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Suggestions for EndGame Success ( Migration and Progression)


GoldenBullet

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I feel that Zombie Migration system will be one of the most important elements in the game. The only problem is different players will have different opinions on what the best system is. I think sandbox mode should allow you to change your Migration settings to what you see fit. Easy mode would be for players who want zombies to stay relatively still, medium for people who want hordes to wander realistically, and hard for people who want to feel under constant threat from the zombie menace and always have to stay on the move.

 

Easy Migration

 

Hordes stay in there general vacinity but will wonder slightly if they hear a loud noise. (Prett much the current state of the game

 

Medium Migration

 

After a set amount of days, if a horde encounters no humans in there general vacinity (including npcs) they will start to migrate to an adjacent area in search of prey. Hordes prefer to migrate to areas they haven't been before.

 

Hard Migration

 

Zombies have an innate ability to sense humans from a mile away. Hordes will move (slowly) directly towards the player

 

 

Game Progression

 

I feel that game progression will be one of the factors that determine rather this game will become great and not just good. In it's current state there is no doubt that Project Zomboid will become at least a mild success but it has a way to go before people say things like "best zombie game ever" besides the rogue like oldie fans.

 

First off progression should actually be progression instead of just random ill karma from the Sadistic AI director. Getting a flu because you stayed in your safehouse too long and the AI got mad at you is what i call bad design. There should be innate philoshpies and mechanics in the game that would make playing as such a bad tactic

 

My belief is that the devs should change the philosophy they have toward the infection

 

The Infection and Downfall of Humanity

 

The infection should get progressively worse as time goes by. The devs seem pretty single-minded on the fact that they want the infection to work exactly like traditional romero zombies which is good at the beginning but pretty much is a bear trap waiting for them at the end. Essentially the game gets easier the further you get instead of harder and you pretty much never want progression to work like that.

 

My suggestion for infection is that

- It starts of exactly how it is

- It starts affecting wildlife

- It starts mutating zombies (faster, stronger, better senses, time of day affinity, ect)

- it starts killing of plant life

 

Essentially the infection will create different stages of the game just like how there is a "electrical" and "post-electrical" phase of the game. The above would force the player to continually adapt their strategies as the infection gets continuously worse. This would also be alot better for the lore, I mean lets be serious for a second: there is no way a traditional zombie apocalypse could ever bring the world to it's knee's, let alone even a single country.

 

In the game's current state, even with the future addition of NPC's and Zombie Migration stagnation will happen rather quickly due to the unchanging world. Essentially after you build a safehouse and farm, your job would just become to fight of migrating hordes without ever having to adapt to anything else. For there to be actual progression I think a timeline would be good

 

- Downfall of civilization starts

- People start to band together in small groups

- Power shuts off

- Infection starts to mutate

- Large groups such as Raiders, Bandits, and Panic Shelters start to form

- Hostile Military action (bombings, kidnappings for experimentation, ect)

- Plant-life starts to die

 

By making the world continually evolve as time goes by, it adds longevity to it. Of course such an endeavor will take time. Which is why i wouldn't expect this to be implemented anytime soon but I think that the devs should start looking in this direction after they finish up with their current agenda (npcs, multiplayer, ect)

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Ok then. Here's a few personal points from me:

Migration:

I agree that the migration should and probably will be configurable so that all will find their match. However I think the migration will be heavily tied to the SAID so I don't know if it's necessary to separate those two.

Progression:

First off the sadistic is a bit of a misleading word imo as what I've gathered it will be more of a interactive storyteller. It's not supposed to be an active griefer. I don't know why people always think that the devs haven't given that much thought to a system that is vital to the future of the game.

If you have ever played the likes of EU3/4 or CKII you'll know that the events there aren't supposed to make the game harder, but more interesting and real. Also IIRC Lemmy said that the SAID will be even more complex than those systems in some ways. My point is that rather than thinking it as a system that takes away from realism it'll probably be a system that creates realistic situations in an otherwise unrealistically still world.

Infection etc.:

Your bullet points for the infection are almost all definite no from the devs, no matter how you make them seem interesting for late game.

- No special zombies.

- No animal zombies.

- Why would a "disease" turning people to walking corpses kill plants?

