Map Pings!

[Lefrax]

I've seen on a video from AtomicDuck there will be an option to see other players on the map. It's a good thing to adress the difficulty to find other players in-game, but I find it lacks a little RP and is a bit too much OP.

 

So what I suggest is having the possibility to send a ping, either by chat or by UI in the map or a keyboard shortcut. A ping would be seen as a specific mark on other players' map, that would indicate the sender's name and would show for a specific duration, after which it would fade so it would not pollute maps. Pings would not need items as to not disadvantage starting players needing a lift.

 

I think this system would be a bit more like a tool that could add something, not only answering a need. It would be something less passive, necessiting active play from the players. For example, it could be a mean to gain intel in servers with faction wars. Also, it add a bit of uncertainity to a tool that should not give so much info passively.

 

What do you think?

[duh7]

Bad idea. From when irl when u open map u seeother on it?

Or see pings? 

For communication u have walkie-talkie and still ppl use discords or Global chat. Part of game is immersion no matter if u like it or not and giving stuff like that take that immersion away. 

[Lefrax]

Sorry for the very long delay.

 

PZ is a game. We don't simulate everything, because the moste important part is for PZ to be enjoyable.

 

I suggest this for the same reason the map isn't reset when you create another character after diying: because it's useful.

 

For the record, The Indie Stone themselve are developping an option to permanently see other players on the map, which I think would be even farer from reality and much more OP.

 

But for various reasons we need to be able to know where are the other players we play with, the vast majority of them not knowing the map enough to describe properly where they are. So my proposal is sort of a middle ground. Less OP and unrealistic than the dev tools, while adding interesting gameplay mechanics such as being non-passive which mean more involvement from players as well as a cost for using it, being a potential risk on servers with multiple factions.

[duh7]

On 8/30/2022 at 2:54 PM, Lefrax said:

Sorry for the very long delay.

 

PZ is a game. We don't simulate everything, because the moste important part is for PZ to be enjoyable.

 

I suggest this for the same reason the map isn't reset when you create another character after diying: because it's useful.

 

For the record, The Indie Stone themselve are developping an option to permanently see other players on the map, which I think would be even farer from reality and much more OP.

 

But for various reasons we need to be able to know where are the other players we play with, the vast majority of them not knowing the map enough to describe properly where they are. So my proposal is sort of a middle ground. Less OP and unrealistic than the dev tools, while adding interesting gameplay mechanics such as being non-passive which mean more involvement from players as well as a cost for using it, being a potential risk on servers with multiple factions.

They give an option for that.  Still that option can be turned off same like map for ppl that dont use it.

 

Well u dont need to know Where other players are. U have chat, walkie-talkie, other radios and ur own eyes and brain so communication device is There but players dont like to use them.

If u want to have all players on map meaby put cars too and Loot and why there is not option for every crates and container on map?
 
Immersive problem.

IRL map is a peace of paper and game is in time gps was something New. Puting pings like that without option to turn it off permamently kills immersion. This game started as realistic zombie survival based on books/movies and in books/movies devs use are no gps on maps on every survivor on this game shuld not have to. 

Reason why pvp is a thing is that nobody see u on map and u want to put players on it so everybody will know not only number of players but location to. That is a bad idea.

 

If Player have problem not knowing map he shuld take time to learn it. Player can use online map or play solo. It game is to hard for there is solo mode with diffrent options to make game easier but adding a player ping on map and minimap i basicly a pulling toddler by hand. There are mechanics that help with communication and problem is that players dont want to use them. 

Lazzyness of some of players is so harsh that they want start game knowing every inch of map fully geared to go how fast they can to PvP and to kill some zombies or troll players and quit game after a day or two. 
Not knowing map shuld challange players behavior and with ping idea u plan to give every information about ur surrondings? This is not how this game shuld work. 

Map shuld be turned off entirely, communication shuld be by in game communication like chat and radios.
To Play a game u shuld learn basics rules and if u dont want to learn it meaby this game is not for u. 
That was a zombie survivaI and shuld stai like that. I can compare it to super Mario or souls series one is a brainless platformer other a hardcore  for players that wanted to learn it. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by duh7

[getstoopid]

Wow... that was totally uncalled for  It's ok to criticise or counter his arguments but not in this way I'd say. He never said he was to lazy to learn this game and he didn't even mention pvp servers... so why railing on him?

[duh7]

1 hour ago, getstoopid said:

Wow... that was totally uncalled for  It's ok to criticise or counter his arguments but not in this way I'd say. He never said he was to lazy to learn this game and he didn't even mention pvp servers... so why railing on him?

Long day. Ye meaby i could use diffrent worlds i will edit it when i get day off.

 

[CannedRat]

I think there is a lot of space between the features that the basic (vanilla) game should provide to new players and the more sophisticated options that experienced players are interested in. 

