About balance: a list of stuff that seems broken/imbalanced to me

[Modin]

- Spears are the best weapons in the game with infinite supply

The swing speed should be nerfed so that it's on par with other weapons. The instakill effect should be gone too, or other stats should be made worse to compensate for it. Alternatively you could make spears even more fragile or increase their weight to prevent someone from stacking them so easily. You could eventually increase the Carpentry requirement to craft them at full condition, or make it so you need several planks for 1 spear, or increase the time it takes to craft them. It'd just be nice for them to be a viable alternative to any other weapon in the game - not the absolute best category.

 

- Even with lunges, windows are still op as hell with the manual floor attack

Especially with axes. Axe man is broken with manual floor attacks. Two-handed axes become the fastest weapon. You could reduce the swing speed of all weapons when floor attacking, or disable the ability to manual floor attack (which seems to speed up the swings compared to left clicking). You could also disable axe man's swing speed for floor attacks. You could eventually also fix windows altogether with a good fix instead of making lunges even more broken than they are currently - for example, give zombies a chance of crossing a window without falling to the ground. It could also be interesting if zombies had the ability to pull you from the other side of a window/fence - they already do this with cars so why not with all windows?

 

- Alcohol is op, especially with little sips

If you didn't know, alcohol can be sipped by starting to drink then pressing ESC. You use 1% of the bottle that way, and get to keep all the benefits, namely: panic reduction, ability to sleep whenever, pain reduction, unhappiness reduction. So the best tactic becomes to carry a beer can around and sip it ever so slightly every 1.5 hours which is the duration of the panic reduction. You become immune to all forms of unhappiness (and thus boredom), panic, and pain. A beer can used that way lasts months. Make the effects dependent on drinking at least a set amount.

 

- Nutrition is broken with the ability to survive on cereals forever

There's no reason to use canned food or any other type of food that's heavy, since you can just get 40-45 hunger per .2 weight with cereal or maple syrup. So my car is literally filled with those (along with chips and other lightweight food). It'd be nice to see this balanced. Maybe balance the weight of food items so cereal/maple syrup isn't so much better than canned food? Or make canned food give more hunger? Maybe implement some unhappiness effect that stacks the longer you eat 1/2/3 same types of food all the time? Or make it impossible to down an entire box of cereal in a couple of seconds, and about that:

 

- It's too easy to keep your weight up

How can I just eat an entire block of butter like it's nothing and not have cataclysmic diarrhea. How can I eat an entire bag of uncooked pasta or rice or dried lentils. It's way too easy imo to overeat, and too unrealistic the way you can eat stuff that is absolutely 100% not edible and would give you a stomachache for days. It increases unhappiness which you can shrug off with antidepressants (or the aforementioned alcohol trick), and thirst which is not a problem at all and brings me to my next point:

 

- Water is too easy to find

Water staying in the pipes is nice, but it doesn't make sense and makes thirst trivial. How does a bathtub have 5x the water in the pipes compared to a sink? And how can I drink water that sat 6 months in pipes? Wouldn't it be dangerous? (I can't find any info on this) But mostly it would be nice if at some point we'd finally have to start collecting our own water instead of being able to rely indefinitely on sinks and bathtubs. Even just a neighbourhood must have enough water so you can stay hydrated for an entire year. I think water in pipes should slowly but surely decrease in volume so that 6 months later, there's barely any water left (1 unit out of 20?). Or make it tainted after some time spent sitting in the pipes.

 

- The multiple tiles/hits exponential effect for xp makes leveling some skills trivial

Electrical, Carpentry, Metalworking, Aiming. Those 4 skills are affected by the multiple tiles/hits effect. I can go from 1 carpentry to 2 by deconstructing 3 king-sized beds. So if you're not aware, deconstructing a 1 tile object = Y xp, deconstructing a 2 tiles object = Y * 2 * 2 xp, deconstructing a 4 tiles object = Y * 4 * 4 xp. Something must be wrong with the formula, unless this is intended, but then deconstructing a 4-tile bed gives 16 the amount of xp than deconstructing a chair gives, for the same amount of time spent. I'd be happier if it gave 4 times the amount of xp for 2-3-4 times the amount of time spent. This works for aiming too, hitting 1 zombie = Y xp, hitting 4 zombies = Y * 4 * 4 xp, making the shotgun the absolute best weapon to level aiming. Just make sure to hit 4 zombies every shot. I think the formula should be fixed - exponential increase is op.