The downfall of the civilization will happen by the works of the SAID. Imo you're trying to make too gamey solutions to a system that will work much better with realistic solutions.

These are again my personal views on the subject.

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I was under the impression that special zombies were unique infected like those in L4D, i don't think enhanced zombies count as "special" seeing you can modify their base attributes in sandbox mode as well

 

As far as why a disease that turns people into corpses kill plants it's pretty obvious. The sole prerogative of the zombie virus to is eradicate mankind, one of the most effective ways to do this would be to kill off plant life. Zombies don't digest people since they are dead, and they don't have some sort of queen or society meaning the only thing that could explain their actions is that the virus goal is the extinction of mankind.

 

Now if your arguing about scientifically how a zombie virus would kill plants then that would be pretty pointless. I mean there are multiple ways it could work in fiction and it already reanimates dead corpses so I think there is a good deal of arm room here.

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Well the special zombies is of course up for debate, but for me it's all that doesn't fit the traditional Romero 2 first movies lore.

Still I think the reasoning behind the suggestion is a bit flawed. I don't think elemental features of the game should be changed just to enhance end game. Especially when other systems can do that much better.

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Migration:

Easy Mode: Maybe we should wait for the SAID to be fully finished to decide if the whole migration is "to easy"

Medium and Hard Mode: both don't appeal to me. Zombies have no sixth sense to "sense humans" and they don't search for prey. if nothing happens they stay in standby mode till something gets their attention. I guess the SAID will lure them around enough with the "distant gunshots" and such.

 

Progression:

 

-snip-
First off the sadistic is a bit of a misleading word imo as what I've gathered it will be more of a interactive storyteller. It's not supposed to be an active griefer. I don't know why people always think that the devs haven't given that much thought to a system that is vital to the future of the game.

If you have ever played the likes of EU3/4 or CKII you'll know that the events there aren't supposed to make the game harder, but more interesting and real. Also IIRC Lemmy said that the SAID will be even more complex than those systems in some ways. My point is that rather than thinking it as a system that takes away from realism it'll probably be a system that creates realistic situations in an otherwise unrealistically still world.

Infection etc.:
Your bullet points for the infection are almost all definite no from the devs, no matter how you make them seem interesting for late game.
- No special zombies.
- No animal zombies.
- Why would a "disease" turning people to walking corpses kill plants?

-snip-

 

only thing to add to this is for the downfall:

no military

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The way I see it, this is how I hope game progression works:

 

1.) Initial stage.

- Player gets bearings.

- Zombies do not yet migrate from outside map, so you have all you have to deal with.

- Water & Electricity are up, for now.

- Stockpiling and skill upping (Generally Cooking, while fresh materials available).

- *may* run into NPCs and start bringing them in.

- Generally the big Looting phase.

- Warm weather will make things difficult slightly.

 

2.) 1-2 Month Later.

- More zombies migrating from edge of map, small horde (probably signified by helicopter noises or machine gun sounds)

- Water & Electricity could go out at any time. Likely Electric First.

- Stockpiling and skill upping cooking (hopefully). Perishables slowly rot.

- Player has better knowledge of the area they're in; knows where many things are.

- Odds are that player has looted a full set of tools for carpentry by now.

- Undoubtedly has run into NPCs and has a few back at their safehouse.

- Still generally looting, some experimental carpentry and the like.

- Preparing for harder times.

- Less warmer weather as months progress.
 

 

3.) 3-4 Months Later.

- More zombies migrating from edge of map, repopulating area with threats. Lots more zombies.

- Water & Electricity are out. Player has to have renewable water source & start to consider food sources other than stockpiles.

- Much more building with resources from looting. Farming starting to become a requirement now.

- Player knows where just about everything is; less and less to loot every day.

- More (or less) NPCs to deal with. Higher likelihood of bandits, especially as less lootables are available.

- Weather is rainier/cooler.

 

4.) 5 Months Later.

- More zombies migrating from edge of maps, larger hordes.

- Bandits packs start spawning, hunting for spots to loot. Shoots at Zombies, NPCs, and Players. Often attracts zombies.

- Water is sourced in Rain Collectors or else player wouldn't have made it this far.

- A rudimentary farm is going that is fully reinforced. Player has at least some fresh food.

- NPCs bickering; have to deal with that.

