheets than it is to calmly register every slobbering monster that's shambling toward its next snack. The fact you think it's more reasonable to remember the zombies than something you did in relative tranquility is absolutely absurd.

 

Keep track of, to me, means that you think it's reasonable to be able to predict where the Zombies are going, or sense them so well that you may as well see them, even with your back turn. As other people have been saying, which you conveniently seem to gloss over, is that there already exist visual cues to let you know if someone is running up behind you. The way it is done now is fine and it's more confusing, I think, to visually show the "last known position" and it's not really beneficial to the game play. THe player's brain can do that itself and in no way makes the game more fun, if anything, it's exhilarating to have to turn around to see exactly where they might be, just like you would in real life.

 

 Also, this whole "spinning top" thing is ridiculous. If I were in a Zombie APocalyse, I can tell you right now, I 'd be looking over my shoulder every frickin' five seconds. That includes pivoting my body in 360 degrees. There's nothing immersion breaking about that, what is immersion breaking is walking around like some omniscient being that is able to track 400 Zombies all cool and calm, never once having to check their surroundings.

[Sieben]

Be aware, Zombies may be everywhere!

 

Just floated through my mind. I'm a damn poet!

 

Edit: Don't trust your senses, better look twice and best thrice. Even if the gameengine let you remind the position of the last corpses, don't get careless.

[deprav]

I read every word of what you said, and you compared remembering a door's location to, "it's somehow unconcievable to keep track of 300 dead people craving for your flesh and trying to grab your ass, and insta-forget them as soon as he turns his eyeballs." It's much, much easier remembering all the windows you've covered with sheets than it is to calmly register every slobbering monster that's shambling toward its next snack. The fact you think it's more reasonable to remember the zombies than something you did in relative tranquility is absolutely absurd.

aw c'mon.... I wasn't talking about the sheets you put yourself and doors you barricaded, I explicitely talked about the entire map keeping in memory and showing doors, windows and every possible detail or items anyone might have dropped, even when out of your character's sight... You read every word I say but you're not even trying to understand the slightest thing.

 

Keep track of, to me, means that you think it's reasonable to be able to predict where the Zombies are going, or sense them so well that you may as well see them, even with your back turn.

 

 

say what ?

That's pretty far fetched to think that someone saying "keeping track of" actually means "predicting something". "Keeping track" means "conserving a mark/sign/info", like someone keeping track of his favorite team's matchs doesn't mean he'll be able to predict their future results. Anyway, we're not here to discuss language.

 

there already exist visual cues to let you know if someone is running up behind you.

 

What clues ? I actually never noticed.

My point wasn't about other human chars positions, but precisely about zombies. Still good to know tho.

 

if anything, it's exhilarating to have to turn around to see exactly where they might be, just like you would in real life.

 

I do agree on that point, I've never been defending a 360° field of view. An indication of "last known position" would still require you to check your surroundings to see the actual position of the zed(s).

 

Also, this whole "spinning top" thing is ridiculous. If I were in a Zombie APocalyse, I can tell you right now, I 'd be looking over my shoulder every frickin' five seconds. That includes pivoting my body in 360 degrees. There's nothing immersion breaking about that, what is immersion breaking is walking around like some omniscient being that is able to track 400 Zombies all cool and calm, never once having to check their surroundings.

 

Well, same thing than before, never told anything about omniscient character with real-time tracking of everything, lets put this on the "keeping track of" misunderstanding.

I would as well try to stay aware of my surroundings and check different directions, what I wouldn't do is spin like M.Jackon until I feel dizzy... I'd probably mostly watch where I put my feet first of all.

I'll try to describe the spinning more precisely, might help : holding ctrl + constantly turning your mouse around your char to always have an actual "fading visual" of all the Zeds around you on your screen - resulting in some kind of "lighthouse like" use of the field of view.

There's a big step between conscientiously checking around you and being a frenetic weathercock. And, I think showing a slower fading "last known location" might ease that symptom a bit. Might even add a more surprising aspect when you realize that the still grey shape fading in your top left corner is now actually 1 second away from bitting your groin.

