combat DDD - Dual Wielding, Defending and Dodging

[GG Cannon]

 

Dual Wielding

 

This one is short, simple, easy to implement and to understand.

Press Middle Mouse Button (MMB) while holding Aim/Battle Stance (L. Ctrl/RMB) to attack with your secondary weapon.
This would allow you to equip one gun in each hand or one melee weapon in each hand and strike with each individually.
It would also allow you have one gun in your primary and a melee weapon in your secondary and use both as needed.
Or even hold a gun in your primary and throw a pipe bomb or a molotov with your secondary.

The gun on your secondary hand should have lower accuracy and melee weapons on secondary should have a slower swing speed and damage.

Also, two new traits.

Lefty - You are left handed (Cost 0 , just changes which hand your character equips items as primary and secondary and mirror attack animations horizontally)

Ambidextrous - You are able to use both hands equally (Cost 4 , removes the penalty for attacking with a secondary weapon)

 

Defending

 

Pressing Z while holding a melee weapon as primary or secondary and holding Aim/Battle Stance (L. Ctrl/RMB) should defend against a melee strike.
The chance to defend against a melee attack should be equal to:

• 50% + ( [Nimble+1] * 9% ) / 2
  So at Nimble 0 you have 54.5% chance to block an attack and at nimble 10 you have 99.5% chance to block an attack.

-Successfully blocking an attack should tire you based on the difference of strength between you and the attacker and with a chance to cause "minor damage" if the difference in strength is too big with you being the weaker party.

-Failing to block should have a small chance of dropping your equipped weapons to the ground depending on the difference of strength between you and the attacker and how tired you are.
 

Trying to defend a melee attack should give you some nimble XP and succeeding to defend should give a small extra nimble XP.
It should also give some Strength XP when succeeding to block.

This would be very useful in Multiplayer PVP combat, against NPCs and against possible zombies wielding melee weapons.

 

Dodging

 

Pressing C while holding Aim/Battle Stance (L. Ctrl/RMB) should do a standing dodge against incoming melee attacks.
The chance to dodge a melee attack should be equal to:

• ( Nimble + 1 ) * 9%
  So at Nimble 0 you have 9% chance to dodge and at Nimble 10 you have 99% chance to dodge a melee attack.

Trying to dodge a melee attack should give you some Nimble XP and succeeding to dodge should give a small extra nimble XP.
It should also give some Fitness XP just by trying to dodge.

If you are holding any WASD key and Shift while dodging, that dodge should be converted to a short dash dodge.
If you have small fit skill values or are exhausted, that short dash dodge should have a chance to trip you to the ground.
Dash dodging backwards should have a higher chance to trip than dash dodging sideways or forward.
Higher "Nimble" skill values should reduce the chance to trip when doing the dash dodge while tired and increase the distance covered by and the speed of the dash dodge action.

Dash dodging should tire you a bit and give you some Nimble XP and Fitness XP.

It would extremely useful for keeping your distance from a group of zombies, against NPC enemies, in PVP and even other possible future zombie variants added.
 

Conclusion

 

Percentage Chance Values

Nimble	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Defend	54,5%	59%	63,5%	68%	72,5%	77%	81,5%	86%	90,5%	95%	99,5%
Dodge	9%	18%	27%	36%	45%	54%	63%	72%	81%	90%	99%

 

• Is it somewhat realistic?
  Yes. These are basic fighting techniques and even extremely needed for PVP and NPC combat.
   

• Does it fit with the spirit of PZ?
  Yes, both the actions and commands suggested are within the style of combat of the game and already considering the current game key mapping, what keys are not being used or what keys are being used but don't have a function while in combat stance and what they do out of combat stance.
   

• Would it make the game too easy?
  No. It would provide an option of actions during combat, but on the other hand, it also creates new possibilities to trip and fall to the ground or to get tired, so it doesn't make it easy nor hard, but just creates new possibilities.
   

• Would it require rewriting the entire game (like changing the camera view, for instance)
  Not really. It would require writing and adding in the new actions, traits and creating the new animation, but not really fully rewriting anything.
   

• Would it add enough to the gameplay that it would be worth taking the time to add?
  Definitely. Not only is it needed for fighting melee with enemy NPCs and in current multiplayer PVP, it would create new possibilities on how to deal with the already existing zombies and the threat of tripping at the wrong moment. It would also severely raise the value of the Nimble skill and increase the number of sources of Nimble XP and "training methods" for it.

Edited October 23, 2022 by GG Cannon

[GG Cannon]

Re-reading my post, when I mention the "dash dodge", some might think I'm mentioning something like an arcade-ish dash, so I wanted to remove any ambiguity or misunderstanding from what I mentioned.

I meant "short dash dodge" as in the real life martial arts quick step dodging, it can be a side step, back-step or front step, but it consists of a very short and quick "jump" where you don't really get off the ground and just slide in a direction while keeping your stance.

