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Russia - Ukraine


Cdr.Keen

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Yup, they did. And the west just has to accept and swallow the camel. When a nation is capable of achieving its geopolitical goals while noone is able to do anything significant about it, it will do it. Instead of yelling at Russia just accept that it's a big country and does what it wants to, just like the West have been doing for so long.

When the US invaded the Middle east, even though I was only like ten or something, I wouldn't have supported it, If I properly knew what was going on. Why should I support the annexation when Its done by anyone else. Just because people invade other countries doesn't give them the right to do it. I do hope the US stays out of this but if, sorry, WHEN. the situation worsens I will back them up 97%. Sadly the world leaders, media and many humans only care about 1st world countries. This is the first 1st world country to be annexed in a good while, so world war is 67% more likely. Just remember, this is how it started 75 years ago 

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Yup, they did. And the west just has to accept and swallow the camel. When a nation is capable of achieving its geopolitical goals while noone is able to do anything significant about it, it will do it. Instead of yelling at Russia just accept that it's a big country and does what it wants to, just like the West have been doing for so long.

When the US invaded the Middle east, even though I was only like ten or something, I wouldn't have supported it, If I properly knew what was going on. Why should I support the annexation when Its done by anyone else. Just because people invade other countries doesn't give them the right to do it. I do hope the US stays out of this but if, sorry, WHEN. the situation worsens I will back them up 97%. Sadly the world leaders, media and many humans only care about 1st world countries. This is the first 1st world country to be annexed in a good while, so world war is 67% more likely. Just remember, this is how it started 75 years ago
Going into the middle east was a terrible mistake. We should have learbed from the russians when they invaded afghanistan during the cold war and had to back out after a decade of pointless fighting. Instead we went in there again and made the same mistakes. If we wanted to go after the real guys behind 9/11 (and this is just conjecture on my part based on circumstantial evidence) we should have hit saudi arabia. Bush never would have done that though because they're our "friends" and own 2% of the u.s. economy. It's true, we went into iraq and afghanistan for the wrong reasons (strategic oil resources) but we never tried to annex them. Putin is capitalizing on ukraines economic weakness to obtain a strategic advantage in the black sea. WW1 started because 1 guy (archduke ferdinand) was assassinated. WW2 started because germany started annexing places like austria. Putin has now annexed part of georgia and part of ukraine. I'm thinking Kazakhstan is next on his list. Hitting a nato or eu country would be a big mistake because then other major powers would be forced to get involved. If he does this it's madness.
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Yup, they did. And the west just has to accept and swallow the camel. When a nation is capable of achieving its geopolitical goals while noone is able to do anything significant about it, it will do it. Instead of yelling at Russia just accept that it's a big country and does what it wants to, just like the West have been doing for so long.

When the US invaded the Middle east, even though I was only like ten or something, I wouldn't have supported it, If I properly knew what was going on. Why should I support the annexation when Its done by anyone else. Just because people invade other countries doesn't give them the right to do it. I do hope the US stays out of this but if, sorry, WHEN. the situation worsens I will back them up 97%. Sadly the world leaders, media and many humans only care about 1st world countries. This is the first 1st world country to be annexed in a good while, so world war is 67% more likely. Just remember, this is how it started 75 years ago
Going into the middle east was a terrible mistake. We should have learbed from the russians when they invaded afghanistan during the cold war and had to back out after a decade of pointless fighting. Instead we went in there again and made the same mistakes. If we wanted to go after the real guys behind 9/11 (and this is just conjecture on my part based on circumstantial evidence) we should have hit saudi arabia. Bush never would have done that though because they're our "friends" and own 2% of the u.s. economy. It's true, we went into iraq and afghanistan for the wrong reasons (strategic oil resources) but we never tried to annex them. Putin is capitalizing on ukraines economic weakness to obtain a strategic advantage in the black sea. WW1 started because 1 guy (archduke ferdinand) was assassinated. WW2 started because germany started annexing places like austria. Putin has now annexed part of georgia and part of ukraine. I'm thinking Kazakhstan is next on his list. Hitting a nato or eu country would be a big mistake because then other major powers would be forced to get involved. If he does this it's madness.

