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Tomwa

Is Feminism Still Necessary?  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the wage gap really caused by Systematic Gender Discrimination?

  2. 2. Is Rape Culture Real?

  3. 3. Is abortion a woman's right issue or a human's right issue?

    • Woman's Right issue
    • Human's Right issue


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I have no clear view on abortion: when does the potential for life become life, thus requiring the same privileges afforded to others?

I do agree that women do have a choice, up to a point, though and under varying circumstances.

The words are fun, though: Who isn't pro-choice or pro-life? At least with feminism someone can argue that it's inherently sexist to advocate only for the empowerment of women, rather than the empowerment of people in general.

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Abortion - its one of those debates where people can take either view point to an extreme end when clearly the correct  position is one of moderation.

 

In a perfect world no-one would need an abortion because everyone would practice safe and (obviously) consensual sex and plan for the future of their families. This would be done probably whilst listening to whale music and afterwards you'd practice yoga. In reality people can fuck around with multiple partners not caring about the consequences and spawn a pack of bastards in every port and not give a shit about any of them.

 

Clearly its not right to terminate an unborn baby because like it or not a baby is being killed. I personally think that ending someones life to save them from a much longer life of misery, pain and horror is a good thing and although I'm a squeamish, practicing Catholic I would assist in that and I think that anyone who would allow someone into a life of pain and horror is either a coward or an arsehole and in both cases should be ignored.

 

On the other hand its clearly not right to sleep with anything that moves and have to have multiple abortions if only because its a drain on health services and like it or not does affect both partners physically and mentally when forced to have one.

 

To be glib i think that abortion clinics should have a 3 strikes and out rule. 

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I have no clear view on abortion: when does the potential for life become life, thus requiring the same privileges afforded to others?

 

When did not getting murdered become a privelage?

When did using falacies equate to debating?

 

What?

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I have no clear view on abortion: when does the potential for life become life, thus requiring the same privileges afforded to others?

 

When did not getting murdered become a privelage?

When did using falacies equate to debating?

 

What?

 

You used a straw man argument; it's a logical fallacy.

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I have no clear view on abortion: when does the potential for life become life, thus requiring the same privileges afforded to others?

 

When did not getting murdered become a privelage?

 

Since I decided you should live, my son.

Call it murder all you want; to me an abortion is the termination of a fetus that is not capable of surviving outside of the womb. You see a small collection of cells as a person; I see them only as the potential to be a person.

 

For you it's murder, for me it's killing.

 

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For you it's murder, for me it's killing.

 

 

Yeah uh...even with this logic applied, I don't see how one is better than the other.

 

Killing potential life isn't "killing" per se to me.

Guess it's up for interpretation when "life" starts.

 

However, I do believe that abortion should be allowed. As the father, I would want to be a part of the discussion, though.

And mothers who are left alone (or without the father) should be able to "get rid of it" when they believe they cannot take the burden and find themselves lost.

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Yeah uh...even with this logic applied, I don't see how one is better than the other.

Murder has malice associated with it. Not that I'm implying they are the same but its like hunting, you wouldn't say you murdered a deer. You killed it. 

 

 

This is diving quickly into semantics XD

 

I think all told the argument that you're saving someone from a life of misery is a very, very bad one. You have no possible way of knowing that. First, there are plenty of adopted/raised in bad families/birth defected children that live very happy lives. Second, even if a person lives a life you would see as "bad" and "painful" that doesn't mean it should be taken from them. I mean let's be real here- you don't run down the street killing homeless people because they live painful, bad lives do you?

 

I'm not trying to say that I think abortion is wrong in all circumstances; but the above argument is a bad one based on bad logic to cover a lack of an argument. You can't judge for another person whether their life is worth living, that's entirely up to the person. You could argue that said 'person' is not a 'person' and that's all well and good, but don't try to tell me that you're doing it out of mercy to them. Even terminally ill hospital-bound children can live happy and fulfilling lives, even if they are short ones.

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That's the trouble of seeing sperm and ovum as a person outright. It implies that it should be able to make an informed decision on whether or not it wants to be born in what ever state or to what ever conditions that exist. Who has the right to take that choice away from "them" (I like singular plurals to refer to both sexes at once . . .)?

That judgement, whether a life is worth living, is one that the women on one side of my family had to make, as it was suspected they might be carriers of  Duchenne muscular dystrophy. This came to attention after one of my aunts had a child with the condition.

 

Frankly, I don't think there can be any absolutes in this sort of discussion.

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That's the trouble of seeing sperm and ovum as a person outright. It implies that it should be able to make an informed decision on whether or not it wants to be born in what ever state or to what ever conditions that exist. Who has the right to take that choice away from "them" (I like singular plurals to refer to both sexes at once . . .)?

That judgement, whether a life is worth living, is one that the women on one side of my family had to make, as it was suspected they might be carriers of  Duchenne muscular dystrophy. This came to attention after one of my aunts had a child with the condition.

 

Frankly, I don't think there can be any absolutes in this sort of discussion.

 

I'm pretty sure you can absolutely say people shouldn't decide for other people arbitrarily that their lives might be too "bad" to give them a chance.

 

Like I said- if you want to say it's not a 'person,' then that's certainly something that's up in the air for debate. But I feel strongly the other isn't.

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Was making a point that he said "Privelage" not "Right" but thanks for diving into the semantics, poor word choice on my part.

 

"When did not getting killed become a privelage?"

 

Better? One word and everyone freaks out geez. :razz:

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Yeah uh...even with this logic applied, I don't see how one is better than the other.

