Feminism

[EnigmaGrey]

It's often assumed that your choice in clothing indicates the type of person that you are. Suit and tie? Business-dude. Assless chaps and a cowboy hat? Male stripper.

There's a reason some articles of clothing are considered "provocative." For some, it results in sexualisation of that person -- sometimes exactly what the wearer of that clothing wants.

Not that this makes such faulty rationalizations of "they were asking for it" true or a a reasonable defense.

[Rathlord]

Wait... should I not have been wearing assless chaps and a cowboy hat to my business meetings? CRAP.

 

Fucking social interactions... how do they work.

[nasKo]

Wait... should I not have been wearing assless chaps and a cowboy hat to my business meetings? CRAP.

Fucking social interactions... how do they work.

Casual friday they said...

No dresscode they said...

[DrummerKidJack]

It's often assumed that your choice in clothing indicates the type of person that you are. Suit and tie? Business-dude. Assless chaps and a cowboy hat? Male stripper.

There's a reason some articles of clothing are considered "provocative." For some, it results in sexualisation of that person -- sometimes exactly what the wearer of that clothing wants.

Not that this makes such faulty rationalizations of "they were asking for it" true or a a reasonable defense.

Indeed, you have to be pragmatic to a certain degree. However, the sexualization is completely based in the eye of the beholder; certain clothing isn't intrinsically "sexual". Assumptions of a person's intent in wearing sexualized clothes as wanting to be seen as sexualized are not always correct. A person's sexuality or lack thereof shouldn't really ever be based on their wardrobe; it places the power in the eyes of the viewer, not the wearer.

 

But you do have to be practical. As you said, there is a reason things are considered provocative. I'm going to assume assless chaps means you like to do the booty dance for dollar bills, but there are grey areas: I know some girls who wear "provocative" clothes like cleavage-y dresses and short skirts because they find them more comfortable. Not because they want to be sexualized.

[Xydonus]

Women...

 

While we are on the sub-subject of sexualized (I didn't even know that was a legit word!) clothing  and 'provocative' messages being sent across, if I may twist that entirely to bring you a tale that happened to me this morning. I was getting a massage at my local gym which is not something I normally partake in, as I find it a bit strange for someone wanting to get rubbed down by a complete stranger, but my muscles were at me after a workout so I said fuck it..

 

So in I go, I pay the exorbitant fee and I'm met with this rather large and strangely intimidating woman with the largest droopy breasts you could possibly imagine (some of you will have no trouble imagining that) pouring out of the smallest possible cover. The cleavage.. It was like the Grand Canyon all over again. Being a gentleman and a courteous sort, I put my willpower into full gear to avert my gaze as much as possible, something that was under a lot of strain.

 

So anyway, she was going to be my masseuse. No problem. About 10 mins in, she starts standing in front of me as she's working my shoulders and upper back, and I get this sensation on the back of my head... Boing, Boing... Haha no, seriously.. I was getting smacked on the head by her Double Humongous Melons. My head was being used as a bouncy castle and she was enjoying the bouncing.

 

At this point, I was getting quite a few confusing messages across and it turned into a very surreal experience. She also did a few things I'm pretty sure a masseuse shouldn't do.. But I digress, you don't want to hear the details of that.

 

Anyhow, my point being; women can be dangerous. They can back a man into a corner and be deliberately (or in my case, passively - Although I can bloody tell you the passive provocation didn't last long and moved onto something else) provocative, and then cry foul later. I'm not saying that's always the case, certainly not, but usually that side of the story is rarely ever explored.

[k12314]

1) I think it's all based on the people who run who's paid how much. So it's the individual's sexism.

 

2) No, and if you support rape, you're fucked up.

 

3) I believe it's a woman's right. If you don't want a kid, don't have one. And what if there's a high risk of child birth killing the woman or causing serious complications?

[DrummerKidJack]

 

Anyhow, my point being; women can be dangerous. They can back a man into a corner and be deliberately (or in my case, passively - Although I can bloody tell you the passive provocation didn't last long and moved onto something else) provocative, and then cry foul later. I'm not saying that's always the case, certainly not, but usually that side of the story is rarely ever explored.

