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MP, griefing, and permadeath


Invader Jim

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Read this thread for an insight into how the closed roleplay servers tend to be:

 

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/6949-the-best-roleplay-ive-ever-experienced-in-pz/

 

That's where the true PZ MP experience is. The server he mentions has auto registering use a steam account, which while means its open it also has more power to keep out wrong'uns. The threat of losing access, like a police force or a prison system in RL, acts as a good deterrent for shittiness.

 

I can't promise how trustworthy the steam account registration stuff is being only somewhat aware of it, and have to say you partake at your own risk. But the server op has run a server since day 1 of MP and seems to be a good un, so I'm inclined to think personally its all totally kosher.

Oh, but I've already read that, that's actually the only server I play on and administrate it now (which is easier because of the whitelisting) I actually missed that day sadly. :(

 

Nonetheless, thanks for taking the time to clear it up, I guess I probably over-reacted after reading the OP and set an image in my mind in what it would turn out to be, bad idea. 

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Imagine playing any game that you own and then dying, being put back to the menu and not being able to join for 15 minutes.

 

 

I'd probably take a crap and make some tea. And if the cooldown is 10h long, I'd probably play some music or watch some series and do some other stuffs. Life doesn't stop when you can't play a game you own ;o

It seems like most people who are strictly against the idea only approach the question from a subjective point of view, like : "HELL NAW ! Can you imagine not being able to play a game I PAID for a couple of hours ! this is outrageous !"

But that's precisely the point of that mechanism. If YOU (all of you) don't want to die and be unable to play for an hour or more, most people will probably think the exact same thing. If you take a step back and try to be a bit more objective, you'll realize no one wants to die in a survival game, and no one wants to be unable to play a freaking awesome game like PZ, me first ;o. That's why that system would most likely work : people would be less reckless, more commited to their characters, and think twice before "doing something bad", because every action leads to a reaction, and killing someone is risking his group to seek revenge or a long vendetta with that person you killed (therefore, killing someone is risking to get killed in a near future)

It's not like the "Perma-death" got you banned from any server for a life time, it's jut a cooldown to make death more "palpable". The whole game revolves around death ; it shouldn't be something anodyne like in any multiplayer FPS where you just respawn and keep on doing what you're doing. Death must be something that matters.

Like in real paper&pen RPG, if your character dies... well... he dies forever, you can't finish the scenario/quest you were playing with your friends, and on the next scenario/quest you'll be playing, you'll have to start another character.

 

That said, it sure should be an option ! there's no need for such mechanics if you play with a few friends or on a proper RP server etc... But when we ever get persistent servers with a large number of players, that should be an essential feature.

 

The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

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Read this thread for an insight into how the closed roleplay servers tend to be:

 

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/6949-the-best-roleplay-ive-ever-experienced-in-pz/

 

That's where the true PZ MP experience is. The server he mentions has auto registering use a steam account, which while means its open it also has more power to keep out wrong'uns. The threat of losing access, like a police force or a prison system in RL, acts as a good deterrent for shittiness.

 

I can't promise how trustworthy the steam account registration stuff is being only somewhat aware of it, and have to say you partake at your own risk. But the server op has run a server since day 1 of MP and seems to be a good un, so I'm inclined to think personally its all totally kosher.

Oh, but I've already read that, that's actually the only server I play on and administrate it now (which is easier because of the whitelisting) I actually missed that day sadly. :(

 

Nonetheless, thanks for taking the time to clear it up, I guess I probably over-reacted after reading the OP and set an image in my mind in what it would turn out to be, bad idea. 

 

 

I suspect if you look for specific RP servers and apply to join, it may take a few days to get in on one but you'll likely find a lot more of these experiences in there,

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Read this thread for an insight into how the closed roleplay servers tend to be:

 

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/6949-the-best-roleplay-ive-ever-experienced-in-pz/

 

That's where the true PZ MP experience is. The server he mentions has auto registering use a steam account, which while means its open it also has more power to keep out wrong'uns. The threat of losing access, like a police force or a prison system in RL, acts as a good deterrent for shittiness.

 

I can't promise how trustworthy the steam account registration stuff is being only somewhat aware of it, and have to say you partake at your own risk. But the server op has run a server since day 1 of MP and seems to be a good un, so I'm inclined to think personally its all totally kosher.

Well, I was part of it (I'm the John he's talking about) and I'm an admin on that server as well ! But the server wasn't using steam API + Whitelist back when this happened ! It was still totally open  :)

 

 

I remind a post you made about what you had in mind for the future of PZ's multiplayer, you were mentionning persistent servers with entire player made cities, factions, large amount of players etc... I think those kinds of servers deserve that kind of "deep death mechanism".

