The Safety System

[Batsphinx]

I think that the more we, as developers, learn by experimenting with systems like this - the more we'll be able to transpose over to our NPC work too.

[Spaniard]

 

Eh, I don't know how I feel about this new implementation. My problem with it: that it will take away a lot of the tension when you meet a new group or player. If they don't have the skull tag floating over their head, you would relax, but that isn't very realistic. Lemmy's explanation also doesn't really sync up with how two strangers meeting in the middle of the zombie apocalypse would typically act. 

 

For instance, if my group encountered another group, we would probably reach for our weapons and glance around nervously, even if we weren't a murderous bunch. Being wary and aggressive are being lumped together with this new system which is kind of my qualm about it (also, it's a bit gamey).

 

It's optional. You can play on a server without if you want. First and foremost is the desire to provide people who don't want shoot on sight but don't want to forbid PvP completely with tools to balance PvP slightly in favour of those defending. We're not making an alternate reality, we're making a game and need to balance it as such. I see your point however, and if most people play with it off then fair enough. We just don't want to get into the situation where people are 'no point in playing Zomboid, it's just shoot on sight', as well as provide a way of avoiding hacking your friend's neck with a axe whenever you try and help them.

 

re: and you would relax? Would you? They are 1 second away from being able to unload a shotgun in you. The skull is just a way of compensating for the fact we have tiny little sprites with no expression or way of telling someone's about to fire until they right click, left click and you're dead. You wouldn't necessarily trust them, would keep your eye on them, and if they suddenly made a move to attack without you're attention being diverted you'd have an opportunity to defend yourself.

 

If you've seen Walking Dead, think of the scene in the bar in season 2 with those two guys.

 

They went in with their safeties on. Was everyone relaxed? They were being 'friendly' but it was clear they weren't to be trusted, but that wasn't enough for Rick to shoot them down where they stand. Conversation continued, and then suddenly their safeties came off, and Rick was able to react quick enough to shoot them both dead.

 

In PZ MP as it stands, Rick would have been a goner, because there would be literally no way for him to notice their sudden immediate intent to kill him. The only defence he would have would be to shoot first, just in case. Shoot on sight mentality.

 

That's how to think of this feature in terms of 'realism'. If we had massively detailed 3D models you could see in close up 1080p maybe we could convey it in more real terms, but the graphics don't allow for that.

 

The safety affords you the ability to vigilantly 'wait and see' instead of shooting first 'just in case they are hostile'.

 

remember: Default (even though it may not be now, I don't know) is co-op. Isn't being completely unable to attack other people at all 'gamey' and lacking in tension, or not very realistic? Is that a reason to dislike its implementation in the game / wish it not to exist?

 

As RJ says, we'll be implementing a party system once NPCs are back in full dev swing, which will give further options to people for their servers. Whole point of Zomboid's MP (as well as SP sandbox) is to provide everyone with the options of how they want to play the game.

 

 

Cool, cool, and now that I think about it more it does make sense. It's not that I feel you all should create an altered reality. Indeed, it's about making a fun game. And for me, part of what makes this game so much fun, is how visceral it feels. The realism balances well with the fun.

 

That being said sorry, I should have read the OP more carefully, but to be fair it's been a long day(week) of work (just four more hours left, though i have to come in tomorrow morning)! I thought that you were safe from PvP as long as you had Safety ON, but upon closer reading, I realize now that you are still vulnerable to someone that has the Safety Off.

[RobertJohnson]

Ahah, don't be sorry mate, if I post this here is also to talk about it, to improve it, etc.

 

It's fun tho, French people said the same things

[GothicGhost]

I do think a second is too low to know if the person going to kill you.

 

What if you have lag or something ? maybe 2-3 seconds ?

[MonkeyDrone]

I like the idea of the whole new system. It is definitely a plus point for people running in groups and it makes you wary of 'shoot on sight mental patients' running around the world.

 

And I have to agree with lemmy about the penalty factor. You hit someone, you can't go into safety for a while, which is a really really great idea. Friendly fire has definitely been an issue while running around with a group, i've had my head hurt and down in Half hp with 1 hit because friendlies didn't compensate for range.

 

My server will definitely not be pure pvp after this coming into the game.