Yeah, there are twats on both sides; there's always people that take advantage of the system. What annoys me though is when people generalize those few instances (e.g. a woman accused me of rape and I couldn't defend myself or I had sex with a woman and then she said it was rape afterwards) and then say that's the norm. It's false equivalence; men sexually assault women (and other men) far more than the other way around.

 

Though of course then you have to go into the number of unreported instances and it gets very messy very quickly.

[EnigmaGrey]

And then there's the rather shifty nature of "just what is sexual assault . . . "

[Keepbro]

I'm not sure where I stand on a lot of things, but I really hate assertions of "if you don't want to be sexually assaulted, don't go around dressing provocatively". That's fucked. People, men or women, shouldn't live in fear of being assaulted because of what they're wearing, and then being blamed because their skirt was too short or their shirt was too tight.

 

Someone could be walking around butt naked and that still doesn't give you the right or make it understandable that you attack them. It also continues this disgusting trend I keep seeing on the internet that people keep saying about rape victims: "Oh, she was asking for it with that outfit". That's fucked.

The problem is is that it can be a red rag to a bull. If a 16 year old sneaks into a club dressed like Rihanna and gets off her face with drink then she's going to attract arseholes to her. The problem is that modern western culture has desensitised the youth to the point where they think wearing a miniskirt with a 1 inch hem line is a fashion statement and not realising the seriously strong signals that it sends out and are unprepared for the situations it gets them into. Yes the perpetrators are to blame but lacking common sense doesn't help.

[DrummerKidJack]

 

I'm not sure where I stand on a lot of things, but I really hate assertions of "if you don't want to be sexually assaulted, don't go around dressing provocatively". That's fucked. People, men or women, shouldn't live in fear of being assaulted because of what they're wearing, and then being blamed because their skirt was too short or their shirt was too tight.

 

Someone could be walking around butt naked and that still doesn't give you the right or make it understandable that you attack them. It also continues this disgusting trend I keep seeing on the internet that people keep saying about rape victims: "Oh, she was asking for it with that outfit". That's fucked.

The problem is is that it can be a red rag to a bull. If a 16 year old sneaks into a club dressed like Rihanna and gets off her face with drink then she's going to attract arseholes to her. The problem is that modern western culture has desensitised the youth to the point where they think wearing a miniskirt with a 1 inch hem line is a fashion statement and not realising the seriously strong signals that it sends out and are unprepared for the situations it gets them into. Yes the perpetrators are to blame but lacking common sense doesn't help.

 

It'd be nice if we could assume that other human beings aren't total dickrags wouldn't it? The fact that in our culture the mathematics is "short skirt = she wants the d, even if she doesn't know it yet" is really quite sad. Same thing with not being able to expect to be able to wear what you want without having some awful repercussion as a result. It's not even 1 inch hemlines like you say; perfectly reasonable clubbing clothing still results in this whole "she's gagging for it" deal.

 

That's what "rape culture" is to me. I hate it when people get all extremist, but you can't deny that there is this semi-acceptance of assault if we arbitrarily decide the victim is somehow deserving of it via their wardrobe, their attitude, hell, even the amount of make up they wear. Fact is, even if a person goes out wearing the equivalent of a teatowel and some dental floss, they shouldn't have to fear for their safety because men can't control themselves (which I think isn't true anyway; just another excuse).

[Keepbro]

I don't agree with the above statement as its wishful thinking to think that the world is a perfect place with no problems and everyone is nice to each other. If I walk into a seedy bar, buy everyone drinks, act a toff and show off a massive billfold of cash and then get mugged upon leaving then everyone would say I was the idiot for doing that. Admittedly the situations are different as one is sexually motivated and the other is financial but then a key problem is that sexual assault happens to women 99/100 times more than men.

Strangely I think a problem with modern feminist theory is that it has made women feel more empowered but paradoxically in more danger because of their empowerement. Men are still men and women are still women and although values have changed politically and socially, biologically they are exactly as they always have been.

