Russia - Ukraine

[123Imirish]

 

 

Snip

im agree with the screaming into the ears  every five minutes thing, Although it is only around 1% of the gay population it gets super annoying, I also don't like some gay pride parades because they are so outlandish and sexual  that it makes people see gays as sluts with squeaky voices, it enhances gay stereotypes and makes the rest of us who just want to get on with our lives as freaks because of that 1%.  The 99% have to pay for it. Please don't ban me ;(    

also this thread is Russia-Ukraine why are we talking about gay rights?

 

 

*Looks around*... because you started it? :/ This whole time I was talking and explaining things to you. You got it right - Russians has seen enough of those "gay activists" that "scream into people's ears" that whenever someone mentions homosexual, they immediately think of them as those squeaky, overly feminine, annoying wits. And about the law - once again (sorry if you already understood it) they only ban the propaganda of it (meaning you can't teach X on X sexual relationships in school), nobody's rights are taken away. There is no law that specifically says that X on X intercourse is a crime. You can breathe out.

EDIT: 1% of population or not, in Russia they are the most noticed ones, since the "quiet" or "normal" ones are a minority that are actually smart and keep their closets closed.

 

Let's get back to Russia - Ukraine issue.

 

 

being in the closet is when nobody knows you  are gay (family + friends) the smart ones are out of the closet but not cramming it down people throats,  But you are right Back to Russia and Ukraine This post may have been very intoxicated with 

hypocriticalness

[Kirrus]

?

[Keepbro]

I've just had this wonderful idea for a comic based on an army of homosexual freedom fighters united under the command of General Gaylord and his very disciplined Rainbow battalion fighting off Putin's army of special forces ninja bigots.

The reveal is that Putin is found out to be a closet case.

 

But seriously it looks like there's going to be a civil war in Ukraine any minute now and worse that Putin seems to be encouraging it in a not really kind of way (i.e by supplying tanks, apcs and combat equipment). Shouldn't the West be doing the same thing in a not really kind of way?

 

(Sorry all the double speak gets me confused)

[Cdr.Keen]

What's your media reporting about Slowjansk and Ponomarjow?

 

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-osze-beobachter-slowjansk-warnungen-vor-ponomarjow-a-966455.html

 

"Pro-russia rebels take OSZE observers as hostage - it's like terrorism"

[LeoIvanov]

What's your media reporting about Slowjansk and Ponomarjow?

 

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-osze-beobachter-slowjansk-warnungen-vor-ponomarjow-a-966455.html

 

"Pro-russia rebels take OSZE observers as hostage - it's like terrorism"

 

Our media reports it as it is - a little bit less "extreme" like in your case.

 

http://lifenews.ru/news/132062

 

"According to Ponomaryov a group of OSZE observers has been captured. He thinks those were career officers of intelligence.

 

He reports that among the military ribbons he also found maps with all the outposts marked on it, which proves their intelligence activities under the excuse of "OSZE" mission.

 

- These people usually sneak into city to do a diversion. Hunta has done so many lies it doesn't know what else to do anymore. Their comments are abysmal. They'd be better off writing fantasy books, - said Ponomaryov"

EDIT: 

 

But seriously it looks like there's going to be a civil war in Ukraine any minute now and worse that Putin seems to be encouraging it in a not really kind of way (i.e by supplying tanks, apcs and combat equipment). Shouldn't the West be doing the same thing in a not really kind of way?

 

(Sorry all the double speak gets me confused)

 

Isn't it West and US that is agreeing with the current Prime Minister's accusations of people being "terrorists" or "separatists" and approves him using the military forces against them? I'm sorry, but if it isn't a definition of "encouraging the civil war", then what is?

[Kirrus]

Yay for proxy wars. Because Afganistan never taught anyone anything.

[Aricane]

 

What's your media reporting about Slowjansk and Ponomarjow?

 

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-osze-beobachter-slowjansk-warnungen-vor-ponomarjow-a-966455.html

 

"Pro-russia rebels take OSZE observers as hostage - it's like terrorism"

 

Our media reports it as it is - a little bit less "extreme" like in your case.

 

http://lifenews.ru/news/132062

 

"According to Ponomaryov a group of OSZE observers has been captured. He thinks those were career officers of intelligence.

 

He reports that among the military ribbons he also found maps with all the outposts marked on it, which proves their intelligence activities under the excuse of "OSZE" mission.

