Eye Injuries

[Bullet_Magnate]

Seems logical that injuries to the face, particularly scratches and lacerations, might injure an eye.  So far as I know, this is not something that currently exists in-game.  

 

Effects could include loss of accuracy, and reduction of range / field of vision, or even blindness if both eyes are injured badly enough. 

 

This could also give added value to things like safety glasses and welder masks, which could reduce the chance of such injuries.  

 

Such injuries could also become permanent to an extent, which is a separate subject likely meriting its own thread ... 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Bullet_Magnate
fixing typo

[Irken Empire]

Right! Heart attacks, herpies, fever, numbness, rabies, HIV, schizophrenia no reason not to add these and so on, I mean you're just an average Kentuckian in 1993 prone to anything and everything.

This is just my sarcastic respone to a silly idea of micromenagment among MANY other things that we don't really need nor want, but could be great or just as RP mehanic in a form of a mod like defecation mod. In general this would only annoying for people and by the first month those who don't get infected will be blind as bats.

[getstoopid]

You should think about how you respond to ideas of other people in this thread. No problem with criticism or counterarguments if they are respectful.

Why would this be micromanagement? You wouldn't have to do anything. You get injured in the face and if you got bad luck your eye is broken and you lose some of your field of vision or get a "bad sight trait".

[orikamii]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:40 AM, Bullet_Magnate said:

Seems logical that injuries to the face, particularly scratches and lacerations, might injure an eye.  So far as I know, this is not something that currently exists in-game.  

 

Effects could include loss of accuracy, and reduction of range / field of vision, or even blindness if both eyes are injured badly enough. 

 

This could also give added value to things like safety glasses and welder masks, which could reduce the chance of such injuries.  

 

Such injuries could also become permanent to an extent, which is a separate subject likely meriting its own thread ... 

 

 

 

It's an interesting idea. I don't know how it would fit in the scope of the game though. I'm almost positive that the devs are planning on adding more complexity to the first aid system, perhaps that will be enough to scratch the itch you're looking for?
 

On 8/6/2022 at 1:11 PM, Irken Empire said:

Right! Heart attacks, herpies, fever, numbness, rabies, HIV, schizophrenia no reason not to add these and so on, I mean you're just an average Kentuckian in 1993 prone to anything and everything.

This is just my sarcastic respone to a silly idea of micromenagment among MANY other things that we don't really need nor want, but could be great or just as RP mehanic in a form of a mod like defecation mod. In general this would only annoying for people and by the first month those who don't get infected will be blind as bats.

Very unnecessary commentary. Get some sleep.

Edited August 8, 2022 by orikamii

[Bullet_Magnate]

Quote

I'm almost positive that the devs are planning on adding more complexity to the first aid system, perhaps that will be enough to scratch the itch you're looking for?

 

Hoping so.  Since the intent of the game (as I understand it) is to be as realistic as reasonably possible, I'm hoping the medical system is expanded to include more types of significant injuries that survivors would be likely to suffer.  Eye injuries would be a real possibility, if having zombies claw at your face became a routine event.  

 

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This is just my sarcastic respone to a silly idea

 

Okay.  

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Bullet_Magnate
De-Snarkifying

[duh7]

Great idea. Stuff like that make some proffesion more viable. 

On 8/6/2022 at 6:11 PM, Irken Empire said:

Right! Heart attacks, herpies, fever, numbness, rabies, HIV, schizophrenia no reason not to add these and so on, I mean you're just an average Kentuckian in 1993 prone to anything and everything.

This is just my sarcastic respone to a silly idea of micromenagment among MANY other things that we don't really need nor want, but could be great or just as RP mehanic in a form of a mod like defecation mod. In general this would only annoying for people and by the first month those who don't get infected will be blind as bats.

This is a survival game and fighting with injured eye is realistic.  Ur sarcastic proposition are Great for a game like PZ it give variety of diffrent moodles, sicknes or injured that players will need treat diffrently. 

[Bullet_Magnate]

On 8/14/2022 at 2:10 PM, duh7 said:

Great idea. Stuff like that make some proffesion more viable. 