Even if it's closed and need registration, it's not just about "fighting griefing" which can be done obviously more efficiently in other manners.  It's about "death being more "palpable". The whole game revolves around death ; it shouldn't be something anodyne like in any multiplayer FPS where you just respawn and keep on doing what you're doing. Death must be something that matters.

Like in real paper&pen RPG, if your character dies... well... he dies forever, you can't finish the scenario/quest you were playing with your friends, and on the next scenario/quest you'll be playing, you'll have to start another character."

 

 

 

The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

 

 

No one takes the ability to play the game away from the players, they would still be allowed to play on any other servers than the one they just died on, or play singleplayer or last stand.

But a lot of people don't care much about "characters and skills" when their char is still fresh, with a fresh character you can be "kamikazish" without any real consequences to death. And if you just lost your level 3 carpentry character you can just create a new char and go for revenge over and over.

 

"This is how you died" , not "This is how you died over and over" ;o

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The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

 

Why? Not every server has to be the same.

If someone gets a thrill out of the limits of playing once every X hours, what does it matter? You'll have alternative servers to play on.

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The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

 

Why? Not every server has to be the same.

If someone gets a thrill out of the limits of playing once every X hours, what does it matter? You'll have alternative servers to play on.

 

I dont think any player would want to be banned for any length of time from playing on their favorite server. So either you'll have a server with those rules in place with maby one or two people playing who will get bored and leave, or you wont.

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The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

Why? Not every server has to be the same.

If someone gets a thrill out of the limits of playing once every X hours, what does it matter? You'll have alternative servers to play on.

I dont think any player would want to be banned for any length of time from playing on their favorite server. So either you'll have a server with those rules in place with maby one or two people playing who will get bored and leave, or you wont.

I think you should stop pretending like you speak for the PZ community because it's first of all just not true, and second also pretty offensive.

As someone who's ACTUALLY been an active part of this community for about three years now, I can say with confidence that a decent amount of people WOULD in fact want this. Further, your suggestion that items magically disappear actually goes against the entire design philosophy of PZ and is farrrrrrr more likely to upset the majority of this game's followers.

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I dont think any player would want to be banned for any length of time from playing on their favorite server. So either you'll have a server with those rules in place with maby one or two people playing who will get bored and leave, or you wont.

 

if a person chooses to set up a server, it is up to that person to decide the rules of the server. if i decide to set up a server that has a limited amount of people who are allowed in, and i decide that dying in the game means you are out of the server, that is my choice.

 

it then falls on the people who choose to follow along with the rules to do their best to keep from dying. perma death would be literal in this case, and whether someone like Firebrand approves or not is irrelevant. you would know the rules when you were given the password, and have to agree with them or lose your slot.

 

and you know what? i bet the people who got in would find themselves enjoying the game quite a bit more than on a public server.

 

i would also bet there would be a list of people who wanted to get in.

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The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

Why? Not every server has to be the same.

If someone gets a thrill out of the limits of playing once every X hours, what does it matter? You'll have alternative servers to play on.

I dont think any player would want to be banned for any length of time from playing on their favorite server. So either you'll have a server with those rules in place with maby one or two people playing who will get bored and leave, or you wont.

I think you should stop pretending like you speak for the PZ community because it's first of all just not true, and second also pretty offensive.

As someone who's ACTUALLY been an active part of this community for about three years now, I can say with confidence that a decent amount of people WOULD in fact want this. Further, your suggestion that items magically disappear actually goes against the entire design philosophy of PZ and is farrrrrrr more likely to upset the majority of this game's followers.

 

Why are you so offended and rude? You did this eairler to another member. Is it because of your "years of expierence' on this forum makes your opinion beyond contestation? Does that give you clairvoyance into my meaning and what im trying to say? Im merly expressing my point of view, and if that offends you then too bad.

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The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

 

Why? Not every server has to be the same.

If someone gets a thrill out of the limits of playing once every X hours, what does it matter? You'll have alternative servers to play on.

 

I dont think any player would want to be banned for any length of time from playing on their favorite server. So either you'll have a server with those rules in place with maby one or two people playing who will get bored and leave, or you wont.

 

Just for the sake of logic : If someone is strongly against the idea of having a cooldown when he dies, I don't think his favorite server will be a server with "cooldown on death" as an active option. I think that's pretty obvious ;o

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The suggestion that you punish a player for dying by disallowing them to continue to play on a server of their choice for any amount of time is extreme and offensive. You can not take the players ability to play the game away from them. Set the items on a timer to delete or something that way the killer has the opportunity to loot and no chance of the player to retrieve items. That is a perfectly viable and punishing enough solution along with losing the character and skills.