 

- These people usually sneak into city to do a diversion. Hunta has done so many lies it doesn't know what else to do anymore. Their comments are abysmal. They'd be better off writing fantasy books, - said Ponomaryov"

EDIT: 

 

But seriously it looks like there's going to be a civil war in Ukraine any minute now and worse that Putin seems to be encouraging it in a not really kind of way (i.e by supplying tanks, apcs and combat equipment). Shouldn't the West be doing the same thing in a not really kind of way?

 

(Sorry all the double speak gets me confused)

 

Isn't it West and US that is agreeing with the current Prime Minister's accusations of people being "terrorists" or "separatists" and approves him using the military forces against them? I'm sorry, but if it isn't a definition of "encouraging the civil war", then what is?

 

I'm pretty sure the US and EU does everything to prevent the Prime Minister to engage the Ukranian military. This in their eyes gives Russia the "leverage" to intervene.

 

To be frank I think Russia is the only one who can make sure that the cities remain part of Ukraine. Russia is the only ones they listens to. How is Russia trying to convince the separatists to leave the buildings? Everything the west do it just interpreted as pro-facism :S

[Cdr.Keen]

for me it looks like one part of the ukraine likes to be in the EU, and another part wants to join russia. and each side don't like to give up the other side.

 

it's like a dissolution, and EU and russia are the lawyers who take everything as possible to keep it in their household. and we all know one side will bleed badly, but the ones who really suffer are the children (ukraine citizens).

[lordixi]

What's your media reporting about Slowjansk and Ponomarjow?

"Pro-russia rebels take OSZE observers as hostage - it's like terrorism"

Official comment from self declared "Donezk Republic".

http://eriklobakh.livejournal.com/1773531.html

Here translation by "google translate" (sorry, but it's hard to translate it by myself as I'm not free english speaker):

("DNR" means "Donezk Republic")

MFA DNR comment on the detention

military mission in the town of Slavic.

April 26 near the town of Slavyansk was detained military mission, composed of officers of the OSCE countries - four representatives of Germany, representatives of Poland, the Czech Republic, Denmark and Sweden .

Initial application of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, as well as statements German Foreign Ministry and other countries demanding the immediate release "of detained OSCE" Donetsk addressed the People's Republic has aroused bewilderment.

We want to stress that, in accordance with the official documents of the OSCE, such as "The OSCE's response to the crisis in Ukraine" dated April 10, 2014 , it was exclusively civilian observers of the OSCE and "Any change to send observers can occur only by the decision of the Permanent Council OSCE." Thus, detainees obviously have no mandate agreed at the meeting of the Special meeting of the OSCE Permanent Council, decided to place a special OSCE monitoring mission in Ukraine (Decision number 1117) and is not an "OSCE observers."

Now the government in Kiev recalls its right to invite military observers , trying to establish his position on the provisions of the "Vienna Document 2011 on confidence- and security."

Compelled to note that the authorities in Kiev and the OSCE selectively read this document, and overlooked by many inconvenient for them the key provisions of this document. Forced to remind forgetful international partners following.

According to the text , the scope of this document are subject to the armed forces of the countries - participants , including Ukraine , "up to brigade / regiment or equivalent level." At the same time, under the Vienna Document observed warheads fall under the document is : "infantry, armored, mechanized, motorized infantry, artillery, combat engineer, airmobile and airborne units, and army aviation." The document contains no provisions allowing broadly interpret this list .

We wonder what kind of "infantry, armored, mechanized,motorized infantry, artillery, engineering, airmobile and airborne units, and army aviation units ," up to brigade or regiment hoped to find inspectors in cities Slavic and Kramators'k and how their visit associated with restrictions, precisely defined the Vienna Document . Also we would like to get an explanation why military inspectors on maps detail the light barricades held by small groups of civilians, but there is no trace surveillance military equipment, aircraft, and regular units subordinated to Kiev, placed near the town of Slavic and Kramators'k , and also raisins, numbering up to 15,000 people, which falls under the right thing based on the inspection of the Vienna Document .

In addition, we should point out that the authorities in Kiev on the eve of the detention of members of the military mission right neglected obligations under the Vienna Document , which imposes an obligation on the part of parties to certain responsibilities for incidents of a military nature .