This is a survival game and fighting with injured eye is realistic.  Ur sarcastic proposition are Great for a game like PZ it give variety of diffrent moodles, sicknes or injured that players will need treat diffrently. 

 

Actually, I agree least one of the items listed in the response, though meant facetiously, is worth considering -- and some of them (surprise) already exist in the game to an extent.  

 

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Heart attacks, herpies, fever, numbness, rabies, HIV, schizophrenia

 

HIV and herpes are obvious "no's," considering the devs have made clear sex will not be simulated in the game in any way.  Schizophrenia is rare and complex enough that I doubt it's worth the effort of simulating (though, perhaps unsurprisingly, there is a mod for that).  

 

BUT ... fever already exists in-game, in that if a player gets sick (with the Knox virus or otherwise), his temperature can elevate.  Numbness is also at least implied when the character's body temperature drops.  I'm assuming there's some negative gameplay effect from being chilled, which in effect would simulate stiffness / numbness and other debilitating effects of cold.  

 

That leaves heart attacks and rabies.    

 

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Since the intent of the game (as I understand it) is to be as realistic as reasonably possible, I'm hoping the medical system is expanded to include more types of significant injuries that survivors would be likely to suffer.  

 

The above quote sums up my position on medical stuff generally in the game.  Expressed in more detail, if a medical condition is: 

 

     (1) Something a person in a PZ scenario would have a realistic chance of suffering, and

     (2) It would have meaningful gameplay effect (i.e., cause significant health reduction and/or palpably impair the sufferer in some way), and

     (3) It can be well and playably simulated without inordinate work on the devs' part; and

     (4) There are no contrary considerations of ethics, propriety, etc., that militate in favor of exclusion (as with, e.g., things sexual and/or scatological); THEN

     (5) It should be CONSIDERED (however briefly) for inclusion.  

 

NOTE that this is just my standard for when a medical condition should be CONSIDERED -- that is, when I basically think it's worth the devs' time to at least THINK for a few minutes about whether it's worth including.  As far as I'm concerned, that's the whole purpose of the "PZ Suggestions" forum.  

 

I think heart attacks meet this standard, while rabies does not.  

 

     Heart Attacks:  Clearly, people in a PZ scenario could easily suffer heart attacks, particularly if they are older, overweight, out of shape, etc. (factors already reasonably contemplated by certain negative traits -- and potentially a new trait, "Heart Condition," could be added).  Heart disease is already common in the U.S. (particularly in ... you guessed it ... Kentucky), and heart attacks would be even more common in a PZ scenario (as susceptible persons are forced by circumstance to rapidly engage in an unaccustomed degree of physical exertion under extreme stress).  A character suffering a heart attack would clearly incur potential injury (or death) and impairment.  Attacks would actually be far more dangerous in a PZ scenario due to lack of available medical care.  Heart attacks could be simulated relatively easily by giving severely overweight / unfit characters a small chance of suffering an attack during periods of high exertion / stress, which would result in immediate severe pain followed by death in minutes / hours (unless mitigated with rest and/or appropriate medication).  There are no overriding concerns warranting exclusion.  Accordingly, I believe heart attacks should at least potentially be considered for inclusion.  

 

     Rabies:  The devs are planning to add animals, including carnivorous and omnivorous mammals -- which theoretically could be vectors for rabies.  Rabies has significant physical symptoms and, left untreated (likely in PZ), is virtually always fatal, typically within 2-10 days of manifestation.  Currently, however, rabies in the U.S. is relatively rare: each year only about 45,000 people in the entire U.S. (about 900 per state) are treated for it, and fatalities are virtually nonexistent due to ready availability of treatment.  This is in part due to aggressive pet vaccination programs in the United States.  In the rest of the world, domestic dogs are the primary vector, while in the U.S., it is various small wild mammals (with bats and skunks being the most common infectors in Kentucky).  Vaccination programs would obviously cease in a PZ scenario, but it is unclear how soon wild dogs and similar animals would become a significant infection threat.  Presumably simulating rabies-infecting bites by other small, wild animals would simply amount to blatant "death by RNG."  Rabid animals become erratic and aggressive, which makes them more of a potential threat to players -- BUT would also require changes to the animal AI model as well.  Simulating the severe mental symptoms and complex treatment of victims would be challenging; these aspects might have to be simplified or omitted.  There are no overriding concerns that would warrant exclusion.  However, given its relative rarity and the complexity of simulating (1) its behavioral changes in animals and (2) its symptoms and treatment in humans, I do not believe rabies should be considered for inclusion.  (In addition, from a gameplay perspective, it might seem odd to have a second blood/saliva transmitted fatal disease "competing," in a way, with the Knox Virus.)