- Much more building, now with a more defensive requirement.

- Bandits may find Safehouse. Zombies will get more populous.

- Winter is coming.

 

5.) 6 Months Later

- More zombies migrating from edge of maps, average hordes.

- Bandits start their own safehouse in a random spot (if AI is up to it)

- Bandit NPCs are more common

- NPCs bickering; potentially have to deal with NPC relationships?

- Nearly nothing to loot that hasn't been already.

- Must keep and protect fully functioning safehouse.

- Potential to leave to another map? (Possible Transit using Automotive Skill/Vehicles)

- Winter is here, and it sucks.

 

6.) Endgame (6 Months - 1 year)

- Zombies continue migrating; constant danger.

- Bandit safehouse either taken down or growing. Maybe another Bandit Safehouse is established.

- Bandit NPCs hassle any attempt to leave Safehouse. Attack safehouse often.

- NPCs under pressure. Potential for NPC births?

- Possible winter season issues with farming food (hope canning/preserving added to game by this point)

- Water Collectors potentially freezing, causing issues (hope electric heaters/generators added to game by this point)

- Lots more fighting on all sides to protect safehouse and your NPCs.

- Potential to leave to another map is very very attractive.

- Repeats from Step 3; keeping your repopulating society going and smacking down zombies & bandits.

- Seasons start getting warmer as things progress.

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- Potential to leave to another map? (Possible Transit using Automotive Skill/Vehicles)

 

 Potential for NPC births?

1. There is only one map. :shock:

 

2. No children. as per: http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/192-commonly-suggested-suggestions-read-before-posting/

 

I'd like to think that the military will play at least a part in the end game. Once the army bases fall down, NPC military groups might reign havoc on regular survivors for loot and food. Or if the army bases stand, they will be a challenge to get to in the same way as with Minecraft. If you want to get harder challenges you go to the nether or strive for the end. If you don't, stay away. I don't like games with too much of a forced difficulty curve as they usually tend to be too steep for me and I just end up rage quitting. :P And after that there's nothing to get back to except for that too hard part which won't get any easier.

 

Also I'd like it to be steadily so hard that it would be nearly impossible to stay at the same spot without being overrun, as in with the zombie migration and horde movement. Maybe so that the hordes could grow in size after a few months.

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1. There is only one map. :shock:

Not with the map editor. It'd be nice to be able to move a character between, for example - West Point and Muldraugh. Or move from West Point to a user created map.

 

 

2. No children. as per: http://theindiestone...before-posting/

 

I was thinking more along the lines of mod potential, truthfully. There are many things on their list that I plan to work on myself if they won't. Maybe a lineages NPC mod when all the NPC stuff gets worked out.

 

Also, I think they also said there'd be no military in that same post you linked. But still, mod potential. The Endgame tends to be a sticking point in games like this and I hope there continues to be challenges no matter how stable you think you've finally built up. Zombies always, NPCs to juggle, Bandits to fight off - and maybe eventually Military or Ex-Military Raiders. Always a bigger, badder fish.

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1. There is only one map. :shock:

Not with the map editor. It'd be nice to be able to move a character between, for example - West Point and Muldraugh. Or move from West Point to a user created map.
I was thinking more along the lines of mod potential, truthfully. There are many things on their list that I plan to work on myself if they won't. Maybe a lineages NPC mod when all the NPC stuff gets worked out.

Also, I think they also said there'd be no military in that same post you linked. But still, mod potential. The Endgame tends to be a sticking point in games like this and I hope there continues to be challenges no matter how stable you think you've finally built up. Zombies always, NPCs to juggle, Bandits to fight off - and maybe eventually Military or Ex-Military Raiders. Always a bigger, badder fish.

You do know that you can walk from muldraugh to West point?

For what you mentioned for the end game. The Meta game and the sadistic AI director are supposed to keep this Level of interest you mentioned...except for military i think. Of course, everything you think needs overhaulin probably is something where mods come in.

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I dislike the thought of any "Endgame" so to say, I believe the game should be open ended in all its mechanics, from being able to fashion ant type of tool you need to survive to constructing anything. The game does not revolve around one player but can have many players in one world that is constantly aging. To put a clamp on this would ruin the longevity of servers or so-called "generation games".

