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Cdr.Keen

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just because he says he's saying it with no bias doesn't mean that there is no bias. That is like the no.1 thing with brainwashing  you get people who claim to have a non biased view and you brainwash the ordinary people

 

 

And moving away from the point, not presenting anything on the matter and blindly accusing someone of brainwashing ordinary people without atleast slightly researching what I meant kind of backfires on what you are saying.

 

Person on the video does not take any particular side - he blames US, EU, Ukraine, Russia - all of them for their own mistakes and explains what particularly is going on and how it is going to affect the country he's living in. By unbiased I clearly meant him not taking anyone's side.

 

To go back on the "homosexual propaganda banned in Russia" issue (Sorry if it's offending anyone) - you gotta understand that Russia has had majority of it's population with christian religion for a long time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Russia), including those that were in charge. It's really hard to make a lot of people hate something just because you want it - the whole "Russians hate homosexuals" did not come from Putin, it existed before, because people from childbirth were told that homosexual relationships are wrong, and if now suddenly schools started teaching "homosexual" stuff (subjects, you name them), SUPRESSING majority of parents would just refuse to take their children to school. Putin has stated countless amount of times that people with non traditional orientation have the same amount of rights as a normal citizen, so commiting a crime against one isn't special, and will have the same punishment as if you did it to normal person. The country and it's CULTURE is why homosexuals don't feel welcome in Russia, not the laws. I'd really love it if you people understood it.

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The country and it's CULTURE is why homosexuals don't feel welcome in Russia, not the laws. I'd really love it if you people understood it.

With all due respect, I remember the exact same phrase being applied to the Jews in the Soviet times...

 

IMHO, it's neither the country nor the culture - some people just need to have an "enemy" looming on the horizon all the time, regardless of who that enemy actually is. The easiest choice is somebody whose values and ideals are somehow opposed (or just different) to our own. It's the same in every country I visited - the only thing that changes is the actual "enemy". Well, "changes" might be too big a word for a chocie of homosexuals, jews, immigrants and muslims. Different and not fully understood = easy to hate.

 

So, why is Russia being called out to the spotlight ? First of all, the anti-homosexual acts have been quite high-profile and the media loves such stories. Second, lately we have been the talk of the world - not very happy talk to say the least. "So", the media think "let's add some more fuel to that fire !". The same thing basically happened with the US and the Snowden media blitz - the only thing the media care about is their ratings.

 

As for the "no bias" thread - it's good to remember that there is no such thing. Everyone has some agenda whether they realise it or not - the guy may well believe that he is being unbiased, but that is simply not the way our brains work. Whether it's a brainwashing ateempt or a person acting in good will (which we will never know, by the way), the outcome may be exactly the same. Just to keep in mind. ;-]

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<snip> The country and it's CULTURE is why homosexuals don't feel welcome in Russia, not the laws. I'd really love it if you people understood it.

 

Oh, we totally get it, don't misunderstand us. Our countries are going through a really painful period, whereby acceptance to homosexuality is becoming mainstream, and hate against verboten. This includes a rather large segment of the religious & christian population, who are starting to accept it as 'normal', and to go back and actually read the offending literature again with no bias. This is a hot topic in the anglican-church over here right now, and there are many very enlightening blog-posts being made on the subject.

 

From our perspective, as a culture that's coming into the light kicking and screaming, seeing what is done to innocents in the name of religion is appalling, and russia for all it's equality, doesn't prosecute hate-crime offenders equally. Saying that, my country is currently trying to kill as many disabled and sick people as possible, and the US government is continuing to try and lock up as many people as possible, whilst having an insane medical system. Please excuse gross simplifications, they're here to make a point. We're all dirty, messy humans, and we're all just trying to make a better world.

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The country and it's CULTURE is why homosexuals don't feel welcome in Russia, not the laws. I'd really love it if you people understood it.

With all due respect, I remember the exact same phrase being applied to the Jews in the Soviet times...

 

IMHO, it's neither the country nor the culture - some people just need to have an "enemy" looming on the horizon all the time, regardless of who that enemy actually is. The easiest choice is somebody whose values and ideals are somehow opposed (or just different) to our own. It's the same in every country I visited - the only thing that changes is the actual "enemy". Well, "changes" might be too big a word for a chocie of homosexuals, jews, immigrants and muslims. Different and not fully understood = easy to hate.