"The participating States will co-operate by reporting hazardous incidents of a military nature ... Every State - party will designate a point of contact in the event of such hazardous incidents and inform all other participating States." (Sections 17 and 17.1 of the Vienna Document). To our knowledge, no notice about the hostilities in the east of Kiev was not directed, nor was created and "Point of contact in the event of dangerous incidents."

This raises the question , what was the formal reason for the direction of this military mission , if the parties have not fixed even "dangerous incidents".

Furthermore, the purpose of the invitation to the military mission of a foreign state as defined by the Vienna Document, "to assist in eliminating concerns about military activities in the zone of application for CSBMs and security ... Among the States invited to participate in such visits will include those States that is intended to have such concerns."

We strongly wish to clarify which concerns a military nature and when there were at Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Denmark and Sweden against the threats to them from Slovyansk as well as where and how these concerns were articulated. Unfortunately, despite the Vienna Document proclaimed the principle of "transparency" of all the above activities ,we could not find traces of their own compliance with established procedures on the part of said group of international partners, in accordance with the Vienna Document. Forced to assume in advance that no evidence of the legality of the documents and the formation and extension of delayed April 26 Slovyansk Military Mission to us and will not be shown, due to their absence.

Believe them that if now outraged representatives of Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Denmark, Sweden and conscientiously treat their OSCE commitments , and inspection of the Military Mission were sent to Ukraine with the purposes and in the manner and with the mandate clearly stated Vienna Document, without departing from its scope , said the situation could not arise.

In this regard, forced to curl that we reject the legitimacy of the Mission, and the detention of representatives from Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Denmark and Sweden to complete all the circumstances and the real purpose of their activity is lawful and justified.

At the same time, the MFA DNR immediately ready to take part in consultations about the procedures and conditions for the release of all detainees, after receiving formal requests from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the countries concerned or the OSCE to our address . Such negotiations, with the consent of the Russian side, on which we rely, if necessary, can be held in Moscow on the basis of our Moscow office, which is also as a representative of the OSCE, as well as diplomatic representatives of all the countries concerned.

Foreign Minister E. Gubaryov DNR .

April 27, 2014

If speak short:

1. OSZE announce only civilian observers, but these one was military observers.

2. Their work at Slavjansk are illegal and contradicts to "Vienna Document 2011 on confidence and security".

3. Their work most seems like spying (not spying, but "most seems like spying"). For example, they had maps with protestants position, but without Ukrainian military positions; they were inspect where is no military forces of Ukraine; and they lied about the purpose of their visit during detention.

Also watch confirmation of it on german here: http://tvthek.orf.at/program/ZIB-24/1225/ZIB-24/7837001/Gespraech-mit-Claus-Neukirch-von-der-OSZE/7837005

 

for me it looks like one part of the ukraine likes to be in the EU, and another part wants to join russia.

Another part of Ukraine is pro-Russian but they don't wants to join Russia. They says that they solve this conflict by themselves without Russian help. Also Putin clearly sad in April press-conference that budget of Russia had reserve about $245 billions for 2014 year. Crimea will take about $100 billions (it without bridge in Kerchenski strait). So if Russia takes SE Ukraine, it's economic will goes down.

 

How is Russia trying to convince the separatists to leave the buildings?

The position of EU and US is that there is only South-Eastern Ukraine rebels (separatists). The position of Russia is that there is Western-Central Ukraine rebels and South-Eastern Ukraine rebels. And Russia speaks only with this position.

1. Lavrov sad, that Geneve convention must be performed by rebels on both sides. As Western-Central Ukraine was first in occupying buildings, so Western-Central Ukraine must be first in leaving building. And especially "Right Sector" radicals must be disarmed.

2. Also Lavrov sad, that present self-declared Ukrainian government must perform Geneve convention ny itself to stop this conflict meaning that other countries must not interfere to the internal affairs of the Ukraine.

3. Official "Donezk Republic" (saw it on youtube) sad, that they will free buildings, after pro-Kiev will begin to do the same. Same about illegal weapons.

4. In SE Ukraine people understands, that if they would leave buildings first and lay down weapons, Kiev wouldn't do the same and none of their request would be performed. It will be only mass arrest. That's why if Russia would ask only SE Ukraine to leaving buildings, SE Ukraine will not obey.

p.s. How was EU and US tried to convince the rebels to leave the buildings in January-February 2014?