[Kitt Frostpaws]

What ever happened to this thing called "Self control"?

Am I the only one who remembers that?

[Keepbro]

Sure but self-control could also mean having the self-control not to flash a billfold in a dodgy bar or wear a mini-skirt that leaves little to the imagination.

Works both ways.

[Kitt Frostpaws]

Sure but self-control could also mean having the self-control not to flash a billfold in a dodgy bar or wear a mini-skirt that leaves little to the imagination.

Works both ways.

 

You need to stop counteracting all of my arguments, I'm running out pretty fast.

[Rathlord]

I think the "just because they're wearing provocative clothes doesn't mean they're trying to be provocative" argument is a little bit false. It's like wearing a shirt in the darkest parts of Detroit that says "I like it when you don't stop when I scream stop" and then being surprised when you're sexually assaulted. Does it make it right for people to do that? Absolutely not. But is it still moronic to go out dressed like that? Absolutely.

 

Did you know there are actually laws in the US against trying to tempt people into robbing your house and then attacking them? This is kind of a similar circumstance in a way. Not that I'm saying that women dress like that to get raped, but there is a certain amount of responsibility you should take for your own dress and behavior.

 

If girls or women don't have the ability to figure out for themselves that their provocative clothes are provocative, they should be under the care of a legal guardian. If the guardian has let them go out in a dangerous situation wearing that kind of clothes, they should be held responsible for that as well; if not by the law, then at the least by their family and friends.

[Marinus]

Not to bash Muslims in general, but I've heard more than a few Muslims make a similar argument about veils. Of course an unveiled woman doesn't ask to be raped, but a responsible woman wears a veil. Who gets to decide what's provocative, and should women start wearing veils because some thing unveiled women are asking for it?

 

I kinda do see the point about provocative clothing, but I don't think we should facilitate that type of nonsense at all, and work on creating a society were a woman can go everywhere butt-naked if she want, without fearing baboons who don't understand the basic principle of consent. If one suspects a woman is asking for "it", and one thinks they're the one who should give "it"to her, one can remove any doubt by asking her if she want "it". Anyone who doesn't get that, is a danger to society and should be removed from it.

[DrummerKidJack]

 

I kinda do see the point about provocative clothing, but I don't think we should facilitate that type of nonsense at all, and work on creating a society were a woman can go everywhere butt-naked if she want, without fearing baboons who don't understand the basic principle of consent. If one suspects a woman is asking for "it", and one thinks they're the one who should give "it"to her, one can remove any doubt by asking her if she want "it". Anyone who doesn't get that, is a danger to society and should be removed from it.

Pretty much sums up my view perfectly, but I also understand the impracticality of expecting such a society.

 

Basically, assume there are rapers because there are rapers, but wouldn't it be nice if there weren't.

 

EDIT: Interesting study regarding why we do still need feminism (and minority scholarships, for that matter); stereotype threat and it's genuine effect on performance and self concept:

http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.org/bibliography_davies_spencer_steele.html

[Marinus]

Pretty much sums up my view perfectly, but I also understand the impracticality of expecting such a society.

 

 

Rape will probably always exist, but I think we can come (and actually have come) a long way, and of course the impossibility of reaching an ideal doesn't imply we should we shouldn't try to get as close as possible. Not all that long ago rape was more or less considered as (serious) property crime and no crime at all if the "right" person (usually the husband) was doing the raping. Women who went out without a chaperon where asking for "it" etc. etc. Nowadays on many public beaches in the Western world (and maybe some other places I don't know of), women can indeed go topless, and most men understand that they're still not asking for it. Yes, there are rapists but the last thing we should do is pretend there's mitigating circumstances for rape.

 

Rape cultures do exist. Cultures in which a woman can walk around in a portable tent all she likes, but may find herself under a pile of gang rape for the slightest transgression anyway. If she's lucky she's "just" raped, and if not she's consequently sentenced to be beaten to a bloody pulp because of being a slut. I would like to stay away from that as far as I possibly can.

[DrummerKidJack]

 Yes, there are rapists but the last thing we should do is pretend there's mitigating circumstances for rape.