 

I believe that a game like this should not have an artificially increasing rate of difficulty but a more natural level of hazard that is found throughout the world and the timeline. Hardship should come from tools breaking and zombies migrating in. Random events and meta events are the things that should make the game interesting.

 

Even with a timeline though these mechanics must exist from the get-go and not slowly enter the fray. Because what if I join a server months in or I start a character in a world that is over a year old? The game has to be open ended, tool-wise, food-wise and adventure-wise.

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As far as why a disease that turns people into corpses kill plants it's pretty obvious. The sole prerogative of the zombie virus to is eradicate mankind, one of the most effective ways to do this would be to kill off plant life. Zombies don't digest people since they are dead, and they don't have some sort of queen or society meaning the only thing that could explain their actions is that the virus goal is the extinction of mankind.

Now if your arguing about scientifically how a zombie virus would kill plants then that would be pretty pointless. I mean there are multiple ways it could work in fiction and it already reanimates dead corpses so I think there is a good deal of arm room here.

Diseases are not conscious entities, their goal is not to eliminate mankind. If anything their goal (although not conscious) is to survive long enough to reproduce.

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The way I see it, this is how I hope game progression works:

 

1.) Initial stage.

- Player gets bearings.

- Zombies do not yet migrate from outside map, so you have all you have to deal with.

- Water & Electricity are up, for now.

- Stockpiling and skill upping (Generally Cooking, while fresh materials available).

- *may* run into NPCs and start bringing them in.

- Generally the big Looting phase.

- Warm weather will make things difficult slightly.

 

2.) 1-2 Month Later.

- More zombies migrating from edge of map, small horde (probably signified by helicopter noises or machine gun sounds)

- Water & Electricity could go out at any time. Likely Electric First.

- Stockpiling and skill upping cooking (hopefully). Perishables slowly rot.

- Player has better knowledge of the area they're in; knows where many things are.

- Odds are that player has looted a full set of tools for carpentry by now.

- Undoubtedly has run into NPCs and has a few back at their safehouse.

- Still generally looting, some experimental carpentry and the like.

- Preparing for harder times.

- Less warmer weather as months progress.

 

 

3.) 3-4 Months Later.

- More zombies migrating from edge of map, repopulating area with threats. Lots more zombies.

- Water & Electricity are out. Player has to have renewable water source & start to consider food sources other than stockpiles.

- Much more building with resources from looting. Farming starting to become a requirement now.

- Player knows where just about everything is; less and less to loot every day.

- More (or less) NPCs to deal with. Higher likelihood of bandits, especially as less lootables are available.

- Weather is rainier/cooler.

 

4.) 5 Months Later.

- More zombies migrating from edge of maps, larger hordes.

- Bandits packs start spawning, hunting for spots to loot. Shoots at Zombies, NPCs, and Players. Often attracts zombies.

- Water is sourced in Rain Collectors or else player wouldn't have made it this far.

- A rudimentary farm is going that is fully reinforced. Player has at least some fresh food.

- NPCs bickering; have to deal with that.

- Much more building, now with a more defensive requirement.

- Bandits may find Safehouse. Zombies will get more populous.

- Winter is coming.

 

5.) 6 Months Later

- More zombies migrating from edge of maps, average hordes.

- Bandits start their own safehouse in a random spot (if AI is up to it)

- Bandit NPCs are more common

- NPCs bickering; potentially have to deal with NPC relationships?

- Nearly nothing to loot that hasn't been already.

- Must keep and protect fully functioning safehouse.

- Potential to leave to another map? (Possible Transit using Automotive Skill/Vehicles)

- Winter is here, and it sucks.

 

6.) Endgame (6 Months - 1 year)

- Zombies continue migrating; constant danger.

- Bandit safehouse either taken down or growing. Maybe another Bandit Safehouse is established.

- Bandit NPCs hassle any attempt to leave Safehouse. Attack safehouse often.

- NPCs under pressure. Potential for NPC births?

- Possible winter season issues with farming food (hope canning/preserving added to game by this point)

- Water Collectors potentially freezing, causing issues (hope electric heaters/generators added to game by this point)

- Lots more fighting on all sides to protect safehouse and your NPCs.

- Potential to leave to another map is very very attractive.