[Hopeless Frank]

 

[...] here was a lot of stuff worth reading! [...]

 

 

As a fellow european internet-expert i could only say, listen to that guy above me. If u think he is wrong watch a season or two of "House of Cards" and think again... Neither side of this, Nato or Russia, is telling the truth  or has "honest intentions" but one has to admit that this time the russians are far more reasonable in arguing and also have far less direct lies in their propaganda than the gone wild Ashtons, Rassmussens or Kerrys from "our" western / nato side of view.

[Kirrus]

Russia is certainly not taking a passive role in propaganda;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/17/crimea-crisis-russia-propaganda-media

[Hopeless Frank]

Russia is certainly not taking a passive role in propaganda;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/17/crimea-crisis-russia-propaganda-media

 and is said that russia did so where exactly?

my point was simply, that the propaganda we see in our evening news about this conflict is - this time - even less believable than the russian one...

[Keepbro]

So I'm just wondering how far one can take a proxy war?

 

So I'm guessing its ok to equip guys with personnel military equipment such as body armour, guns and grenades and stuff. Also it seems to be ok to equip people with cool rides such as humvees, jeeps and those cool kickass looking APCs that blow up in one hit if you fire on them with bazookas in ARMA 2.

 

My question is where does one stop at equipping proxy forces? Im guessing artillery is alright but what about Battle tanks? Are they ok? Helicopter Gunships? Proxy predator drones? Are the smaller tactical nukes ok (the ones with very small yields and practically no fallout)? Is some of the lesser biological weapons such as minor plagues and weaponized ringworm ok? What about Chlorine bombs?

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[EnigmaGrey]

I was under the impression much of the weapons/vechiles shown on separatists were taken from the Ukraine military or given by sympathizers.  I really don't know enough about their equipment to validate this.

[lordixi]

Little update about OSZE observers.

1. Yesterday Putin on sad that he hope that these inspectors will be relesed soon.

2. Yesterday Churkin in UN sad that Russia tries to convince rebels to release observers.

(don't post links because both of them is youtube's video in russian.)

3. Ponomarev (leader of SE Ukraine rebels in Slavyansk) said the there is a progress in the negotiations for the release of the OSCE inspectors

Other news.

As usual: *.ru - pro-russian media, *.ua - pro-ukrainian

Maidans vs Maidans (Right Sector vs Self-Defence of Maidan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L9JzLYiQKiQ

It' was in Kiev. And of course Ukrainian media sad that it's due the Putin.

City Lugans (SE Ukarine) was taken by rebels

http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/04/29/7024000/

Kerry: U.S. Taped Moscow’s Calls to Its Ukraine Spies

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html

US State Department denies Kerry's words on tapping on pro-federalization activists in eastern Ukraine

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_30/US-State-Department-denies-Kerrys-words-on-tapping-on-pro-federalization-activists-in-eastern-Ukraine-4357/

Both news in english.

Soldiers of National Guard of Ukraine took the checkpoint under the Slavyansk

http://lifenews.ru/news/132365

Rebels just went away when saw soldiers. I hope rebels leave some food and cigarrets for them.

About one-side propaganda in Germany (in german)

[Cdr.Keen]

So I'm just wondering how far one can take a proxy war?

 

So I'm guessing its ok to equip guys with personnel military equipment such as body armour, guns and grenades and stuff. Also it seems to be ok to equip people with cool rides such as humvees, jeeps and those cool kickass looking APCs that blow up in one hit if you fire on them with bazookas in ARMA 2.

 

My question is where does one stop at equipping proxy forces? Im guessing artillery is alright but what about Battle tanks? Are they ok? Helicopter Gunships? Proxy predator drones? Are the smaller tactical nukes ok (the ones with very small yields and practically no fallout)? Is some of the lesser biological weapons such as minor plagues and weaponized ringworm ok? What about Chlorine bombs?

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

most times it stops itself, because they don't know how to use the arms. of course there are well educated people, but most of the "soldiers" are poor countrymen or unemployed people. they are able to use an ak and maybe got some skills in driving cars, but battle tanks or helicopters are way more complex to operate.

 

they are very dangerous, but it takes time, money and much criminal engery to train forces for "advanced combat". it's easy to download a "how to build an a-bomb", but it takes years of manufactoring and sience to build one.

 

maybe they are able to buy such people in other countries, but you can't buy a whole army without attracting some attention. in worst case, they got a cave with a clone army.