 

It appears the Russians did't learn from their mistakes, you're right, picking a European country was the worst possible idea, I seriously wonder about the I.Q levels of Russian politicians... But as I said, if it leads to another cold war or WWIII then I'm backing the US. Mostly because I want a green card to go live in Alaska :P JK...JK

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Going into the middle east was a terrible mistake. We should have learbed from the russians when they invaded afghanistan during the cold war and had to back out after a decade of pointless fighting.

Well, Afghanistan does have its own ...remarkable history - the US didn't learn from us, we didn't learn from the British (colonial times) and they didn't learn from ancient Macedonia. I'd bet my money that's not the end of occupation for Afghanistan.

 

As for the rest, Putin didn't annex either Abchasia or Osetia, just made them into Kosovo-like "independent" states. Guess it was a trial before the Crimean annexation... Kazakhstan is balancing between Russia and the West, although we seem to be allied in the security treaty and customs union, so they might get thrown "they're Russia already" bin.

 

Moldova, on the other hand, is well and truly *****, as their economic situation is even worse than that of Ukraine. It's sufficient to say: Transdniestria...

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The only thing he disallows is a homosexual propaganda to kids in schools and gay marriage. 

 

What the fuck is homosexual propaganda?

 

 

Talking about being homosexual.

 

It's worth noting, hate crime towards lesbian and gay people is increasing in russia, as are reported attacks.

 

gay male teens were kidnapped, tortured and had the videos sent to their parents, classmates and family

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  • 2 weeks later...

I know the threat has probably lived it's life (I couldn't keep talking here because of my previous mistake with the picture).

 

I can't find the english translated version of it (only Russian one) but I would like you people to take a look at this video.

 

 

Gregor Gysi gives a FAIR insight on what's happening between Ukraine, Russia, EU and US without the bias into any direction. (in german). If someone can find a video with atleast english subtitles, It'd be much appreciated.

 

 

EDIT : Here's the video with english subtitles. You might want to pause at times, because captions tend to jump really quick between sentences.

 

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The crisis is far from over. U.s. Government just pulled it's two tank divisions out of europe. Russia is still poised to invade eastern ukraine. Sanctions talk is ongoing. Putin could be encouraged to move on other places simply because he is so far away the u.s. And nato could do very little about it. Russia is about 10-20 uears from economic collapse under current circumstances. I still feel war is inevitable.

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The funny thing that I saw was that 2 weeks ago, Obama was on TV and "boasting" about how NATO soldiers and war machines will "crush" the Russians. Has he ever studied history? "Who ever doesn't look into the past is bound to repeat it". He is underestimating his enemy and this may be another Vietnam.

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I mean, fair enough, the peninsula was Russian until 1946: it's always been a strategic point and Russia is a lot more qualified to intervene

 

Just to clarify, Хрущев (Khrushchev) gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954.

 

As I said, I didnt research anything I wrote. I also found out that there are neo-fascist elements amongst those who seized power in Kiev so calling them Nazis isn't as ridiculous as I thought it was. Still, its all a bit of a mess, eh?

 

 

Maybe next time It would be a bit smarter to research the topic throughout before jumping in the conversation with a long post and start throwing accusations :P

 

People in Crimea aren't afraid of "their families getting shot and buried over freedom of speech and democracy". They were the ones to call Russia for help, frightened by things that happen over in Kiev. People there were going from house to house, causing mess and brutally torturing/killing people that were a part of a police defense group, "Berkut", defending Yanukovitch and attempting to keep the damn peace. I don't protect or in any way try to justify what Yanukovitch did - but Berkut did not deserve getting themselves burnt to death or killed by a bunch of neo-nazis who killed people left and right, opposition or police. 

 

I've seen various pictures on the internet (I do research my stuff before saying it :P) And people there are hugging the Russian army, taking pictures with it, NOBODY is conquering anyone's land. Ukrainian and Russian people have had a "brotherhood" relationship with each other for a long time, if there's ever a reason for armed forces in Crimea, it's because people in it asked for the help.