 

So, why is Russia being called out to the spotlight ? First of all, the anti-homosexual acts have been quite high-profile and the media loves such stories. Second, lately we have been the talk of the world - not very happy talk to say the least. "So", the media think "let's add some more fuel to that fire !". The same thing basically happened with the US and the Snowden media blitz - the only thing the media care about is their ratings.

 

As for the "no bias" thread - it's good to remember that there is no such thing. Everyone has some agenda whether they realise it or not - the guy may well believe that he is being unbiased, but that is simply not the way our brains work. Whether it's a brainwashing ateempt or a person acting in good will (which we will never know, by the way), the outcome may be exactly the same. Just to keep in mind. ;-]

 

 

Well, as far as I understood - Jew is both a religion and race in some sort of meaning. Favoring Judaism as the religion (And as far as I can guess - we know who Judas is in Christian/Catholic religion) it's not difficult to imagine that people would hate the religion that is opposite of theirs (again - I haven't checked my facts, don't call me out on it). What I'm getting at is this isn't even a religion, and being homosexual has been considered a mental disease for many decades for as long as christian population was a majority. It's fair to assume that homosexuals are just a "scapegoat" for Russians to throw their hate on, but there's more story behind it.

 

I, for example, was always taught that it's strictly forbidden to have X on X intercourse/relationship, that it isn't right etc and it was mirrored in my head as something extraordinary/bad (I was "programmed" to think of homosexual relationships in a similar way as I was taught to think about pedophilia).

 

I just don't want to imagine how people in other countries will start to react when suddenly majority of Europe, Russia and some other big countries will start accepting pedophilia as "normal". Will there be a big fuss about it? Sure. Is it a food for thought? Yes. You GOTTA understand that it's just not easy for Russians to go and "accept" homosexual relationships, as easy as it may sound. There are many hypocrites that hate gays, yet they won't mind if two girls kiss each other, and the other way around. I fell into that category for a good while until recent years. Now I just don't really care what homosexuals do, as long as they don't scream it directly into my face or remind me of it 5 times a minute. A special kind of theirs exist that are way too feminine and self-absorbed. Those piss me off to the brink, not the ones who media might make you think.

 

There just ain't enough independent people (those that follow no religion/haven't decided yet) to widely accept homosexuals as a norm, and as much as government would attempt to help, It would probably take decades before they are widely accepted. We are not the same as Europe or America, and like other countries, we have something that you WON'T like. But it's most likely not going to change.

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Well, as far as I understood - Jew is both a religion and race in some sort of meaning. Favoring Judaism as the religion (And as far as I can guess - we know who Judas is in Christian/Catholic religion) it's not difficult to imagine that people would hate the religion that is opposite of theirs (again - I haven't checked my facts, don't call me out on it). What I'm getting at is this isn't even a religion, and being homosexual has been considered a mental disease for many decades for as long as christian population was a majority. It's fair to assume that homosexuals are just a "scapegoat" for Russians to throw their hate on, but there's more story behind it.

Pretty much so, however, in the jewish case it was actually endorsed by the government, whereas now the government seems to be rather passive on the issue.

 

I remember seeing a poster like this during my childhood:

ansemi.jpg

Well, that was another region and a slightly different time. Nowadays, some nasty stuff is sticked/sprayed onto walls every now and then, but it's marginal. That and it's hard to compare the mindsets of people living in Piter and in "rural" Karelija

 

 

I, for example, was always taught that it's strictly forbidden to have X on X intercourse/relationship, that it isn't right etc and it was mirrored in my head as something extraordinary/bad (I was "programmed" to think of homosexual relationships in a similar way as I was taught to think about pedophilia).

It depends on the region - I grew up in a rather traditional community, where homosexuality was "frowned upon", but any actual talk about it being bad/forbidden was reserved for boys, it seems. On the other hand, in Piter, we had a "gay pride" action last year. It ended badly though - with pro-gay and anti-gay demonstrants fighting being broken up by a police intervention. Not sure what became of the subject though...

I just don't want to imagine how people in other countries will start to react when suddenly majority of Europe, Russia and some other big countries will start accepting pedophilia as "normal". Will there be a big fuss about it? Sure. Is it a food for thought? Yes. You GOTTA understand that it's just not easy for Russians to go and "accept" homosexual relationships, as easy as it may sound.

Exactly - it's a big change in mindset, that will take some time getting used to. The West has had this issue for a longer time than we have and, hence, have already adapted (at least partially). If talking about problematic social matters, I would actually compare our "homosexuality issue" with the "muslim immigrants issue" that France (among others of course) currently face - they are both still very fresh and, therefore, sparking a lot of emotions.