- Repeats from Step 3; keeping your repopulating society going and smacking down zombies & bandits.

- Seasons start getting warmer as things progress

 

NPCs and bandits? 

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As far as why a disease that turns people into corpses kill plants it's pretty obvious. The sole prerogative of the zombie virus to is eradicate mankind, one of the most effective ways to do this would be to kill off plant life. Zombies don't digest people since they are dead, and they don't have some sort of queen or society meaning the only thing that could explain their actions is that the virus goal is the extinction of mankind.

Now if your arguing about scientifically how a zombie virus would kill plants then that would be pretty pointless. I mean there are multiple ways it could work in fiction and it already reanimates dead corpses so I think there is a good deal of arm room here.

Diseases are not conscious entities, their goal is not to eliminate mankind. If anything their goal (although not conscious) is to survive long enough to reproduce.

 

 

Didn't plan on responding to this but since thread  was revive i'll go at it. The zombie plague is obvoiusly not about reproduction . Biting/scratching is pretty much the worst transmission method possible for a disease, and zombies don't care about their own well being. These two facts combined easily shows that reproduction is not their prerogative. With normal animals, the only thing they put above their own survival is that off their offspring seeing that their most important prerogative is to the continuation of their species. Which zombies don't have, they literally just crave killing humans. Also note that the zombie species are not even sustainable so it makes no sense for them to crave reproduction, the majority of all zombies will be gone in 3-5 years from rotting away completely; regardless of the amount of humans they kill.

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Your deductions Bullet, are quite false I'm sorry to say. You cannot base the function of a disease by it's symptoms and spreading mechanisms. Rabies is spread by biting and kills many of those it spreads to, making it not worthwile to spread to those animals, but still it does and still it's main purpose is to spread. The black plaque killed millions of people in the middle ages and it wasn't a "sustainable disease" as you seem to think that is required to determine the function of the disease. And here the zombie isn't the one spreading. It isn't the beast that the man turns into, it is the disease that turns the man to that beast. Same as with rabies. There's one disease that's even more close to actual zombieism, but I can't remember it atm so I won't use it as an example just yet.

 

If we assume that it is a disease and the spreading mechanism is biting and scratching, isn't it quite effective if it can turn the world populace to a spreading host in a matter of months? Also diseases as said aren't thinking entities, they don't know that there's a limit of how many it can affect. They just repeat the process until there's nothing more to do and then they die. It's simply how most diseases work.

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So i am having trouble quoting, it just does not want to work... so imagine if this was all quotes here ;)

As far as why a disease that turns people into corpses kill plants it's pretty obvious. The sole prerogative of the zombie virus to is eradicate mankind, one of the most effective ways to do this would be to kill off plant life. Zombies don't digest people since they are dead, and they don't have some sort of queen or society meaning the only thing that could explain their actions is that the virus goal is the extinction of mankind.

Now if your arguing about scientifically how a zombie virus would kill plants then that would be pretty pointless. I mean there are multiple ways it could work in fiction and it already reanimates dead corpses so I think there is a good deal of arm room here.

Diseases are not conscious entities, their goal is not to eliminate mankind. If anything their goal (although not conscious) is to survive long enough to reproduce.

Didn't plan on responding to this but since thread was revive i'll go at it. The zombie plague is obvoiusly not about reproduction . Biting/scratching is pretty much the worst transmission method possible for a disease, and zombies don't care about their own well being. These two facts combined easily shows that reproduction is not their prerogative. With normal animals, the only thing they put above their own survival is that off their offspring seeing that their most important prerogative is to the continuation of their species. Which zombies don't have, they literally just crave killing humans. Also note that the zombie species are not even sustainable so it makes no sense for them to crave reproduction, the majority of all zombies will be gone in 3-5 years from rotting away completely; regardless of the amount of humans they kill.

If we assume that it is a disease and the spreading mechanism is biting and scratching, isn't it quite effective if it can turn the world populace to a spreading host in a matter of months? Also diseases as said aren't thinking entities, they don't know that there's a limit of how many it can affect. They just repeat the process until there's nothing more to do and then they die. It's simply how most diseases work.