 

You do know that your government has even more propaganda that almost any other (beside N.Korea) in their news, There were more votes than people, it was rigged. Your government controls all news stations. Of coarse what you are going to hear is the people hugged the Russian soldiers! I don't mean to offend you if you or  a family member or friend is in the millitary but what I saw was  a small Muslim community being striped of their human decency. I saw a civilian shouting at Russian soldiers as the Ukrainian ones were forced to carry there belongings out of a Ukrainian base. The last time a European country got annexed (poland) it turned out bad. (WWII) If Ukraine was apart of the European Union like the majority of its citizens are trying to do as soon as the Russian military first stood on Ukrainian soil half of Europe's military would have had to defend Crimea with guns, ships, planes, tanks you name it. Thats the benefit of being an EU country, you have like 20 something militarys  behind your back.

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If this is really true, it's insane how different the east/west perspectives on it is. In western media Crimea has been invaded by Russia. According to the press and several quoted western experts Crimera is lost to Russia and Ukraine will never get it back. Putin wants Crimera because he and all Russians believe that if people speak Russian, then it's Russian territory. Indeed some western politician compares Putins rethoric with Hitlers, when Hitler started condemning Jews as Putin condemns homosexuals.

 

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russkie_v_krymu.jpg?itok=TOOLHIJS

 

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Damn, look at those Russian invaders, they must be really evil to conquer and "rip off" Crimea from citizen's hands, probably also executing them and burying them into the ground if they ever speak about freedom of speech or democracy.

 

 

EDIT : Putin has stated this many times before that he does not "condemn" homosexuals in any way : They can easily work there, they don't get any additional taxes for living in Russia, they can live the same life as any other individual. The only thing he disallows is a homosexual propaganda to kids in schools and gay marriage. 

 

i DIDNT MEAN TO LIKE THAT POST

 

also, have you seen the video where that  gay teen was beaten by a group, or the fact that gay teens have been abducted, tortured and have had that all filmed and sent to their parents and classmates. Putin is like a parent who tells his kids one thing but does the other. I'm gay, how am I spreading propaganda by speaking good of gay people. Your country is turning into the love child of N.Korea and Nazi Germany

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Damn, look at those Russian invaders, they must be really evil to conquer and "rip off" Crimea from citizen's hands, probably also executing them and burying them into the ground if they ever speak about freedom of speech or democracy.

 

Might sound cynical, but I wouldn't put it past our government to have had these photos prepared long before the events.

 

Russia I know nothing about. It's a huge country, many people. Yet it is as if nothing ever really happens there.

 

I would say that the Iron Curtain has never been raised from my country, well, maybe ever so slightly, thanks to the internet. Even so, the government does have extremely strong information control - virtually anything can (and usually will) be covered up without a trace. On the other hand, some events are blown way out of proportion by the propaganda.

 

To exemplify, after the tragic crash of the Polish presidential plane, a movement appeared, claiming that it was Russia who shot down / bombed / etc. the plane. Last month, a member of that political movement made an ...odd statement about how the crash site should be secured by the Polish military. That got virtually no media coverage in Poland, but we had a week-long news blitz on how bad our western neighbours are... Most people know it's rubbish, but if something is repeated constantly, eventually it will have some impact.

 

 

See it's people like you that foreigners should think of when they hear the word Russian, intelligent and able to question what they are told, like so many Russians. It's a pity that the media only focus on the backward assholes and never interview the normal russians. My thoughts go out to you in this dark period of generalization of russians  

 

 

 

The only thing he disallows is a homosexual propaganda to kids in schools and gay marriage. 

 

What the fuck is homosexual propaganda?

 

 

Talking about being homosexual.

 

It's worth noting, hate crime towards lesbian and gay people is increasing in russia, as are reported attacks.

 

 

Homophobic crimes exist in every country, unfortunately. As far as I heard (Never really checked for proof though) - in India you may get arrested for being homosexual. Why is nobody making a big fuzz about it aswell? Or is it worth only marking Russian government as evil in western ideology?