Even just a slower/longer zombie fading when they get out of sight might actually do the trick. I remember the first version of PZ I played, back when the zeds were still looking like green aliens with the very old 2D sprites. Zombies were much slower to fade away and that felt well thought and logical.

 

[Rathlord]

You're still asking for line of sight to be something it's not. It. Is. Not. Memory.

The game world doesn't disappear for ONE reason: it wouldn't look right and would make everything atrociously ugly and disconcerting. That is the ONLY reason it stays, NOT because it's a simulation ofte chaacters memory.

Your entire argument about remembering where zombies are is moot because that's not what that game system is. Further, it would add a gimmicky, gamey mechanic to PZ which is exactly what TIS doesn't want.

[deprav]

You're still asking for line of sight to be something it's not. It. Is. Not. Memory.

 

 

That's probably why I aborded the subject saying "And last one, which is imo pretty close from what the Op is talking about, the pretty frustrating fact you have to hold ctrl and turn around like a turret when you're on the move because Zeds fade away way to fast. It's not directly "LOS related" but more like an "Out of sight" perception issue."

 

The game world doesn't disappear for ONE reason: it wouldn't look right and would make everything atrociously ugly and disconcerting. That is the ONLY reason it stays, NOT because it's a simulation ofte chaacters memory.

 

 

I know it's not, I was pointing the fact people would somehow find absurd to see a remaining trace of a freshly seen zed, when they don't have any problem with locating items, sheetropes, player made stuff, state of doors & windows before it actually reaches their FOV. That's pretty ambiguous.

 

Your entire argument about remembering where zombies are is moot because that's not what that game system is. Further, it would add a gimmicky, gamey mechanic to PZ which is exactly what TIS doesn't want.

 

Imo, what I feel being a "gimmicky gamey mechanic" is the frenetic spinning most people do when they walk down the street.

Anyway, I don't think we'll ever reach a middleground. I don't care much anyway, it's not like I didnt have time to get used to it.

Tho the pretty short reach of the FOV feels more concerning.

 

 

Edit :

 

A thing just hit my mind. What I loved back in the old greenish alien 2D sprite zombies time, with the "ghost" and slow fade away, was the use they made of it when your character was starting to get "psychologically red mooddled", paranoid and depressed : your char would see "ghost zeds" banging at the door + sound or "ghost zeds" out of its FOV (or LOS, I prefere FOV), but they weren't actually here. That was freaking me out.

[Poddighe]

Btw when zombies fade while out of your sight you can see a little shadow circle on ground.

 

Actually it isn't work any more. Build 25v2

[ExcentriCreation]

90% of the time when I die in PZ its due to the zombie I didn't see (the others being stupid & or greedy) & I might add this makes up 50-60% of deaths in zombie movies. This is why I have taken to making perception builds.... Seriously give this build a go. Security Guard, Eagle Eyed, Keen Hearing, Short Tempered, Brooding, Prone to Illness & Light Drinker. Your "perception circle" (representing hearing) around your character is a 2-3 tile radius, your cone of vision is around 120 degrees & your "fade time" almost gives you enough time to knock Zed on his arse & beat his brains in with a golf club before the zombie behind you disappears.... It is RIDICULOUS how easy this makes killing/avoiding Zed. Even if there were a credible argument why, realisticly speaking, the field of vision/perception radius should be increased (which I havent heard yet) I think that if it were implemented, Zed would almost cease to be a hazard. The only "issue" I see with LOS atm is the degree to which obstructions obscure your vision.... I dont know about anyone else, but I can see more than 1 or 2 people into a crowd & I can damn sure see past knee high grass

 

EDIT:

Oh, & my understanding of the "aura of slow" was that Zed is grappling you

[Etsamaru]

The line of sight thing is my favorite thing about PZ. I like that you have to look around the game would be boring if you could always see the zombies, and too distracting to see the blobs. I'd rather just double take and keep checking.

[Poddighe]

I really don't get the problem here.

Maybe is my bad text comprehension.

Also I find to be very easy to determinate where a zombie is, even if is out of your line of sight, You just need to look around and you can do almost every single action in the game while turning.