Here is a video of Taekwon-Do talking exactly about this sort of technique and a visual reference in case the devs actually feel interested in how it actually looks and works in real life.
 

In 0:31 and 0:40 you can see 2 examples of a back step dodge and the whole video is about the side step dodge. The front step is the exact same as the back-step, just forward, where you do a tiny jump forward without getting out of the ground.

This technique is instinctive even in street fighting and every martial arts has at least one version of these in their footwork.

Since I made a follow up post recently where I mentioned punching & kicking with simple realistic combos that you find in almost any martial arts and in untrained street fighting, I wanted to clarify this as with both this post and those simple punching and kicking, the combat potential in the game would increase by a lot and a step dash-dodge like this is a very real and common fighting technique that would be needed for fighting with players and NPCs to have proper freedom and realism.

In PVP and in fights against the future NPCs, if there are enemy NPCs as planned, it would be possible to develop your own strategy of when to defend, when to dodge, when to attack and when to side step or back step, becoming not only more fluid, but realistic.

Also, with all of these combined, the extended unarmed combat and all the defense and dodging mentioned in this post, one HUGE thing becomes possible, which is why I mentioned street fighting so much in this comment...

 

THE FIGHTING PITS

 

This is related to the NPCs update and something I mentioned in one of my first posts here on the forum talking about NPCs where there should be a possibility, even if small and taking some luck, that you might join a evil NPCs group or that your group becomes evil later down the line due to events and interactions.

The possibility of fighting barehanded and having defense and dodge, but with the possibility of failing those depending on your skill levels brings the possibility of fighting being one of the stress relievers on a base of a post-apocalyptic zombie world.
 

 

 

This would not only serve to relieve boredom of those that watch, but also serve as Nimble, Fitness and Strength training as a game mechanic.
It is realistic, it fits in the scenario but it requires proper unarmed fighting mechanics, besides the already present shoving mechanic which also is one of the prerequisites as it is a proper, useful and valid fighting technique.

As a leader of your own group, it could even be one of the possible moral decisions to come in the game or even be related to establishing a training policy on your base.

 

And remember...

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by GG Cannon

[duh7]

So i like idea but there is some "buts".

Devs dont have visual animation for atacking from sec hand that why this is nopit implemented. Animation take time and there are more important things to do.

 

Sidestep (back step, dash, etc) dont have animation to and oike u said a martial artist use it not a farmer from last house down Street. So a new trait need to be implemented with occupation and animation but we are w8ing rn for rework of those. It shuld exhaustion u faster with a change to fatigue on next Day.

 

99% for dogging melee? And what more meaby bullets to? Even 50% is to much. 

Nah this is not going to work. Now melee bulids have hard time to get close to shooter and after that they will only get worst. So is not Worth it with thise numbers. 

With nimble 10 it shuld give a max 33% chances.

3% lvl 0 and extra 3% for every lvl

Devs could give items that will modify amount. 

 

Fight pits is nice interaction with npc u can put some behavior like sure after loosing 70% health or when angered fight untill knock out etc. Like that but moders probably will take it from here as devs are busy with other stuff.

 

 

[GG Cannon]

2 hours ago, duh7 said:

99% for dogging melee? And what more meaby bullets to? Even 50% is to much. 

Nah this is not going to work. Now melee bulids have hard time to get close to shooter and after that they will only get worst. So is not Worth it with thise numbers. 

With nimble 10 it shuld give a max 33% chances.

3% lvl 0 and extra 3% for every lvl

Devs could give items that will modify amount. 

I can see why you'd think 99% at Nimble 10 would be a bit much, but still I feel like 33% is too little, even if some items would increase it.
Maybe 5% per level? So it would be like:

Nimble	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Dodge	5%	10%	15%	20%	25%	30%	35%	40%	45%	50%	55%

I still feel like this is too little though...
I understand your comment about a "farmer from last house street" not being able to dodge like that, but the 99% would only be at Nimble 10, and if I understood things correctly, any skill at level 10 is the apex of human potential for that skill, so Nimble 10 would be the absolute most Nimble a human can be.

By the way, this dodge would be exclusively to Melee strikes, not to ranged weapons.

I've practiced Martial Arts in the past and I know that some well trained professional can dodge almost 100% of the attacks of any untrained person.

Having said that, how about this new calculation instead:

Dodge% = [ 9 * ( Self.Nimble + 1 ) ] - [ 5 * ( Attacker.Nimble) ]

This means that the higher your Nimble, the more chance you have to dodge, but the higher your attacker's nimble, the more chance they have to still hit you.
Both attacker and defender values would be being taken into consideration.