 

the last gay discrimination I heard of in Ireland was 4 years ago when someone was refused a chicken tikka roll in spar, lol :) It's funny cuz it was over a roll. (the guy that refused them was fired and fined for discrimination charges)

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Russia is going to take all of eastern ukraine and the west is going to play chamberlain and let it slide. Nato won't do a damn thing because they're too afraid of what a war with russia would lead to. How far will we let putin go before figuring shit out. I don't like comparing russia to nazi germany. Russia isn't evil. But tactically they're doing the same shit hitler did annexing austria and poland. How long before the russian equivalent of the blitzkrieg happens and wakes everyone up. The only thing stopping that is putin is smarter than hitler. He'll keep annexing bits and pieces of neighboring countries with majority russian speaking populations and the west won't do anything. Unless putin makes a mistake and overreaches himself.

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i DIDNT MEAN TO LIKE THAT POST

 

 

also, have you seen the video where that  gay teen was beaten by a group, or the fact that gay teens have been abducted, tortured and have had that all filmed and sent to their parents and classmates. Putin is like a parent who tells his kids one thing but does the other. I'm gay, how am I spreading propaganda by speaking good of gay people. Your country is turning into the love child of N.Korea and Nazi Germany

 

 

You people are having it all wrong.

 

By "Homosexual propaganda" I meant stuff like parades, teaching homosexual intercourse in school, and other stuff like this. You can speak whatever the hell you want in here. Russia is a country in which being homosexual was considered a "mental disease" for a LONG time. Plus, anyone who calls someone "gay" in Russia nowadays mean those "overly girlish" guys who go out of their way to annoy people with their manner of speaking. As long as you keep your sexuality to yourself (You don't see straight men going out and yelling that they like doing it in vagina), you should be just fine in Russia.

 

"Crimes against homosexual" are there, I get it, but why don't you think about thousands of other crimes that happen there? Why do you focus on only 1 thing? Why don't you talk about crimes in other countries? Because I'm sure other countries also have those, not just Russia. Is it because West goes out of it's way to make you think of Russia as evil, bad country? Homosexuals are a minority in Russia, we get it, we also get that you feel offended that Russia is not allowed to teach their children about homosexual intercourse. If anything, homophobic people here are fault of their parents being homophobic. 

 

 

 

EDIT :

 

Russia is going to take all of eastern ukraine and the west is going to play chamberlain and let it slide. Nato won't do a damn thing because they're too afraid of what a war with russia would lead to. How far will we let putin go before figuring shit out. I don't like comparing russia to nazi germany. Russia isn't evil. But tactically they're doing the same shit hitler did annexing austria and poland. How long before the russian equivalent of the blitzkrieg happens and wakes everyone up. The only thing stopping that is putin is smarter than hitler. He'll keep annexing bits and pieces of neighboring countries with majority russian speaking populations and the west won't do anything. Unless putin makes a mistake and overreaches himself.

 

That's a very one-sided way of looking at things... Have anyone ever thought that for the past 14 years (ever since Putin came into power) Russia was NOT the aggressor in any of the conflict that has happened since? To quote an article from globalresearch.ca :

 

"Since President Vladimir Putin came to power in 2000, apart from the most recent crisis in Ukraine (which I will address shortly), Russia has been involved in just two major conflicts: The Chechen War between 1999 and 2009 and the so-called Five Day War with Georgia in 2008. In both of these events, it can be argued with some certainty that Russia did not instigate the conflict, and was in fact acting defensively."

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-or-america-who-is-the-real-aggressor/5372882

 

It is easy to judge Russia because both EU and US media works out of their way to make you fear us, but wouldn't it be fair to fear AN ACTUAL problem?

 

Why do EU and America say nothing when Kosovo declares the independence and allow it, while when the same thing happens in Crimean, suddenly it's illegitimate and against the constitution of Ukraine? Why is it legal for country to overthrow the president Yanukovitch with 73% of votes when it clearly states in Ukraine's constitution that you need 75% (!) for it to be legitimate? Why do they call for constitution in one case, while dismissing it in the other case?

 

Why does Obama lie in Brussel about Kosovo having a legitimate referendum associated and confirmed with NATO when Kosovo had no referendum?