Why? Not every server has to be the same.

If someone gets a thrill out of the limits of playing once every X hours, what does it matter? You'll have alternative servers to play on.

I dont think any player would want to be banned for any length of time from playing on their favorite server. So either you'll have a server with those rules in place with maby one or two people playing who will get bored and leave, or you wont.

I think you should stop pretending like you speak for the PZ community because it's first of all just not true, and second also pretty offensive.

As someone who's ACTUALLY been an active part of this community for about three years now, I can say with confidence that a decent amount of people WOULD in fact want this. Further, your suggestion that items magically disappear actually goes against the entire design philosophy of PZ and is farrrrrrr more likely to upset the majority of this game's followers.

 

Why are you so offended and rude? You did this eairler to another member. Is it because of your "years of expierence' on this forum makes your opinion beyond contestation? Does that give you clairvoyance into my meaning and what im trying to say? Im merly expressing my point of view, and if that offends you then too bad.

 

 

You're the one with 19 posts coming into a community and pretending to speak for everyone here, not me. I'm speaking from years of experience dealing with these people- people I've known for a long time and consider my friends. It's incredibly rude for you to sit here and tell people that NO player would want this, especially in a thread with several people supporting it. On the other hand, it's perfectly logical for me to speak for constituent members who I'm familiar with.

 

It has nothing to do with my opinion being beyond contesting- that's just silly. There've been several times when I've disliked an idea that the devs have later said they want to add (amputation, for example).

 

 

 

and if that offends you then too bad.

 

Telling me that I'm being offensive then telling me that you're being offensive and you don't care is a bad idea. This is the part where I get to step in as a moderator and tell you to treat everyone with respect (especially moderators, as that's just common sense). I am saying I find you speaking for a community you're frankly not a part of offensive. That's a logical statement. You find my rebuttal offensive- that's being puerile about something because you disagree, and then throwing that in my face.

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This is the part where I get to step in as a moderator and tell you to treat everyone with respect (especially moderators, as that's just common sense). I am saying I find you speaking for a community you're frankly not a part of offensive. That's a logical statement.

 

I disagree with Firebrand as well Rathlord but at what point does a person elevate to a member of the community that should be due respect?

Surely the moment they register on the forums and begin sharing thoughts with others no?

 

Just saying, there needs to be a little more respect shown in this discussion, moderator or not.

 

I realise I have less than 100 posts to my account and therefore might not be counted as a member of Project Zomboid's community (a shame) but I just feel that needed to be said.

 

Remember, I agree with your points and am on your side with this one but lets have respect for everyone. Let's all be pals and not take things so personally. :)

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Everyone is due respect- that's part of our rules. I don't believe I disrespected him at all. I'm not sure why you're taking me being offended by his attitude as somehow me disrespecting him. If you'd like to be a little more specific maybe I can speak to what you're talking to specifically?

Edit: can you point out where in that quote I said that he didn't deserve respect? I'm honestly pretty befuddled here- are you saying that me telling him to behave as a moderator wasn't "nice"? Because that's part of my job here. Nothing you quoted seems to relate to what you wrote after it, so forgive my confusion.

Edit edit: Sorry, I keep rereading your post- do you maybe want to read what you quoted again? I think you must have misread something.

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Sorry Rathlord, let me try to clarify a bit.

 

When the discussion broke down, you mentioned him only having 19-posts and when coupled with your comment later: "a community you're frankly not a part of", it all came across as very alienating and disrespectful. That somehow he was being shunned from the community membership by a moderator no less for a simple misrepresentation of his opinion.

*EDIT*: And as a new "member" myself, this attitude was a little disheartening. I'd be glad to pin it down to a simple misunderstanding on my part.  I respect your time-served Rathlord.

 

I appreciate he used very broad terms, giving the impression he spoke for everyone, even though we all know that's not the case or how he probably intended it. He speaks for himself as can everyone. :)

 

The whole "btw I'm a Moderator yeah?" approach just seemed unnecessary and the chucking of this buzzword "offensive" back and forth was also unneeded.

 

Anyway, I was hoping the hostility could be defused, I didn't want to fuel it so I apologize and I won't say any more on it. It's all a bit silly really, especially since Lemmy has left a (almost official?) stance on the matter.

 

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my last post, hope the above makes it a bit clearer.

We good? :)

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I have a solution really, people might not like it but it would work. Have an option in the server to disable choice of spawn city.