Murder has malice associated with it. Not that I'm implying they are the same but its like hunting, you wouldn't say you murdered a deer. You killed it.
And I still don't see how one is "better" than the other. The result is the same.
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And I still don't see how one is "better" than the other. The result is the same.

 

 

In this discussion it's not so much about the ultimate result, but about the ethics and therefore the intend. A woman who has an abortion will generally not consider the fetus as a human being, so even if it would be a person, abortion would be something along the lines of Involuntary manslaughter. But of course "Abortion is involuntary manslaughter", just doesn't have the same ring to it as "Abortion is Murder".

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Yeah uh...even with this logic applied, I don't see how one is better than the other.

Murder has malice associated with it. Not that I'm implying they are the same but its like hunting, you wouldn't say you murdered a deer. You killed it.

 

And I still don't see how one is "better" than the other. The result is the same.

 

But the intent isn't; neither are the legal repercussions.

Maybe it's a language barrier thing? :???:

 

 

 

Was making a point that he said "Privelage" not "Right" but thanks for diving into the semantics, poor word choice on my part.

 

"When did not getting killed become a privelage?"

 

Better? One word and everyone freaks out geez. :razz:

Rights are privileges. They can even be taken away or given under certain circumstances. (Philosophical and religious notions of rights not withstanding.)

 

In an ideal world, the right to live would be inalienable.

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I've got no opinion on 1 and 2, couldn't form a well-informed one. 

But on 3, I believe women DO have the right to abortion. I haven't read through all of the posts but the second and third post say that women have an obligation to keep the child because they got pregnant. What about rape leading to pregnancy? That child is going to be a constant reminder of that experience, and I say that a woman should be in the fullest right to have an abortion especially in such a case. If you can't lovingly raise a child, you shouldn't be having one.

The same goes for young girls becoming pregnant. Children being raised by children is a bad idea, it will ruin a lot of lifes. 

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If you can't raise the child don't have sex or have a procedure done so you don't get pregnant, it is much better than murdering every time you get pregnant. The father should have a say in the abortion too, right now a women could run off and kill the baby and you would never be asked if it was okay or possibly even know she did it when it is his child too.

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If people only put their kids up for adoption in cases of rape, etc. we'd have no problems. Honestly. All women who had been forced into pregnancy could easily find homes for their children. It's the men and women too lazy, apathetic, ignorant, and uncaring to use protection who get abortions that fuck everything up. In my opinion for those people who just couldn't be bothered to wear a condom/use birth control killing the mother is every bit as moral as killing the child. And I mean it. That's a sick way to live your life.

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If you can't raise the child don't have sex or have a procedure done so you don't get pregnant, it is much better than murdering every time you get pregnant. The father should have a say in the abortion too, right now a women could run off and kill the baby and you would never be asked if it was okay or possibly even know she did it when it is his child too.

It is wise for you to stop using the words "baby" and "murder".

 

A fetus is not a child, it is a mass of cells forming a baby. Saying a fetus is a baby is like saying jizz is a baby. And you can't "murder" something that isnt even fully formed let alone not alive.

 

If people only put their kids up for adoption in cases of rape, etc. we'd have no problems. Honestly. All women who had been forced into pregnancy could easily find homes for their children. It's the men and women too lazy, apathetic, ignorant, and uncaring to use protection who get abortions that fuck everything up. In my opinion for those people who just couldn't be bothered to wear a condom/use birth control killing the mother is every bit as moral as killing the child. And I mean it. That's a sick way to live your life.

 

lmao are you serious? What if the condom broke? What if the pill didn't work? How can you honestly say that you might as well kill the mother because she wants to remove a fetus from inside her aka a possible child that she is in no way ready for either emotionally or physically?

 

Jesus you people think in such black and white terms.

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If you can't raise the child don't have sex or have a procedure done so you don't get pregnant, it is much better than murdering every time you get pregnant. The father should have a say in the abortion too, right now a women could run off and kill the baby and you would never be asked if it was okay or possibly even know she did it when it is his child too.

It is wise for you to stop using the words "baby" and "murder".

 

A fetus is not a child, it is a mass of cells forming a baby. Saying a fetus is a baby is like saying jizz is a baby. And you can't "murder" something that isnt even fully formed let alone not alive.

 

If people only put their kids up for adoption in cases of rape, etc. we'd have no problems. Honestly. All women who had been forced into pregnancy could easily find homes for their children. It's the men and women too lazy, apathetic, ignorant, and uncaring to use protection who get abortions that fuck everything up. In my opinion for those people who just couldn't be bothered to wear a condom/use birth control killing the mother is every bit as moral as killing the child. And I mean it. That's a sick way to live your life.

 

lmao are you serious? What if the condom broke? What if the pill didn't work? How can you honestly say that you might as well kill the mother because she wants to remove a fetus from inside her aka a possible child that she is in no way ready for either emotionally or physically?

 

Jesus you people think in such black and white terms.

I don't want to hear that coming from you, and a person is also a clump of cells so I suppose we cant murder them. It is wise for you to stop sticking up for those who are irresponsible because rape, the condom breaking, etc. is  not the primary reason for people having unwanted babies. It is because they have sex without thinking or using protection, and those that never want a baby still don't go through the procedure to fix the problem.

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That's right.

That's why we're only limited to killing single-cell organisms, because having more than a single cell is the line we've drawn in the moralistic sand.

Me being an ass aside, sentience plays a part in this sort of discussion (when do a group of cells become a functional person?).

I don't understand why there is this sudden view that abortions are only done in an abusive, care-free manner.

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