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/03/27/Obama-wrong-on-Kosovo-in-speech-to-Europe

 

Why do we have to be the bad guys as soon as Russia does something that is outside of EU/US's interests?

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There are no bad guys or good guys in this sort of conflict. It's a messy, unclear situation. Your average russian is a great guy. Hell, some of my ancestors were russian, so I even share their blood. But Putin scares the crap out of me. He's not doing what he does for the average russian. In the long run lots of regular people are going to suffer if this continues. I don't know anything about kosovo, I'll go look that up later. But the reason the west feels that the crimean referendum is illegitimate is because there were plenty of russian troops around to insure the vote went a certain way and there were no international observers there to make sure the election was free and fair.

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The Chechen War between 1999 and 2009 and the so-called Five Day War with Georgia in 2008. In both of these events, it can be argued with some certainty that Russia did not instigate the conflict, and was in fact acting defensively."

The second war in Chechnya started because a terrorist unit, involving some Chechens,radied Dagestan. This was an uprising, which could have been dealt with without collateral damage. Nevertheless, this was an excellent excuse to "suppress" Chechnya once again, particularly in light of the then-recent bombings.Furthermore, it took only several months of fighting in Chechnya for Maskhadow (Chechen president at the time) to offer his full cooperation in dealing with the terrorists and (AFAIR) two weeks more to offer unconditional surrender. We didn't accept that and the army pushed south, using quite a bit of artillery and air support. Enough so that almost half of the citizens of Chechnya fled to other republics or through the border...

 

After less than a year we took Grozny and the federal institutions were reenacted. Alongside concentration camps (sorry, "filtration camps" - a perfect copy of the ones set up during the first war and another horrid progeny of ГУЛаг) for those of an "unsuitable mindset towards the Federation". That was so defensive, that it started a guerilla war which consumed the next ten years and nobody knows how many people...

 

As for Georgia, the government did not instigate the war via military action but through political means. To exemplify: If Finland suddenly decided to annect Piter along iwth the whole region, what would our answer be ? What would the US do if Mexico suddenly took Texas ?

 

IMHO, the mechanism Putin hoped for in the case of Crimea was exactly the same as in Georgia - spur the Ukrainians to attack us, crush their army and "take necessary countermeasures against the aggressor". Summarising this part: Putin is no angel or peaceful defender of the country, but an extremely efficient, cynical leader who is capable of doing incredibly scary stuff if only it benefits his agenda. In light of these things, it really doesn't come as a surprise that, as a nation we are hated by most of the world, does it ?

 

A comparison of Kosovo and Crimea ? Sure, the two seem similar at first glance, but when you consider them for a moment:

  • Kosovo got independence, Crimea was annexed by Russia,
  • Russia did guarantee the territorial integrity of Ukraine (in return for them passing their nuclear arsenal over to us) and no such guarantee was made for Serbia,
  • Kosovo was a region contested at some point by seven (!) different fractions, while Crimea was bestowed upon Ukraine as a gift,
  • The former Yugoslavia was the area of some of the most vicious ethnic cleansings in recent history, while nobody envisioned such a future in Ukraine,
  • Serbia was in a state of war with its neighbours as well as consumed by a civil war, Ukraine had a political revolt, without any direct military action (even though the situation in Kiev could have easily evolved into a military intervention),
  • Serbia had virtually no foreign policy (apart from "US, can you stop bombing us ?"), while Ukraine was trying to "westernise" (something that our government didn't like at all, especially in light of Poland becoming a successful nation).

 

So, is the comparison really justified ?

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[...]

 

It is easy to judge Russia because both EU and US media works out of their way to make you fear us, but wouldn't it be fair to fear AN ACTUAL problem?

 

[...]

 

 

as a member of humanity, i judge russia. i don't fear russia or it's citizens, but i judge them for their lack of interest on global peace and solidarity.

 

it's not easy for me to explain my point of view - it's like what you all learned from your parents - don't take stuff you don't own, even not when it looks like nobody owns it. the fact, that you did not see you neighbour for a month, is no reason to step into his yard and take what you want.