This is where i begin typing :)

Well actually a virus' goal is to reproduce their offspring. Looking at a majority of viruses that exist today that infect humans, they generally "hijack" a cell in your body. Say they just hijacked your red blood cell. What they typically do is inject their DNA into your cell, killing the virus in the process. The cell, now with the new DNA, will start to produce more and more viruses, and unleash tons of them to go infect more cells. Ultimately their goal is to reproduce. However, not everything is sustainable. According to Darwin's law of survival of the fittest, the animals/plants ( or in this case biotic/abiotic beings ), the ones with the best traits, survive. However, Darwin's theory does not happen over night. It typically takes many many years. This zombie virus, although effective at first, will soon be eradicated due to Darwin's theory, because it will not be able to effectively reproduce, and will effectively become extinct (most likely). I am agreeing with you on the zombies rotting away part, but i disagree with your saying that the zombie virus is not about reproducing. However, this game will not likely introduce the idea of zombie corpses rotting away, otherwise the game will obtain a basic end goal of surviving the virus. Although it would likely happen if there was a real life zombie virus, The devs would not include it due to them not wanting an end game.

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Indeed, the zombies are merely infected hosts. The plague itself is the actual reproducing entity. It may very well infect all manner of thing. Hell it might even be anarobic bacteria that grows on inorganic things. It might lay dormant for thousands of years in sediment. The fact that zombies have no self-preservation does not address the plague itself reproducing. It is merely a vector for said plague to extend its own longevity and see to the reproduction of it in new hosts. But behind the scenes this very same plague might actually enjoy growing on ferns more without actually killing the host. Just because it attacks humans does not mean humans are the only habitat of said plague.

 

It might grow on fish scales for all we know. Absolutely harmless to the intended carrier. Think of Ebola for instance. It is fatal to humans and tends to kill off humans faster than actually spreading among them. However the disease itself does not rely on humans to do so, humans are merely collateral. The disease breaks out every few years but frankly we don't even really know from where exactly.

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"Also, there is one golden rule of proper zombie films IMO. Satirized by Shaun of the Dead perfectly. It should never be really explained why the dead are rising. You can think it's a virus, and there's sure to be scientists working under that assumption. It can be spread from zombie to person like some infection, but we don't want to black and white state it's a virus and not, say, some supernatural apocalypse.

Even though it is very likely a virus in actuality." - Lemmy101 2011 ;)

 

found here:

 

The discussion is kinda moot.... Its not a virus  :o.... but at the same time, its not Black Magic, its not the Wrath of God, its not radiation brought back from the Venus probe.... its UNDEFINED

 

 

So i am having trouble quoting, it just does not want to work... so imagine if this was all quotes here ;)

 

The later versions of IE have issues with this forum, try installing a third party browser like Chrome or Firefox ;)

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"Also, there is one golden rule of proper zombie films IMO. Satirized by Shaun of the Dead perfectly. It should never be really explained why the dead are rising. You can think it's a virus, and there's sure to be scientists working under that assumption. It can be spread from zombie to person like some infection, but we don't want to black and white state it's a virus and not, say, some supernatural apocalypse.

Even though it is very likely a virus in actuality." - Lemmy101 2011 ;)

found here:

The discussion is kinda moot.... Its not a virus :o.... but at the same time, its not Black Magic, its not the Wrath of God, its not radiation brought back from the Venus probe.... its UNDEFINED

Another thing that the zombie plaugue could be caused by is a fungus. The Ophiocordyceps unilateralis ( aka cordyceps, taken from the game, "The Last Of Us") is a fungus that hijacks an ant's brain and causes it to help the fungus to develop and reproduce. Perhaps a fungi mutated and instead infected humans ( and i know people are gonna be like "well why does it need flesh?". Truth really is no one will know unless something like this did occur). I'm not saying that this is the case for the outbreak, but I am agreeing with the statement that the plaugue can come from anywhere, that there are many reasons why something like this would occur. And remember, this is a fake game... not real life.

Ooh and i somewhat got quoting to work yay!

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i don't understand why people want to try so hard to define that which will remain undefined. if we were supposed to know what caused it in the first place they would have told us, or hinted at it in some type of storyline that would play the first time you joined the game.

(Kate and Baldspot style.)

 

it is what it is, just have fun and try not to get killed too often. don't over think or over analyze it, it's just a game.

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