 

- All of the negative traits that do nothing and are free points

There's lots of negative traits that do nothing, or barely anything. They should give less points or be balanced to actually be punitive relative to the points they give. A quick list: Thin-skinned, Conspicuous, Prone to Illness, Smoker, Weak Stomach, Short Sighted, Slow Reader.

 

- Bourbon bottles

Hold more water than water bottles for less weight which should be fixed.

 

- Some actions should make noise

Like disassembling a bed. That should definitely draw zombies.

 

- Infinite machete etc.. repairs with spears

Machetes should keep their repaired amount when made into a spear or reclaimed from a spear.

 

- Sterilized bandages are too strong, and bandages resetting is op

They fight infections so fast that they make any other way of fighting an infection useless. Antibiotics and alcohol wipes - useless vs some sterilized bandages. Also, they last forever since you can reset a bandage's durability by removing it and then reapplying it. I think bandages should maybe be overhauled so they have a "bloody" meter or something that slowly increases infection chance as well as a "sterilized meter" that starts ticking down instantly even if it's not applied, a bit like clothes. This would prevent resetting bandages and make sterilized bandages significantly less op - it'd at least force you to carry some disinfectant on yourself. The strength of their infection fighting ability should also be nerfed, or else antibiotics/wipes should be buffed.

 

That's all I can think of for now. Keep in mind this is all stuff I use, and am having fun with. I'm still reporting it because, well... some of this stuff completely breaks the intended (as I understand it) difficulty of this game. Spears make zombies into not much more than a mild inconvenience, for example, not the absolute terror they should be. Thirst is inconsequential, not anything I would ever worry about, etc etc...

Edited April 29, 2022 by Modin

[gusbighead]

I agree with you. I just want to add a point at the water's topic:

 

A simple solution to "every building have water on the pipes" is to roll a chance to have a broken/jammed (or not) faucet at every sinks/bathtubs and similars, and a small chance to be tainted (here I think the toilet's water should always be tainted). The water is there, but the faucet is broken/jammed and (maybe) tainted, so you can't have a nice free water as always. You'll need to explore more to find a sink~ that is functional to carry it to your main base, or make it reparable with level X of Metalworking.

[Modin]

Here's two more:

 

- You can combine resting + sitting for extra fast stamina regeneration. This seems like a bug.

 

- Vitamins, coffee and tea are abusable. For anyone who doesn't know, they reduce fatigue (sleepiness) and can be used without limits. You can keep yourself awake for an entire month if you have enough coffee/tea/vitamins to do it. There should definitely be some diminishing returns, or at least downsides to that. I know you put a cooldown into the use of lemongrass for example, a similar mechanic for fatigue reducing substances would be good. This works in tandem with the point above since the lower your fatigue, the higher your passive regen. And vitamins can be found on zombies. I find enough that I almost never have to sleep lol (killing 500 zombies a day at least though).

[Mork]

- Spears are the best weapons in the game with infinite supply:

Well, they are already pretty fragile, unless you have a high carpentry level: With a level 3, you make spears that kill like three zeds before breaking. I think the main problem is the fact that you find tree branches pretty easily (well, again, it depends on your character skills / traits and your game settings, but it's not that hard to find it anyway). My suggestion on this is to have to find a specific type of branch: a straight one, that would be rarer than the usual branches. On another hand, you can make only 1 spear out of a whole plank, which is pretty ridiculous, so I guess it balances out that ease you have to find branches...