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bullet_Magnate
fixing typos

[duh7]

There is a mod that give more drugs with hear atacks if u loose to much blood, are too stresed or done something very exhausing.

[Irken Empire]

On 8/14/2022 at 8:10 PM, duh7 said:

Great idea. Stuff like that make some proffesion more viable. 

This is a survival game and fighting with injured eye is realistic.  Ur sarcastic proposition are Great for a game like PZ it give variety of diffrent moodles, sicknes or injured that players will need treat diffrently. 

[Laker]

IIRC, eyes, because they are so basic to survival, have evolved to have a very quick heal time.  

 

On the point of introducing a variety of medical conditions, if you develop chronic medical illnesses that require monitored medical care and prescriptions drugs as preventatives, you won't live very long in a post-apocalyptic world.  

 

I assume that the survivors have a great genetic makeup that will allow them to survive zombie scratches, etc.  Otherwise, most characters would die within a few months of something medically related.  Something as simple as a simple scratch or a bit of tainted water.  I don't want to play a game where I am walking down the street and die from a massive heart attack.  

 

One of the things about zombie shows, I've always wondered, how characters don't die of a myriad of illnesses after they kill a zombie with blood sprayed all over them.  Sometimes a suspension of belief is needed to play the game.  

[Bullet_Magnate]

14 hours ago, Laker said:

I assume that the survivors have a great genetic makeup that will allow them to survive zombie scratches, etc.  Otherwise, most characters would die within a few months of something medically related.  Something as simple as a simple scratch or a bit of tainted water.  I don't want to play a game where I am walking down the street and die from a massive heart attack.  

 

The thing is, there are a ton of negative character traits that run directly contrary to this.  In theory, you could play a character that is asthmatic, clumsy, deaf, feeble, obese, prone to illness, nearsighted, thin-skinned, underweight, and unfit -- not exactly a "great genetic makeup" that would predispose someone toward survival. 

 

But, given the degree of customization the game offers -- even IF the medical system is expanded to include things like, say, coronary problems -- you'll never *have* to play a game where your character will just "randomly die of a heart attack." 

 

First: the change I'm proposing would only make a character vulnerable to such an event if they had certain negative traits (e.g., obese, unfit) -- so, don't use those traits.  Second: risk of an attack would be tied to high exertion -- so if you do choose to use those traits, just ... avoid over-exerting your character (which is good advice in any event).  

 

The game purports to be a brutally unforgiving and *realistic* simulator of what a "real" zombie apocalypse would be like -- including for survivors who are fat and out of shape (as evidenced by the negative traits noted above).  If it really is what it claims to be, it would make perfect sense to include conditions like this one; and people who didn't want to deal with the possibility could easily avoid it through trait selection and/or avoiding triggering activities.  

 

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IIRC, eyes, because they are so basic to survival, have evolved to have a very quick heal time.  

 

On this note, that may be true for relatively trivial eye injuries like minor scratches, but if an eye suffers extensive tissue damage or is completely gouged out, I guarantee it's not going to be fully functional again any time soon -- or possibly at all.  Also, note that I'm not proposing that eye injuries be likely, just that they be possible -- I'm not proposing that every random slap from a zombie should send the player's eyeballs flying out of their head.    : )

 

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One of the things about zombie shows, I've always wondered, how characters don't die of a myriad of illnesses after they kill a zombie with blood sprayed all over them.  

 

My understanding is that the skin is a pretty effective barrier against infection, so most blood-transmitted diseases won't get through as long as the blood doesn't come into contact with broken skin (or possibly get in the eyes / nose / mouth).    