We agree good sir.

[tomga1]

My experience with men and women in the work force has generally been that male dominated businesses tend to employ more men and pay those men slightly higher wages whilst women dominated businesses tend to be far more ruthless and strict with regards to the rules but also more generous and flexible with benefits and perks.

 

I'm fairly sure that you'll find that rape in any culture is considered completely immoral in any society but yes I do feel that parents are asking for trouble if they encourage their 15 year old daughter to go to a party dressed like they are attending a BDSM convention. Look at Rihanna or Beyonce or Lord Gaga. Of course situations are all unique but to quote a country saying "The hounds only start baying when they see a fox."

 

As a Catholic I find abortion to be inherently wrong. As a realist I find bringing a human being into a life of pain, misery and possible congenital defects to be inherently wrong. I find that I can live happily in the middle ground. But I would be severely pissed off if my missus had an abortion without telling me.

 

Holy fuck. A catholic realist!

[Dr. Strangelove]

1. I think a lot of it is caused by different career choices, rather than discrimination. When a business puts out a "help wanted" ad, they don't have a different pay tier for male and female applicants. Rather, men and women think, feel, and act in different manners due to brain chemistry and structure; which tends to make certain fields more attractive to them. For instance, all of the women in my family are college educated, two being university professors. They all chose to work with children; as elementary school teachers, a vice principal, OB/GYN, and pediatrician. The college-educated men in my family chose industrial farming, emergency medicine, law enforcement, and the military.

2. The West is the absolute furtherest from an actual "rape culture" that you can find on this planet. The slighest accusation of rape can ruin someone's life, reputation, and career, even if they are exonerated later on. Compare that to, say, the United Arab Emirates, where a victim is required in most jurisdictions to present a minimum of four male Muslim witnesses in order for an arrest to be made.

3. I used to be "pro-choice," but being around Planned Parenthood members and the left-wing in general made me do a 180 on the subject. It's the killing of human life, and like all killings should not be an act taken lightly or performed when not absolutely necessary.  If we can get artifical womb technology online, one could transplant the developing child from the mother into an "incubator," avoiding the problem entirely. There's scads of people out there trying to adopt right now, and the birth rate of 1st World nations is reaching dangerously low levels as it is.
Until then, I'd prefer that only cases of rape, incest, and stuff like ecotopic pregnancies be regularly performed. With the widespread availabiltity of birth control there isn't really much of an excuse not to use it and avoid the whole issue to begin with.

[Marinus]

There's scads of people out there trying to adopt right now,

 

 

If that's true it's due to flaws in the adoption system, and not because there's a shortage of kids waiting for adoption. For the US alone the number is around 150.000, and since the US is a well to do nation, you can bet that it's worse in most other places. Whatever the adoption system needs, more unwanted children is not one of those things. We've got millions and millions of those 

 

 

http://www.adoptamericanetwork.org/waiting-children/

[Keepbro]

I remember reading somewhere that the US adoption and social services system is rampantly corrupt and works hand in hand with big business to screw families over.

[Tomwa]

I'd just like to add that as an unwanted child myself I'm pro-life, not only did my biological mother not want me she's made threats against my life, damaged me through drinking in her pregnancy (causing vision impairment, asthma, and a host of other issues), but she also did the same to my brothers and sisters.

 

But just because she didn't love me didn't mean nobody did, I was adopted and found love elsewhere (Though family tree projects in school were never fun).

[Aricane]

I'd just like to add that as an unwanted child myself I'm pro-life, not only did my biological mother not want me she's made threats against my life, damaged me through drinking in her pregnancy (causing vision impairment, asthma, and a host of other issues), but she also did the same to my brothers and sisters.

 

This. Angers. Me. Partially because women can screw up their kids life and never, ever be held responsible for it.

 

I used to think it was womens own choice. But three kids later - hell no. I knew a goddamn 35 year old mom who started to smoke cigarettes and drink AFTER she recently got pregnant. That's a former friend now. I can't cope with it. It's like knowingly commiting a crime you cannot be judged for, because the consequences of your actions only affect people in their later life.