 

I think the base game should have a fairly simple map feature in multi-player that lets new players get their bearing and find their friends and previous bodies automatically.  These features should be "opt-out", so that as the players start to gain ability and knowledge of the game, they can tune it to their personal taste.  This could include the ping feature above, grid references, street names, navigation aids, compass, landmarks (with labels) etc.  Currently the vanilla map is VERY bare bones and is totally useless unless the player is already familiar with the area and can communicate with thier friend using shared knowledge of routes and landmarks.  The fact that they have all this prior knowledge defeats the point of blind exploration that the simple map seems to try to support.     

 

On top of these vanilla features, modders can and have added more sophisticated and subtle options to turn this stuff off, add PVP options etc.  This lets MP servers be tuned to the desires of their most knowledgable players who are seeking a higher level of challenge.

 

Even if the map does give players information about where their friends are, its not like thats a major help.  The map does not help with information about whats between the players on the map.  The map just points them in the direction and reduces some of the frustration.  There are still lots of suprises waiting in the unknown.   

[duh7]

On 8/31/2022 at 3:40 AM, CannedRat said:

I think there is a lot of space between the features that the basic (vanilla) game should provide to new players and the more sophisticated options that experienced players are interested in. 

 

I think the base game should have a fairly simple map feature in multi-player that lets new players get their bearing and find their friends and previous bodies automatically.  These features should be "opt-out", so that as the players start to gain ability and knowledge of the game, they can tune it to their personal taste.  This could include the ping feature above, grid references, street names, navigation aids, compass, landmarks (with labels) etc.  Currently the vanilla map is VERY bare bones and is totally useless unless the player is already familiar with the area and can communicate with thier friend using shared knowledge of routes and landmarks.  The fact that they have all this prior knowledge defeats the point of blind exploration that the simple map seems to try to support.     

 

On top of these vanilla features, modders can and have added more sophisticated and subtle options to turn this stuff off, add PVP options etc.  This lets MP servers be tuned to the desires of their most knowledgable players who are seeking a higher level of challenge.

 

Even if the map does give players information about where their friends are, its not like thats a major help.  The map does not help with information about whats between the players on the map.  The map just points them in the direction and reduces some of the frustration.  There are still lots of suprises waiting in the unknown.   

New player shuld learn game and map. Learning is part of all rpg games and PZ is not brainless shooter. If they want to group with more experienced players they old ones can give them tips, gear guide etc.

 

There is a mod so they can use mod but if devs want to give something like that to vanilla better to have options to turn it off permamently.
Frustration is on every step and they need to learn to live with it.

[CannedRat]

I agree duh7.  New players are going to have to learn to survive in PZ.  My point is that there is a fine line between making a game challenging and frustrating for a new player or just catering to experienced players.  There has to be a bridge for new players to get a foothold and start to gain experience.  The learning curve can be pretty brutal in PZ.

 

However,  I think that there is a big difference between the solo long form game and a coop game. 

 

In a solo game, you are alone.  You need to struggle to survive and the map gives you just enough to keep you exploring.  Learning and frustration are very much the substance of the game.  Its a long form game.  Either the new player is hooked or they are not.  

 

In a coop game, when you only have a certain window of time when you and your friends are able to play together,  the co-op game only really starts when you are "together" and co-operating.  Its the co-operative experience that is the substance of the co-op game play. 

 

Giving the co-op players a few tools to help them get from "spawned somewhere randomly" to "co-op" fun times is probably a good way to foster the co-op play and let players start to work together without wasting too much of their play session fumbling around.  No one likes the fumble and stuffing around with mods and settings to eat into their play time.  Having yet another obstacle once you have spawned before you can get together with your mates and do some actual playing is just another barrier to entry.  There are other games with a much faster setup time than a multi-player PZ. At least in L4D I can cover a new player and show them around a bit before they meet the locals. 

 

For players who are looking to play a much longer form of the PZ game, these map tools are irrelevant.  But for people who just want to roll up a quick play session with their mates, or introduce a new friend to PZ... the current map makes it almost impossible.  It takes an incredible amount of time and immersion breaking behaviour to "find" a new player who has spawned "somewhere" and get them to the saftey of a team where they can learn from experienced friends.  A new player spawning into a PZ game with more experienced players is going to have a really crappy time trying to get their bearings, learn the game, find transport, not die and join up with their friends all while their friends essentially "wait" for them.  This is not fun for the new player and makes the co-op experience a bit of a downer.