 

- Even with lunges, windows are still op as hell with the manual floor attack

Well, before nerfing it, they should fix the fact that if you don't have the exact timing, your character will perform a normal attack while the zed is on the ground, and thus will touch nothing and let you open to the zed's crawling attack. And concerning the axe, yes, the axes are over powered, no wonder it's been a common weapon in all cultures around the world. I think it's pretty realistic.

 

- Nutrition is broken with the ability to survive on cereals forever

- It's too easy to keep your weight up

I think I remember the devs saying that, one day, they'll implement something about balanced meals. I believe only calories are taken into account, but the devs already have added carbohydrates, proteins, lipids in the food's characteristics, so I think it's a pretty solid hint that they plan on making something about it.

 

- Water is too easy to find

I agree concerning the pipes, but if they change it, they need to add the possibility to fill those sinks and bath tubs.

 

- All of the negative traits that do nothing and are free points

In fact, a total rebalance on both negative and positive traits need to be done, when it comes to their cost or how much point they give. I'm pretty sure the devs said it will be done at some point.

I wouldn't agree concerning your view on the smoker trait: In game-modes that have extremely low loot, getting both cigarettes and matches/lighter can be a challenge of its own. Resulting on your character quickly getting both "Nervous Wreck" and "Severely Depressed" moodles (which means a 30% decrease on your melee attack damage and much slower actions).

 

- Infinite machete etc.. repairs with spears

That exploit has been fixed in 41.69, I beleive. In fact, they messed it up, because the sole fact of attaching and detaching it from spear can greatly decrease the condition of your knife / machete / etc. (I just tested it). It really needs to be reworked.

 

- Sterilized bandages are too strong, and bandages resetting is op

I didn't notice that they are so strong at fighting infection, but ok, why not. I totally agree on the fact that bandages should not stay magically sterilized when stored, it makes no sense. I don't see how that "resetting" bandage thing works, it sound like an exploit I never heard of. Personaly, I change the bandage when it's dirty (and then you have to clean them with water... and I think it should requiere soap to clean it perfectly).

Edited May 2, 2022 by Mork
words

[Modin]

@Mork

 

On 5/2/2022 at 4:18 AM, Mork said:

- Spears are the best weapons in the game with infinite supply:

Well, they are already pretty fragile, unless you have a high carpentry level: With a level 3, you make spears that kill like three zeds before breaking. I think the main problem is the fact that you find tree branches pretty easily (well, again, it depends on your character skills / traits and your game settings, but it's not that hard to find it anyway). My suggestion on this is to have to find a specific type of branch: a straight one, that would be rarer than the usual branches. On another hand, you can make only 1 spear out of a whole plank, which is pretty ridiculous, so I guess it balances out that ease you have to find branches...

 

- Planks are too easy to find. With a simple hammer, you can already disassemble large beds for ~12 planks each. Add a screwdriver and you can disassemble doors. Add a saw and you can disassemble anything including common wooden fences. Carry an axe and a saw and trees transform into spears.

I agree that spears being fragile works to counterbalance their strength, but that's not enough imo. My experience is simply that... I have no reason to use any other weapon (except as a stepping stone to spears) and I wish I did.

 

On 5/2/2022 at 4:18 AM, Mork said:

- Even with lunges, windows are still op as hell with the manual floor attack

Well, before nerfing it, they should fix the fact that if you don't have the exact timing, your character will perform a normal attack while the zed is on the ground, and thus will touch nothing and let you open to the zed's crawling attack. And concerning the axe, yes, the axes are over powered, no wonder it's been a common weapon in all cultures around the world. I think it's pretty realistic.

 

- Yes that should definitely be fixed. Thanksfully, you can just bind a key to "manual floor attack" and that isn't a problem anymore. It shouldn't be hidden behind some option though imo.

 

On 5/2/2022 at 4:18 AM, Mork said:

- All of the negative traits that do nothing and are free points

In fact, a total rebalance on both negative and positive traits need to be done, when it comes to their cost or how much point they give. I'm pretty sure the devs said it will be done at some point.