 

If the person trying to hit you has Nimble 0, it would keep the table I sent before:

Nimble	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Dodge	9%	18%	27%	36%	45%	54%	63%	72%	81%	90%	99%

BUT the Nimble value of the person attacking you would reduce that chance to dodge by:

Nimble	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Anti-Dodge	0%	5%	10%	15%	20%	25%	30%	35%	40%	45%	50%

Examples:
You = Nimble 10  ||  Attacker = Nimble 0
Result = 99% chance to dodge

You = Nimble 5 || Attacker = Nimble 1
Result = 49% chance to dodge

You = Nimble 5 || Attacker = Nimble 5
Result = 29%

Full list of results for all values:

 

Nimble	Self	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Attacker
0		9%	18%	27%	36%	45%	54%	63%	72%	81%	90%	99%
1		4%	13%	22%	31%	40%	49%	58%	67%	76%	85%	94%
2		0%	8%	17%	26%	35%	44%	53%	62%	71%	80%	89%
3		0%	3%	12%	21%	30%	39%	48%	57%	66%	75%	84%
4		0%	0%	7%	16%	25%	34%	43%	52%	61%	70%	79%
5		0%	0%	2%	11%	20%	29%	38%	47%	56%	65%	74%
6		0%	0%	0%	6%	15%	24%	33%	42%	51%	60%	69%
7		0%	0%	0%	1%	10%	19%	28%	37%	46%	55%	64%
8		0%	0%	0%	0%	5%	14%	23%	32%	41%	50%	59%
9		0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	9%	18%	27%	36%	45%	54%
10		0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	4%	13%	22%	31%	40%	49%

If any items or moodles would increase the value above 100%, it stays at 100%

If any items or moodles would reduce the value below 0%, it stays at 0%.

It's more balanced like this, right?

If both people are absolutely untrained (Nimble 0), there is still a tiny chance to dodge (9%)
If one person is a professional and the other is untrained (attacker Nimble 0), the chance of dodging is high.
If the attacker is trained and the one trying to dodge isn't (defender Nimble 0) the chance of dodging is 0%.
If both are trained (both have nimble higher than 0) then the chance of dodging is based on their nimble values.

Another possible formula for dodge %chance and the full result table to consider that I think might be interesting is:

(Self.Nimble * 10) - (Attack.Nimble * 5)
 

Nimble	Self	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Attacker
0		0%	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%	70%	80%	90%	100%
1		0%	5%	15%	25%	35%	45%	55%	65%	75%	85%	95%
2		0%	0%	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%	70%	80%	90%
3		0%	0%	5%	15%	25%	35%	45%	55%	65%	75%	85%
4		0%	0%	0%	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%	70%	80%
5		0%	0%	0%	5%	15%	25%	35%	45%	55%	65%	75%
6		0%	0%	0%	0%	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%	70%
7		0%	0%	0%	0%	5%	15%	25%	35%	45%	55%	65%
8		0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%
9		0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	5%	15%	25%	35%	45%	55%
10		0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	0%	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%

Same as the previous one, it is fair to both sides, it favors the party trying to dodge a little (it is easier to dodge than to hit someone trying to dodge who knows how to dodge) but unlike the previous one, the untrained (nimble 0) person has 0%  chance to dodge from the beginning while the fully trained person has 100% chance to dodge.

Edited October 29, 2022 by GG Cannon

[GG Cannon]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:42 AM, GG Cannon said:

 

Defending

 

Pressing Z while holding a melee weapon as primary or secondary and holding Aim/Battle Stance (L. Ctrl/RMB) should defend against a melee strike.
The chance to defend against a melee attack should be equal to:

• 50% + ( [Nimble+1] * 9% ) / 2
  So at Nimble 0 you have 54.5% chance to block an attack and at nimble 10 you have 99.5% chance to block an attack.

-Successfully blocking an attack should tire you based on the difference of strength between you and the attacker and with a chance to cause "minor damage" if the difference in strength is too big with you being the weaker party.

-Failing to block should have a small chance of dropping your equipped weapons to the ground depending on the difference of strength between you and the attacker and how tired you are.
 

Trying to defend a melee attack should give you some nimble XP and succeeding to defend should give a small extra nimble XP.
It should also give some Strength XP when succeeding to block.

One detail I forgot to mention about defending that I think is important is that, if you are unarmed, you should always take a percentage of the damage even in a successful block where your strength is far higher than the attacker, while with an equipped weapon even if you are just slightly weaker, you should be able to properly block it most of the time, and that is just for blunt weapons with the damage being concentrated on your arms.

Even if you are the strongest human alive, trying to block someone hitting you with a baseball bat or metal pipe with just your arms will still hurt.
If they are bladed weapons, you will receive 100% of the cutting damage on your arms, so blocking a bladed attack while unarmed is the same as sacrificing your arms for that attack.

This means that in a fist fight, you blocking your enemy's attacks will still hurt your arms a little due to their punches (unless there is something like a "Martial Artist" trait that makes it possible to fully block punch attacks while unarmed), while if someone strikes you with a bat and you block it with your arms, there is still a pretty good chance of it breaking your arm.

There should never be a perfect 100% blocked damage unless you have a weapon (or shield, maybe) equipped in your hands.