[Kitt Frostpaws]

But seriously it looks like there's going to be a civil war in Ukraine any minute now and worse that Putin seems to be encouraging it in a not really kind of way (i.e by supplying tanks, apcs and combat equipment). Shouldn't the West be doing the same thing in a not really kind of way?

 

(Sorry all the double speak gets me confused)

 

Why can't we just stay out of it for once?

Let them fight, let them kill each other we've got problems within our own borders; Not to sound heartless or anything but I think the political leaders need to start looking at their own damned countries (further up than the capital, may I add) and begin fixing what they've broken.

[Xydonus]

Why can't we just stay out of it for once?

 

Didn't the UK pledged, along with some other EU countries, ...

 

Quid .... Yeah, no chance of them staying out of it now!

 

Wonder where that one billion went too...

[Kirrus]

Ukraine's economy was shot and needed a bailout. Whether they got the bailout from Europe or Russia was the question, and the trigger for this.

[Cdr.Keen]

so russia supports the terrorists in slawjansk.

 

no matter if they are russian too - they are fighting agains the government and the osze. they act like terrorists in the name of russia and the citizens of russia. and instead of stopping it, russia criticises ukraine for trying to stop it.

[LeoIvanov]

so russia supports the terrorists in slawjansk.

 

no matter if they are russian too - they are fighting agains the government and the osze. they act like terrorists in the name of russia and the citizens of russia. and instead of stopping it, russia criticises ukraine for trying to stop it.

 

Again you with your highly extreme "punch to the head" conclusions. This statement, however, kind of reminds me of certain individuals and things that happened back at Maidan... Hmm.

 

And let's all be clear here - Russia criticizes the current GOVERNMENT of Ukraine, the illegitimate one, for sending military and acting like it has all the rights to rule country like that. Criticizing something doesn't necessarily mean supporting the opposite point of view. If I say that the restaurant makes bad food and the current cook needs to be replaced, it doesn't mean I support whoever decides to eat there for free with the threats of suing them for bad quality of food.

[Aricane]

 

so russia supports the terrorists in slawjansk.

 

no matter if they are russian too - they are fighting agains the government and the osze. they act like terrorists in the name of russia and the citizens of russia. and instead of stopping it, russia criticises ukraine for trying to stop it.

 

Again you with your highly extreme "punch to the head" conclusions. This statement, however, kind of reminds me of certain individuals and things that happened back at Maidan... Hmm.

 

And let's all be clear here - Russia criticizes the current GOVERNMENT of Ukraine, the illegitimate one, for sending military and acting like it has all the rights to rule country like that. Criticizing something doesn't necessarily mean supporting the opposite point of view. If I say that the restaurant makes bad food and the current cook needs to be replaced, it doesn't mean I support whoever decides to eat there for free with the threats of suing them for bad quality of food.

 

What do you think the Ukranian government should do, when it's loosing ground to separatists? What would Russia do if it happened there The separatists seem to be in a hurry to manifest a anti-ukranian public oppinion. Why don't they just use their democratic vote and vote for someone who isn't ultranational.

[Aricane]

To be honest. I don't know what would happend if other regions of e.g. Denmark started arming themselves and demanding to be part of another country (or just automous). Denmark probably wouldn't send in its military, but again if the armed protesters we too dangerous, violent and non-negotiable I guess the military is the only option. I think diplomacy would be everyones prefered way to go, but in this case - it is beyond diplomacy. There is nothing really to discuss it seems, since the goverment already offered elections for independancy.

[Cdr.Keen]

[...]

 

Again you with your highly extreme "punch to the head" conclusions.

 

[...]

 

yes, don't take it personally - it's just to heat up the discussion before the topic goes down.

 

btt:

 

ponomarjow is acting like a terrorist, no matter how you look at it. he is forcing ukraine to war and this is all what russia needs to declare the democratic vote as failure and keep ukraine in chaos.

 

imagine some ukraine people will caputre a city inside / at the border of russia. i bet 100% for russia will start a war agains ukraine immediately. but when "someone" for russia captures a city in ukraine, it's ok for russia because ukraine is to small to strike back.

[mikaelkerensky]

What about the 2 helicopters that were downed by pro russian forces? Or the 34 people killed when pro russia and pro ukraine protesters got into it? The violence is escalating.