I wouldn't agree concerning your view on the smoker trait: In game-modes that have extremely low loot, getting both cigarettes and matches/lighter can be a challenge of its own. Resulting on your character quickly getting both "Nervous Wreck" and "Severely Depressed" moodles (which means a 30% decrease on your melee attack damage and much slower actions).

 

- Smoker, from my experience only gets you to "agitated" maximum which is -10% damage. It does cause you unhappiness. I've personally never had trouble finding smokes. There are either so many zombies I'm bound to find some on them, or there aren't enough zombies which means I'm free to run to the nearest bar and get cigarettes there. 4 points just seems too much to me.

 

On 5/2/2022 at 4:18 AM, Mork said:

- Infinite machete etc.. repairs with spears

That exploit has been fixed in 41.69, I beleive. In fact, they messed it up, because the sole fact of attaching and detaching it from spear can greatly decrease the condition of your knife / machete / etc. (I just tested it). It really needs to be reworked.

 

- If it's been fixed then that's great, but I haven't seen anything in the list of changes. The decreased condition is already a thing right now on the latest stable build, but that's not enough. It just forces you to use wood glue, which granted is not easy to find.

 

On 5/2/2022 at 4:18 AM, Mork said:

- Sterilized bandages are too strong, and bandages resetting is op

I didn't notice that they are so strong at fighting infection, but ok, why not. I totally agree on the fact that bandages should not stay magically sterilized when stored, it makes no sense. I don't see how that "resetting" bandage thing works, it sound like an exploit I never heard of. Personaly, I change the bandage when it's dirty (and then you have to clean them with water... and I think it should requiere soap to clean it perfectly).

 

- I tested it in debug and infections take a minute or two to heal with a sterilized bandage vs dozens with alcohol wipes/antibiotics. Same for the resetting thing - you can see bandage duration in debug, and you'll notice that this duration resets when you reapply the bandage. You can keep a bandage from getting dirty by reapplying it.

[Mork]

14 hours ago, Modin said:

Thanksfully, you can just bind a key to "manual floor attack"

 

Oh, I totally forgot about that! I have that action binded to a very accessible key, but since I stopped playing for months, now that I comeback I forgot that... I wonder what I forgot, too. Thx for remiding me. ^^'

 

14 hours ago, Modin said:

Smoker, from my experience only gets you to "agitated" maximum which is -10% damage. It does cause you unhappiness.

 

Yeah, no, it definitively builds up your stress levels up to the maximum (Nervous Wreck). And the higher your stress is, the quicker your unhappiness will rise (up to the maximum "severely depressed"). I can tell you that because I usually take that trait, with extremely rare loot settings, and let me tell you that in the early game, your character's mental health can quickly become a mess because they didn't have a smoke in days (sometimes you found fire but no cigs, but more often it's the other way around).
You can compensate a bit with booze and books / comics, but it's no as good as those sweet sweet cancer lolipops.

 

14 hours ago, Modin said:

[repairs with spears ] If it's been fixed then that's great, but I haven't seen anything in the list of changes

 

I'm really not sure about that, honnestly. I may very probably messed up some info. That fact is: yes, it absolutly needs to be reworked.

If I understand correctly how it currently works, the knife that you recover from a spear will have the same condition as the spear. So if your spear is perfect, it then can even repare your knife. But if you're bad at carpentry, your brand new spear will start with a low condition level. And if you attach your precious pristine knife on it and immediatly detatched it: your knife will be ruined because now it has the same condition level as your spear.

And concerning the bandage exploit: yeah, I'm discovering it with your post. It obviously needs some rework, too.

[Modin]

From my experience, when you craft a new bladed spear, no matter the condition of the spear or the blade, the bladed spear will be poor condition (around 20-25%). Carpentry 10 does not change anything to that. Additionally, the spear/blade being lower in condition will lower the bladed spear's condition even more. So this is definitely good to address the abusable nature of bladed spears - you'll need lots of duct tape or wood glue (or both). But it still makes a couple wood glue/duct tape and a single machete into a very strong reusable weapon - either a spear with machete or a machete itself. That just upsets the balance imo since every other weapon eventually dies from being repaired too much.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Modin