 

I think its probably hard for the developers to be able to see the game through the eyes of a new player.  I imagine they are all seasoned players.  This game makes the "onboarding" process for a new player quite difficult.  There are lots of pointless obstacles that a new player has to get over before they can even experience the core gameplay and decide if they like it.  These obstacles for new players are multiplied in co-op play.  You only get one chance to make a good first impression on a new player.  Giving them an easy path to "get playing with their friends" is essential.  Set up a "Sane defaults" option that will get a game going and the team all spawned together (or knowing where each other is on the map) would make this game more approchable.  (not fun, just approchable for a new player)

 

None of this is commentary on how the game works for experienced players.  They are already hooked and will put up with all sorts of obstacles to get their PZ fix. 

 

It does raise the question however, about the how "niche" the game development team wants to stay.  Do they actually want to make the game approchable to new players?  There is always a "hard core" rump in any "hard" game community that wants to keep it just for themselves and becomes hostile to "newbies" with obstacles and insider language and gating behaviours.  But without new players... all games die. 

  

Edited September 5, 2022 by CannedRat

[getstoopid]

I totally agree with CannedRat on this. For non-seasoned players are many aspects of this game very (and unnecessary) hard to learn and understand and orienting in and navigating the world is one of them.

[duh7]

18 hours ago, getstoopid said:

I totally agree with CannedRat on this. For non-seasoned players are many aspects of this game very (and unnecessary) hard to learn and understand and orienting in and navigating the world is one of them.

Like U said for sesion Player.  Pz is a griding game so i need spend Time to literaly get or make stuff.  From devinition u need spend much Time so game can reward u. Its not a game for sesioned Players. 

[duh7]

On 9/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, CannedRat said:

The learning curve can be pretty brutal in PZ.

That The reason we still Play it.

 

On 9/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, CannedRat said:

Giving the co-op players a few tools to help them

Its called discord, Global chat or if lucky on start walnie-talkie and they still have choice in what Town they want to spawn do it a bot random an admin can easly tp to if that a big problem.

 

On 9/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, CannedRat said:

There are other games with a much faster setup time than a multi-player PZ.

So why They dont Play that games? Why they force a change in games that is a survival to play coop when there are games designed strictly for that?

On 9/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, CannedRat said:

There are lots of pointless obstacles that a new player has to get over before they can even experience the core gameplay and decide if they like it. 

Dk what u mean.  Learning process of game is not obstacle is part of design. Admin can spawn everything if they realy lazzy and tp everybody in one place but Where is fun in that? 

On 9/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, CannedRat said:

You only get one chance to make a good first impression on a new player.

Game shuld not do Good First imperssion by showing something that is not Core. Core of game is griding and survival so players even in coop shuld strugle to survive.

 

On 9/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, CannedRat said:

Giving them an easy path to "get playing with their friends" is essential. 

They have a lot pings on map dont change it that There are tools to communicate. 

 

On 9/5/2022 at 1:24 AM, CannedRat said:

does raise the question however, about the how "niche" the game development team wants to stay.  Do they actually want to make the game approchable to new players?  There is always a "hard core" rump in any "hard" game community that wants to keep it just for themselves and becomes hostile to "newbies" with obstacles and insider language and gating behaviours.  But without new players... all games die. 

We starting to Play in Time pz was in worst condytions than it is now. Making game easier will not change that that pz is not game for everyone and chenging core strugle survival is bad for players that hooked earlier and like how it is now. Game is hard and that is reason i Play it it challanges me.

[Lefrax]

On 9/5/2022 at 2:24 AM, CannedRat said:

In a coop game, when you only have a certain window of time when you and your friends are able to play together,  the co-op game only really starts when you are "together" and co-operating.  Its the co-operative experience that is the substance of the co-op game play. 

 

Totally agree with this (and most of CannedRat's post). It's exactly why the devs are doing their new tool to find people on maps.

But while I'm grateful they're doing it, I think it's a bit too OP. It's passive AF, and while you will certainly be able to disable it in the settings, there isn't much to use in-between. That's why I think a Ping feature could be useful, as much as some of the other possibilities CannedRat has proposed, because it's something you need to play. It's not automatic. CannedRat's ideas are more RP, pings have a cost (on pvp/factions servers).

 

@duh7you seems to mainly fear PZ being more casual and accessible. It's a valid fear but I don't think the devs are going in this direction. They'd have done another game if that was the case. Their own tool will be optional AFAIK, as would be the feature I propose. And perhaps it's not realistic, but realism is not the objective. Realism is a tool, and it shouldn't prevent people from having fun. Also, perhaps you don't realise it but the tone of your answers is condescending and it undermines your valid points.

[bliss]

I would like a map pinging feature it were attached to the usage of a flare gun. You shoot it. People see the flare in the sky, and they get a general ping of your location.

[Lefrax]

13 minutes ago, bliss said:

I would like a map pinging feature it were attached to the usage of a flare gun. You shoot it. People see the flare in the sky, and they get a general ping of your location.

Oh yeah nice!

Could be a part of the Starter Kit so it would be tailored for beginners or players that don't know the map really well, while letting other the possibility to find the gun or use another method. I like it!