Along with that when you die your body REALLY needs to reanimate and walk off. Lets say the world becomes much bigger. You kill a griefer in Muldraugh, and he respawns in West Point, and his body came back as a zombie and joined the horde somewhere. He won't find his stuff, even if he runs back it's too late takes too long.

 

Now this would make death have more of a consequence. You won't get your stuff back unless you store it away, and you don't know for sure if you can make it back.

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I have a solution really, people might not like it but it would work. Have an option in the server to disable choice of spawn city.

Along with that when you die your body REALLY needs to reanimate and walk off. Lets say the world becomes much bigger. You kill a griefer in Muldraugh, and he respawns in West Point, and his body came back as a zombie and joined the horde somewhere. He won't find his stuff, even if he runs back it's too late takes too long.

 

Now this would make death have more of a consequence. You won't get your stuff back unless you store it away, and you don't know for sure if you can make it back.

 

hmm, it's not just about not being able to get your stuff back, if you get killed by someone that someone will most likely get your stuff before you can come back, even in the same city. Getting your inventory back is only possible if you die on your own (infected, injured, sick, eaten alive, suicide etc...). "Cooldown", for me at least, is really a way to add more "weight" and gravity to your char's death.

Tho the idea of not choosing your spawn point as an option on the server, me lyk it much ! Even when the map is wayyyy bigger, that might be fun. Lets say you play with a group of 5 friends, you all spawn scattered accross the immensity of the map, first thing you have to do : find a map (or use the wiki D: ), and reach your friends. Cool adventures ;p

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New people are just as welcome (well, more welcome, actually) than old timers here. My point wasn't "he's new so his opinion doesn't matter" it was "he's new so he doesn't need to claim that he speaks for the entire community". Also, the reason I brought up being a moderator was so he knew I was warning him as a moderator (rather than just throwing it in as part of a debate- during discussions I'm just a regular guy; my word isn't law unless I'm making mod actions). Hope that clarifies my position.

Having corpses reanimate will help with power gaming but won't work for griefing. So while it is something I look forward to that will be of to have, I don't personally feel it sorts the problem.

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Sorry Rathlord, let me try to clarify a bit.

 

When the discussion broke down, you mentioned him only having 19-posts and when coupled with your comment later: "a community you're frankly not a part of", it all came across as very alienating and disrespectful. That somehow he was being shunned from the community membership by a moderator no less for a simple misrepresentation of his opinion.

*EDIT*: And as a new "member" myself, this attitude was a little disheartening. I'd be glad to pin it down to a simple misunderstanding on my part.  I respect your time-served Rathlord.

 

I appreciate he used very broad terms, giving the impression he spoke for everyone, even though we all know that's not the case or how he probably intended it. He speaks for himself as can everyone. :)

 

The whole "btw I'm a Moderator yeah?" approach just seemed unnecessary and the chucking of this buzzword "offensive" back and forth was also unneeded.

 

Anyway, I was hoping the hostility could be defused, I didn't want to fuel it so I apologize and I won't say any more on it. It's all a bit silly really, especially since Lemmy has left a (almost official?) stance on the matter.

 

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my last post, hope the above makes it a bit clearer.

We good? :)

Indeed. Sorry for my bit in the matter.

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Having corpses reanimate will help with power gaming but won't work for griefing. So while it is something I look forward to that will be of to have, I don't personally feel it sorts the problem.

    Yeah as it stands as long as you run to a house real quick or a place you can remember it's pretty easy to return. Though it would be neat if your body could wander off or attack you when you return. However it is still possible in MP that another player can kill your old body and take your loot. Even if you put your stuff on a shelf it can get looted. So that helps with Power Playing.

 

Power Playing I assume is just dying and running right back to your body and continuing where you left off as if nothing happened?

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Yeah and it will be easier to spot player's bodies or reanimated corpses when we can see bag sprites on them. Making power play since players will recognize dead players among "normal zombies".

Unless 'natural' zombies also get those sprites whenever they have a bag on them.
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over the course of many survivors, now dead, i have found quite a few back packs, duffels, normal and big hiking bags on zombies. so them having one would certainly be a possibility.

 

but then it becomes a game where we go out and scout zombies, looking for one that has a bag and bypassing those who do not.

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over the course of many survivors, now dead, i have found quite a few back packs, duffels, normal and big hiking bags on zombies. so them having one would certainly be a possibility.

 

but then it becomes a game where we go out and scout zombies, looking for one that has a bag and bypassing those who do not.

I don't see it that way, I mostly bypass every if there's more than 1 or 2, zombies with bag might push the players to take some risks ;o

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