 

Hopefully we all can provide great feedback for you guys 'whenever' the update comes out

[RobertJohnson]

I do think a second is too low to know if the person going to kill you.

 

What if you have lag or something ? maybe 2-3 seconds ?

 

I wrote in the post that it's configurable by an admin of the server

[Raekluder]

Deleted

[Magusdl]

Awesome, I planned on playing on PvE servers only because i'm really fed up with the "shoot on sight" mentality that ruined all survival MMO's, now this update makes PvP servers more interesting. Great thinking guys, I like the direction your heading here.

[Hatsune Miku]

Yeah tho 300 might be a bit harsh if its seconds

 

Perhaps it should be quite harsh.

This'll give you reason to add something like an 'Observant' personality trait that lets players use this system. The killers themselves can then also have something like a 'calm and collected' trait that would halve the timer, or make the skull icon only appear after ~30 seconds of entering another player's vicinity who has the observant trait.

[Xydonus]

Loving the system, does make the pvp mechanic all the more flexible which is a good thing. It may indeed also have the knock-on effect of reducing kill-on-sight situations.

[Aricane]

With the exception of autoaiming firearms, it is ridiculliously easy to survive hostile players. I've been chased a few times by someone with a golfclub, but I can shake them off laughingly easy everytime.

 

To be honest using the safety system to counter shoot on sight isn't making the game better. Preventing to hurt neutral or friendly player is. I'll be running with safety off most of the time.

The game must offer some kind of incentative not to kill other players. You certainly have no use of other players (except being friendly, yawn), so you might as well neutralize them as they are a potential threat. If the players could havefer you something you wouldn't be able to achieve without teaming up with them, you'll probably consider their value before attacking them.

[Blasted_Taco]

With the exception of autoaiming firearms, it is ridiculliously easy to survive hostile players. I've been chased a few times by someone with a golfclub, but I can shake them off laughingly easy everytime.

 

To be honest using the safety system to counter shoot on sight isn't making the game better. Preventing to hurt neutral or friendly player is. I'll be running with safety off most of the time.

The game must offer some kind of incentative not to kill other players. You certainly have no use of other players (except being friendly, yawn), so you might as well neutralize them as they are a potential threat. If the players could havefer you something you wouldn't be able to achieve without teaming up with them, you'll probably consider their value before attacking them.

That is the sad part with most games like DayZ.

 

The players need something to stick togheter, maybe since we are playing a character, when you are with other player you have a "moral" boost? To avoid depression or anixty? But the bad thing is that both of those moodles dont do anything yet, so maybe after they have negative effects on the player they can be counter by begin in a group?

 

Right now the zombies dosent pose much a of a threat since in MP they dont sync well, they cant grab you at all or they all are dead in the inner city.

Its a shame that i had to kill a guy who survived with me 3 nights because he went nuts cause we both were starving and i took the can of soup to open it up and he thought i was going to eat it all by my self, he rushed me with a almost broken nail baseball bat and i was left bleeding out eating alone in the market, if the system was in place i could have told his intentions and maybe stop him from doing that.

 

But that is part of the fun i guess, i will mostly play in servers with the system off.

[LeoIvanov]

With the exception of autoaiming firearms, it is ridiculliously easy to survive hostile players. I've been chased a few times by someone with a golfclub, but I can shake them off laughingly easy everytime.

 

To be honest using the safety system to counter shoot on sight isn't making the game better. Preventing to hurt neutral or friendly player is. I'll be running with safety off most of the time.

The game must offer some kind of incentative not to kill other players. You certainly have no use of other players (except being friendly, yawn), so you might as well neutralize them as they are a potential threat. If the players could havefer you something you wouldn't be able to achieve without teaming up with them, you'll probably consider ther value before attacking them.

 

Let's see if it works well when the character creation is reimplemented, so people with different perks would be a possibility.

[Viceroy]

This should perhaps be expanded into being able to join a 'party' or 'group' in-game, Not being agressive towards others in the own group but to other groups potentially. This could allow for multiple groups to encounter one another without friendly-fire issues. Expanding on this, diplomacy between groups might also be derived from this system. Where your leader says "This group is neutral, that group is hostile" naturally your body language would reflect that.