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Bullet_Magnate
Fixing Typos / Adding Comment

[CannedRat]

I think the basic idea of eye injuries is a visually interesting game mechanic.  Because field of view is already very well developed in the game with some traits affecting it, there is already the framework to implement this possibility.  I think that like any scratch/infection it should be something that can happen, but is "curable" with some healing time.  For instance getting scratched across the eyes while running through the woods is plausible, its also probably not very likely and would make the game unplayable if the likelyhood was rasied beyond the infintesimal.  There is no way you would ever use the trees as cover if you went in to some bushes to escape some zombies and got blinded.... that would just be sucky.  Being partially blinded with a single cone of vision would be very hard to clearly communicate to the player... unless they were watching their health UI while running.

 

So how else could you get an eye injury?  Fighting zombies?  So, say you get in a tangle with a zed or two and there is a chance you will  get blinded during the fight...? Does the screen go black?  How does it get communicated to the player?  How long does the fight last once you are blind?  How much fun are you having with a black screen and the sound of ago zombies in your headphones?   

 

So, the issue is that while this might be something for the hard-core roleplayers, the low frequency and the catastrophic impact of the event would suggest that its not something most players should encounter. I think its just going to be game ending event and mean that if there is a reasonable chance of it happening, players will simply learn to avoid doing the activity with the attached catastrophic risk.   

 

Lastly, when you get an eye injury, its debilitating and often needs another person's aid to resolve.  Firstly to get you to saftey, then to address the injury... then to keep you fed and sheltered while you heal.  This would be a challenge to simulate much beyond the current "scratched and bleeding" mechanic in the UI. 

 

So, as Irken pointed out above, there are injuries that while they are plausible, just make the game miserable.  Broken bones are way more common than eye injuries, so are soft tissue injuries, but again the question of how to simulate them, how to communicate the state to the player and how much does it help the player spend their game time?  I think these are all "abstracted" into the current injury mechanism with just enough frequency to make it interesting without players having to deal with a complex risk model that would turn the fantasy of the game into the challenge that is real life.

[getstoopid]

I agree that going completely blind would be a reason to quit but in my opinion this could be done by reasonable limiting the effect... one-eyed for example or a blurry vision at longer distance (like the blur in foraging mode) would not break the run completely, the blur could maybe even heal after some time..

[razab]

Vanilla game even has an eye patch as a clothing item. Maybe the devs already thought about introducing one-eyedness...

[CannedRat]

I like the blurred vision idea.  Thats a good way to visually communicate the characters vision state to the player. 

 

Another idea is "double vision" where you see the zombies duplicated and have to try to figure out which is the real target or just run away.   Hard to implement for the rest of the map, but it would be a visually striking effect that would clearly communicate to the player that there was an on-going vision problem that needs attention. 

 

Having one eye injured or permanently blinded would result in lack of depth perception in RL, which would be tricky to communicate visually in the game.  Just having half of the regular cone of vision is plausible but messing with depth perception is hard to visualise.  It would be interesting to perhaps combine the blur with the idea of half a cone of vision that clearly showed as an un-blurred wedge.  This way you could sweep the cone of vision around and it would be pretty obvious that the vision was narrowed.

 

For a temporary injury to one eye this is probably challenging but survivable and I would give it a go.  However, it still would need to be fairly infrequent or optional for hardcore players.

 

How is myopia handled? I have never taken the short sighted trait. 

 

Night blindness is another vision issue that might be something to consider for the game.  This would require the player to have an active light source to see anything once the ambient light level dropped enough for the purkinje shift (magic hour).  It could be cured by a dose of vitamins (which is what happens in RL).

[getstoopid]

Yes, Night blindness would be also very cool I think.. playable by just avoiding the dark but very inconvenient if it happens anyway. However I wouldn't make it cure-/treatable to prevent exploits.

[CannedRat]

Rather than a cure,  I should have said vitamins could be a temporary treatment. 

 

I think having to constantly search to find vitamins would be a pretty motivating reason to play without going blind at night.  If a dose of vitamins only works for a day or two then you need another pill it would add a whole new level of terror to nighttime without a light source.  Batteries and vitamins suddenly get really valuable.

Edited August 29, 2022 by CannedRat

[getstoopid]

Oh I like that! Temporary treatment sounds very playable and adds another purpose to vitamins aside of being actually super-ecstasy.