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Ukraine will welcome elections in any case. They have no choice. Russia not. Firstly, it will be not easy to believe in results of this elections because of mass armed people. And secondly, it will be not truly elections, if citizens of some Ukrainian reigns will not participate in elections. Position of Russia is:

  1. Stop shooting, remove all illegal weapons (both SE Ukraine and Kiev), leave all illegally occupied buildings (both SE Ukraine and Kiev, not Crimea).
  2. Referendum about federalization, solve the problem of second state language (russian), constitution reform
  3. and only then President Elections.
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Maybe it's just my democratic infected mind, but why would Ukranians want to choose not to have elections? And why won't Russia welcome the elections?

 

Ahh because of the massed armed people. But that was the case on Crimera - mass armed people during elections (and transparent ballot boxes for votes), however those results are widely recognized by Russia and in fact western media AFAIK.

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In Eastern Ukraine, in Kiev and maybe even in Western Ukraine in near future (Zakarpatski region. There is information that they want to decare Republic. But it will be pro-Hungarian, not pro-Russian). It's unofficial Russian position from my point of view (I'm not Putin, not Lavrov and not Churkin)

 

p.s. Sorry. Need to go home so I can continue discussion only tomorrow.

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Sure. I'm really curious how Russia views this. I already know how the western angle on it and I can't believe there can be so big a difference on our perspective. Russia is not a western country, but I can't imagine it could be so much different from them. At the end, we're all people. I imagine Russians share the same dreams as any western citizen. Respect, security and freedom. I guess we all want governments and media we can trust - but even in that regard we are alike. So what is really fueling this divide? If we ignored our politicians and turned of our media, how long would it take to makes friends on either side? Maybe I'm just naive but I refuse to believe we're that different.

I can understand Russian values does not approve homosexuality. Well 20-40 years ago most western countries didn't either. So how can we not understand and respect those values.

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Agree. It must be peace, respecting, security and freedom, but only if this freedom is not all-permissiveness.

 

Some news from "hot spot" Slavayansk and more. First and (especially! must see!) second are in english.

24.04.2014: Extraordinary U.S. Military Movements in last 72 Hours (in english)

http://www.turnerradionetwork.com/news/449-pat

Wow! It's seriously. Russia would feel scare, but... ou! Just look at first video in this news and that one. They are the same, but the second video was published in 24.09.2013!

Super video from Slavyansk (after attack) in english!

Simply and effectively explains what Ukrainian National Guard fights for. And another proof of that in video below...

Propaganda from helicopters

Quote from this paper: "3. If you see ... walking people any age and any appearance, carrying bags with food - tell about them to nearest police officer, army officer or Special Service of Ukraine."

Many videos and photos from Slavyansk

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1557218.html

Ukraine stops military operation after Russia military exercises began.

http://russian.rt.com/article/29195#ixzz2zoWPYMJd

"Nice" live timeline about yeasteday events in english.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-government-troops-move-against-pro-russian-separatists-live-updates

It's "nice" because it's mostly speaks about russian military exercises on border and less about Slavyansk events

Three blockposts near Slavyansk taken, 5 rebels dead

http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/4/24/683744.html

SWAT "Alpha" from Special Service of Ukraine (FBI analog) evaded anti-terrorist operation Slovyansk

http://censor.net.ua/news/282582/spetsnaz_alfa_sbu_uklonilsya_ot_antiterroristicheskoyi_operatsii_v_slavyanske_jurnalist

Real military don't want to shoot into rebels and citizens. In the front of attack was new National Guardian.

"Right Sector" blocked administrative building in Ivano-Frankovsk region.

http://ria.ru/world/20140424/1005329271.html#13983999231114&message=resize&relto=login&action=removeClass&value=registration

In Ternopil activists attempted to assault the city council

http://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/accidents/v-ternopole-aktivisty-predprinyali-popytku-shturma-gorsoveta-25042014104400

"Right Sector" has moved to the border with Transnistria, and possibly preparing for annexation

http://www.newsru.com/world/25apr2014/psekt.html

All three events are in Western Ukraine! Where is Security Service of Ukraine? Where is anti-terroristic operation?

Yarosh: Free Ukrainian - is armed ukrainian

http://russian.rt.com/inotv/2014-04-24/YArosh-Svobodnij-ukrainec---eto

Author of "russian saboteurs" photos claimed about falsification

http://ria.ru/world/20140424/1005260470.html#13983933833094&message=resize&relto=login&action=removeClass&value=registration

Kiev kindergartens do not have enough food for kids

http://kiev.segodnya.ua/kpeople/v-kievskih-detsadah-ne-hvataet-edy-dlya-detey-515687.html

It's pro-Ukrainian media.