 

Little something to think about, the safety system clearly has merit and should be tinkered and experimented with as much as possible to find what plays best and fits best with the general feel of PZ.

 

2c

[RobertJohnson]

Damn, read

 

Party system will come in the future, Chris already planned it with group for NPCs etc.

 

This is a temporary solution while waiting for groups (or it may stay WITH the group too... Don't know if it's already decided or nope)

[Viceroy]

 

Damn, read

 

Party system will come in the future, Chris already planned it with group for NPCs etc.

 

This is a temporary solution while waiting for groups (or it may stay WITH the group too... Don't know if it's already decided or nope)

 

 

My apologies I meant it could be seen as an extension of that. I meant nothing negative by it, only to spur on debate/brainstorming.

[RobertJohnson]

Haha, no offense

[Viceroy]

Lol I was holding my damned breath waiting for you to comment.

 

On a seperate but also safety mechanism related note, do you guys think it should be possible to safety a weapon like a pistol or shotgun against accidental discharge. I have for some reason discharged my weapon way too soon every now and then (I swear it normally does not happen! lol)

[Flachzang]

This solution to the PvP issue sound great! Especially that a lot of it is optional and configurable. Nice!

[makkenhoff]

Lol I was holding my damned breath waiting for you to comment.

 

On a seperate but also safety mechanism related note, do you guys think it should be possible to safety a weapon like a pistol or shotgun against accidental discharge. I have for some reason discharged my weapon way too soon every now and then (I swear it normally does not happen! lol)

 

Yeah, I had an accidental discharge last night, 3 pistol shots while switching to a weapon I had stowed in my duffelbag on my back. I was panicing IRL, and my character was just "another day in zomboid land ho hum".  Needless to say, I was running away from the horde after that stupid mistake.

 

Worth mentioning I thought, given its related to a safety system of sorts.

[DukeTheWolf]

RJ you and anyone who helped come up with this idea and the way it works with safety on and off need to pat yourselves on the back, RIGHT NOW! go ahead, I can wait till you have done so.....

really guys this doesn't drastically change the game, but that doesn't mean for a second that this isn't a game changer. fixing the shoot on sight thought process in a PvP world isn't an easy task, and I love that you developers are concerned about it enough to test a innovative way to fix this mentality. someone in the forum said "mental patience running around" which is how PvP usually feels. (laughed at that one ) but those mental patience leave a sense of uncertainty when meeting new players in PvP which usually leads a friendly player to reach for his shotgun and blow a hole in a complete stranger, this gives a little heads up. say if you come up to a person and they have the safety on and you also have it on its a way of seeing that they wave the same flag as you, a flag of a sane person, you see someone throw safety up as soon as they see you, well maybe they are okay and maybe they are just a wolf in sheep clothed fashion.
also a side not for lemmy! I love the way you worked it and referenced to amc's TWD that scene, great reference to explain to someone that this is making PvP roleplay more involved and easier to read a persons intent instead of assuming everyone is a "mental patient"
anyways I'm ranting like the Irishman I am, great job guys and I hope the tests prove to make a game changer to MP PvP!

 

Duke The Wolf

[Aricane]

I mentioned it before in this thread. Safety system only helps the victims of other players false intentions. They do not prevent kill on sight.

I'll have my safety system switched off 95% of the time. If I go out with some buddies to clear an area of zeds I would switch it on. I can't think of other reasons.

[DukeTheWolf]

well when I walk around with it on and you have it off I will shoot you, and you will die. but if you had it on we could have a moment of friendly conversation or bare minimum a friendly, respectful pass by without guns blazing.

so what you said earlier in this thread which im sure everyone already read may be the way things will work for "you" but heres to hoping not all people think like you.

 

if I have safety on I can still merc people who have safety off. you understand that part of this function right?

[Aricane]

well when I walk around with it on and you have it off I will shoot you, and you will die. but if you had it on we could have a moment of friendly conversation or bare minimum a friendly, respectful pass by without guns blazing.

so what you said earlier in this thread which im sure everyone already read may be the way things will work for "you" but heres to hoping not all people think like you.

 

if I have safety on I can still merc people who have safety off. you understand that part of this function right?

Well in that case, contrary to what you may think, you're the violent part of us

[DukeTheWolf]

you need to work on your comprehension Aricane, good luck with that.