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Also, even as a U.S. citizen I also judge the u.s. I've stated before on this topic that i don't agree with at least half of american foreign policy since ww2. We've done a lot of terrible shit over the years. So I understand that, as a country, we're not in a position to morally judge others actions. But as a citizen that has, realistically, very little control over foreign policy, i feel thatas an individual I can morally judge the actions of political leaders.

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don't take stuff you don't own.

1) Crimea was a part of Russia, but in 1954 was gifted by Khrushchev to Ukraine. So, it's now many people in Crimea, who was burn in Russia (before 1954), but live in Ukraine (1954-2014). And in 1954 nobody asked russian people of Crimea, whether they want to be gifted.

2) From 1991 to 2014 Crimea was autonomous republic of Ukraine. Not ordinary region. They even had an own constitution.

3) Crimea citizens declare independence.

4) Crimea citizens make referendum.

5) and only after this Russia agree to include Crimea to Russian Federation.

Russia didn't take anything. It was mutual consent between two independent countries.

But the reason the west feels that the crimean referendum is illegitimate is because there were plenty of russian troops around to insure the vote went a certain way and there were no international observers there to make sure the election was free and fair.

1) If it were plenty of Russian troops, why nobody protested against them and didn't revolt like in Kiev?

2) Crimea invited the international observers - nobody arrived. Why?

3) Why now there is no protests against Russia in Crimea? It's not easy to close mouth with rifles to 2 million people (population of Crimea).

Russia isn't evil. But tactically they're doing the same shit hitler did annexing austria and poland

..and same "shit" did France in... 2009 (!) with Mayotte islands. Where were United Nations and European Union in 2009? Why nobody compares Sarkozy to Hitler?
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(Sorry can't quote with my mobile)

1-1

When i gift you something, it's ok for you when i take it back because it looks like you don't need it.

2-1

As our media reports, they do. Many dead ppl last weekend. Ukraine army fights agains pro russian forces.

2-2

As our media reports, pro russian forces do not let them in. Also covered russian speaking ppl shooted at reporters.

Also our media reports about fake observers from russia to control the elections.

And yes, sarkozy is also a bad ass.

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Cdr. Keen,

 

Not to sound cynical, but I'd really like to advice you to start checking the matter a little further than just from "your media". I am not sure where you are from, but it's certainly easy to assume that the "facts" that you get from your "media" is nothing but a good trick to let people into believing what your media wants you to believe in.

 

In my case, when backing up my point, I posted links to AMERICAN articles. Not even the "Russian-American" ones, so you people don't have the ability to say "oh, this one is controlled by Kremlin, because it is originated in Russia, so it's a lie", like many people say about "RT" on youtube.

 

1-1: If a gift had a mindset of it's own (let's say a dog) I wouldn't be surprised if it escaped and ran to it's old owner when the one it was gifted to turned into psychopath that had the opportunity to molest and brutally murder the dog.

 

2-1: Yet not a single person dead over it, beside 1 wounded soldier in Russian army and 1 in Ukrainian, when the same "unknown" snipers tried to stir and provoke the conflict.

 

2-2: As I said again, not a SINGLE PERSON was reported SHOT or DEAD over the course of Crimea doing referendum to gain independence. I would like you to link me to atleast one of the websites that report that. I might be wrong.

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1-1

When i gift you something, it's ok for you when i take it back because it looks like you don't need it.

When you gift people with their homes, it's not ok. It's slavery.

2-1

As our media reports, they do. Many dead ppl last weekend. Ukraine army fights agains pro russian forces.

As our media reports about last weekends: two dead. One from Kiev-side (special military group Alfa), and one from civil people - fisherman which wear military like uniform (it's popular in winter fishing in Russia to wear military like uniform for example). Some injured.

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German Media

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-tote-bei-kaempfen-in-slawjansk-bei-donezk-a-964157.html

Awakov Facebook page

https://m.facebook.com/arsen.avakov.1/posts/620052841418159?stream_ref=10

Today they say, east ukraine citizens fear a war. Next Weekend, there will be a civil election - now, 70% of the Ukraine ppl want to keep crimea.

(Sorry for sloppy text, i'm on my mobile)

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