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Is anyone else confused by the sheer amount of double talk going on from both sides in this soon to be civil-war-conflict?

 

I mean are they seperatists, freedom fighters, terrorists or soldiers with no insignias?

 

Is the current interim government a despotic tyranny, an unelected parliament of the people or a rump administration?

 

Are the Wesern powers interferring, trying to help or trying to screw Putin?

 

Am I losing interest, horribly concerned or wondering what the hell any of this has to do with me?

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my country is currently trying to kill as many disabled and sick people as possible, and the US government is continuing to try and lock up as many people as possible, whilst having an insane medical system.

 

*Comic relief post warning*

Can't let those damn dirty elderly live either!

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The country and it's CULTURE is why homosexuals don't feel welcome in Russia, not the laws. I'd really love it if you people understood it.

With all due respect, I remember the exact same phrase being applied to the Jews in the Soviet times...

 

IMHO, it's neither the country nor the culture - some people just need to have an "enemy" looming on the horizon all the time, regardless of who that enemy actually is. The easiest choice is somebody whose values and ideals are somehow opposed (or just different) to our own. It's the same in every country I visited - the only thing that changes is the actual "enemy". Well, "changes" might be too big a word for a chocie of homosexuals, jews, immigrants and muslims. Different and not fully understood = easy to hate.

 

So, why is Russia being called out to the spotlight ? First of all, the anti-homosexual acts have been quite high-profile and the media loves such stories. Second, lately we have been the talk of the world - not very happy talk to say the least. "So", the media think "let's add some more fuel to that fire !". The same thing basically happened with the US and the Snowden media blitz - the only thing the media care about is their ratings.

 

As for the "no bias" thread - it's good to remember that there is no such thing. Everyone has some agenda whether they realise it or not - the guy may well believe that he is being unbiased, but that is simply not the way our brains work. Whether it's a brainwashing ateempt or a person acting in good will (which we will never know, by the way), the outcome may be exactly the same. Just to keep in mind. ;-]

 

 

Well, as far as I understood - Jew is both a religion and race in some sort of meaning. Favoring Judaism as the religion (And as far as I can guess - we know who Judas is in Christian/Catholic religion) it's not difficult to imagine that people would hate the religion that is opposite of theirs (again - I haven't checked my facts, don't call me out on it). What I'm getting at is this isn't even a religion, and being homosexual has been considered a mental disease for many decades for as long as christian population was a majority. It's fair to assume that homosexuals are just a "scapegoat" for Russians to throw their hate on, but there's more story behind it.

 

I, for example, was always taught that it's strictly forbidden to have X on X intercourse/relationship, that it isn't right etc and it was mirrored in my head as something extraordinary/bad (I was "programmed" to think of homosexual relationships in a similar way as I was taught to think about pedophilia).

 

I just don't want to imagine how people in other countries will start to react when suddenly majority of Europe, Russia and some other big countries will start accepting pedophilia as "normal". Will there be a big fuss about it? Sure. Is it a food for thought? Yes. You GOTTA understand that it's just not easy for Russians to go and "accept" homosexual relationships, as easy as it may sound. There are many hypocrites that hate gays, yet they won't mind if two girls kiss each other, and the other way around. I fell into that category for a good while until recent years. Now I just don't really care what homosexuals do, as long as they don't scream it directly into my face or remind me of it 5 times a minute. A special kind of theirs exist that are way too feminine and self-absorbed. Those piss me off to the brink, not the ones who media might make you think.

 

There just ain't enough independent people (those that follow no religion/haven't decided yet) to widely accept homosexuals as a norm, and as much as government would attempt to help, It would probably take decades before they are widely accepted. We are not the same as Europe or America, and like other countries, we have something that you WON'T like. But it's most likely not going to change.

 

im agree with the screaming into the ears  every five minutes thing, Although it is only around 1% of the gay population it gets super annoying, I also don't like some gay pride parades because they are so outlandish and sexual  that it makes people see gays as sluts with squeaky voices, it enhances gay stereotypes and makes the rest of us who just want to get on with our lives as freaks because of that 1%.  The 99% have to pay for it. Please don't ban me ;(   :)  ;)

also this thread is Russia-Ukraine why are we talking about gay rights?

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^^ Because Russia is a democracy and therefore a bastion of homosexuality where Gay people are happy and unpersecuted and gays walk arm in arm with straight people and isn't some country ruled by an ex-spy and run by thugs.

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I love how all of the west is getting their panties in a bunch about Russia protecting its interests, yet they fully supported NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War and later Kosovos independence. Rather hypocritical, don't you think?

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I love how all of the west is getting their panties in a bunch about Russia protecting its interests, yet they fully supported NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War and later Kosovos independence. Rather hypocritical, don't you think?

 

Since you're new here, this isn't a formal warning, but this is not being lovely, which breaks Rule One of the forums. There are ways to say these things without insinuating that the entire west, and by extension all of it's population, is hypocritical. Be more Lovely. Or else. And on this thread in particular we do not want fights, anyone looking to start one will find themselves bouncing up our warning system towards bans pretty quickly.

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I love how all of the west is getting their panties in a bunch about Russia protecting its interests, yet they fully supported NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War and later Kosovos independence. Rather hypocritical, don't you think?

 

Since you're new here, this isn't a formal warning, but this is not being lovely, which breaks Rule One of the forums. There are ways to say these things without insinuating that the entire west, and by extension all of it's population, is hypocritical. Be more Lovely. Or else. And on this thread in particular we do not want fights, anyone looking to start one will find themselves bouncing up our warning system towards bans pretty quickly.

 

 

You have to forgive me but I'm always "irked" by these sorts of threads, I shouldn't have posted in the first place. I'm a pretty lovely person but politics are my downfall. :)

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I love how all of the west is getting their panties in a bunch about Russia protecting its interests, yet they fully supported NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War and later Kosovos independence. Rather hypocritical, don't you think?

 

Since you're new here, this isn't a formal warning, but this is not being lovely, which breaks Rule One of the forums. There are ways to say these things without insinuating that the entire west, and by extension all of it's population, is hypocritical. Be more Lovely. Or else. And on this thread in particular we do not want fights, anyone looking to start one will find themselves bouncing up our warning system towards bans pretty quickly.

 

 

You have to forgive me but I'm always "irked" by these sorts of threads, I shouldn't have posted in the first place. I'm a pretty lovely person but politics are my downfall. :)

 

Fair enough! Welcome to the forums! Be sure to vote for Waffles. ;)

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I love how all of the west is getting their panties in a bunch about Russia protecting its interests, yet they fully supported NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War and later Kosovos independence. Rather hypocritical, don't you think?

The NATO+US dropping bombs on Serbia "issue" (as no other Yugoslavian-originating country was attacked in this way) was already mentioned (AFAIR, page 2-3 of this thread). Not to resurrect that aspect of the discussion, but virtually no details have been established about the Balkan wars, as pretty much every side of the conflict did partake (and the ones that still exist continue doing so) in information control & propaganda actions.

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Snip

im agree with the screaming into the ears  every five minutes thing, Although it is only around 1% of the gay population it gets super annoying, I also don't like some gay pride parades because they are so outlandish and sexual  that it makes people see gays as sluts with squeaky voices, it enhances gay stereotypes and makes the rest of us who just want to get on with our lives as freaks because of that 1%.  The 99% have to pay for it. Please don't ban me ;(   :)   ;)

also this thread is Russia-Ukraine why are we talking about gay rights?

 

 

*Looks around*... because you started it? :/ This whole time I was talking and explaining things to you. You got it right - Russians has seen enough of those "gay activists" that "scream into people's ears" that whenever someone mentions homosexual, they immediately think of them as those squeaky, overly feminine, annoying wits. And about the law - once again (sorry if you already understood it) they only ban the propaganda of it (meaning you can't teach X on X sexual relationships in school), nobody's rights are taken away. There is no law that specifically says that X on X intercourse is a crime. You can breathe out.

EDIT: 1% of population or not, in Russia they are the most noticed ones, since the "quiet" or "normal" ones are a minority that are actually smart and keep their closets closed.

 

Let's get back to Russia - Ukraine issue.

 

 

^^ Because Russia is a democracy and therefore a bastion of homosexuality where Gay people are happy and unpersecuted and gays walk arm in arm with straight people and isn't some country ruled by an ex-spy and run by thugs.

 

Sarcasm is high in this one, but let's not forget that I wasn't the one who started the discussion ;) And god forbid if I start mentioning countries that are also ran by thugs and do worse things than "agree to take the part of land that voted for independence from another country".

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