Mining/Metalworking/Fishing

[Xunzul]

So for you rathlord is more important for the developers Muldraugh and the people who live there of to making money with project zomboid in the world.... so this game is for the fun of Muldraugh people to revive city life in a zomboid world.... this game is not for world players you saying... but only for stone age Muldraugh people. This morning i wake up with the intent of buy this game, after reading you i change my mind, so if a developers or an admin don't come to shut your mouth i'll never buy this game, cos if you're right then i don't like this game.(I think you are a liar, developers create a game and put on market to do money with it not to make you happe a Muldraugh citizen).

 

People MINECRAFT don't invented the crafting and metalworking, it still on all respectable rpg game, from ultima online, WoW, Daoc, SWG etc... cos it is a reality not a fantasy!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stove-Company-1500-Wood-Coal-Burning-139000-BTU-Furnace-2500-sq-ft-/301057794110

 

Leave the gas or other type of combustion materials out from your mind, im intend a metalwork as in the iron age would do, wood, coal, air, no more needs.

[EnigmaGrey]

So for you rathlord is more important for the developers Muldraugh and the people who live there of to making money with project zomboid in the world.... so this game is for the fun of Muldraugh people to revive city life in a zomboid world.... this game is not for world players you saying... but only for stone age Muldraugh people. This morning i wake up with the intent of buy this game, after reading you i change my mind, so if a developers or an admin don't come to shut your mouth i'll never buy this game, cos if you're right this game is very booring.

This thread contains more than just Rathlord.

The game is meant to be built around the "common" man, rather than the intellectual or the eXtreme hobbiest with the resources to indulge in professional wheelwrighting and barrel making. Does that mean there can't be some give and take, that there can't for example be doctors in the game who know how to work with wood? It doesn't, so stop acting like Rathlord's opinion is the only one that matters in this discussion -- our opinions are about equal in terms of what gets added to the game.

[Walther]

whelp, I'm pretty late to this party but if you all don't mind, I'll share my non-handy-man opinion.

 

working with metal, metalplates, welding and stuff could be done by lots of people. The outcome of this act would differ a lot due to the lack of skills and knowledge in this area but i guess everyone has seen someone cut metal or weld metal...

 

forging on the other hand is way to complicated. mining ore and forging it into a sword or even a nice plate would be way too complicated for a normal citizen to achieve. and even if you had a book that told you how to do it, you'd probaply end up with lots of inclusions of dirt or whatever in your metal that would make it improper, no?

 

I'm more for repairing/fixing/stabilizing stuff with metal but really making metal from scratch seems very hard and is something I'd never do. ther is so much metal out there in the town that could be used for whatever you imagine... cars, pipes, cable, most of the stuff in a workshop etc. you can work with that stuff and weld you some stuff

[Xunzul]

 

This thread contains more than just Rathlord.

The game is meant to be built around the "common" man, rather than the intellectual or the eXtreme hobbiest with the resources to indulge in professional wheelwrighting and barrel making. Does that mean there can't be some give and take, that there can't for example be doctors in the game who know how to work with wood? It doesn't, so stop acting like Rathlord's opinion is the only one that matters in this discussion -- our opinions are about equal in terms of what gets added to the game.

 

 

 

So there's 2 point of interest now.

 

1. Definition of "common" man.

 

Nobody define himself or herself common cos each one have own abilities and traits, for this reason at the start of game you can choose different professions and drive own charater in the way you wish. So we are all the same "common" or we are all different... if the game want all characters be the same, then delete the profession selector. Delete the shops in the city, the medical centers, and the schools with the farms. Only houses for scavange will be avaiable cos in Muldraugh the commons know only to breath and fight.(Sorry for my manners, i take the point sometime with irony too)

 

2. Metalworks and Crafting is a Minecraft invention and it is impossibile in real life? (WTF?!?!?!)

 

Of course not.

 

The reason for this discussion is only one, either if a side won't admit it. They want find a "reason" to not make improvements on crafting and metalworking in game cos they dislike it, so they want convert the possibile in impossibile. If the discussion was built in more mautre way was end 3 pages ago with only this words, "I like it", "I dislike it", but the likes was more than the dislikes, some mages appear here to convert the possible in impossibile, and that make me angry and i don't want be angry for be taken as stupid.

 

So if people and developers like to make this improvement is a good thing, if not is the same, no problem for me. I suggest my "likes" nothing more, nothing less.

[EnigmaGrey]

You'll need to re-read my post, as I said absolutely nothing like "Metalworks and Crafting is a Minecraft invention and it is impossibile in real life."

I don't appreciate conspiracy theories, either. None of us are against you, personally.

There's no need to remove the professions selector to make the game more about common people, as most common people have a specific kind of employment that defines their skillset and (unfortunately) their interests.

[harakka]

The reason for this discussion is only one, either if a side won't admit it. They want find a "reason" to not make improvements on crafting and metalworking in game cos they dislike it, so they want convert the possibile in impossibile.

Please don't make an assumption like this. I've still been reading the thread, even though I haven't felt like posting after the first page. No-one has said anything to justify this assumption. As far as I can tell most people have agreed that crafting and metalworking could and should be improved. There are specific things people here disagree with, such as how and which parts of metalworking should be implemented, and in which manner. No-one here is saying they dislike crafting and metalworking.

 

Since tempers have already flared, it would be beneficial for everyone posting to take care to word their posts in as specific, constructive, and calm manner as they can. Before replying to someone, take a deep breath and re-read the post you're replying to. Are you replying to what the person said, or what you think they said?

[Xunzul]

My apologies EnigmaGrey and harakka i was put out of the road with my mind from the words of rathlord, is not an excuse for me but, i lack patience when low grade arguments was put in my eyes and ears and i start to use hard words and making irony. I know what you talk about, i have only to re-enter in the road side with my mind, have patience with me please.

[Connall]

 

 

This thread contains more than just Rathlord.

The game is meant to be built around the "common" man, rather than the intellectual or the eXtreme hobbiest with the resources to indulge in professional wheelwrighting and barrel making. Does that mean there can't be some give and take, that there can't for example be doctors in the game who know how to work with wood? It doesn't, so stop acting like Rathlord's opinion is the only one that matters in this discussion -- our opinions are about equal in terms of what gets added to the game.

 

 

 

So there's 2 point of interest now.

 

1. Definition of "common" man.

 

Nobody define himself or herself common cos each one have own abilities and traits, for this reason at the start of game you can choose different professions and drive own charater in the way you wish. So we are all the same "common" or we are all different... if the game want all characters be the same, then delete the profession selector. Delete the shops in the city, the medical centers, and the schools with the farms. Only houses for scavange will be avaiable cos in Muldraugh the commons know only to breath and fight.(Sorry for my manners, i take the point sometime with irony too)

 

2. Metalworks and Crafting is a Minecraft invention and it is impossibile in real life? (WTF?!?!?!)

 

Of course not.

 

The reason for this discussion is only one, either if a side won't admit it. They want find a "reason" to not make improvements on crafting and metalworking in game cos they dislike it, so they want convert the possibile in impossibile. If the discussion was built in more mautre way was end 3 pages ago with only this words, "I like it", "I dislike it", but the likes was more than the dislikes, some mages appear here to convert the possible in impossibile, and that make me angry and i don't want be angry for be taken as stupid.

 

So if people and developers like to make this improvement is a good thing, if not is the same, no problem for me. I suggest my "likes" nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

When we discuss the idea of the common man, it is never on the basis of any one individual. The idea of the "common man" is more about a collection of thousands of people, if not hundreds of thousands, and generally figuring out what knowledge is shared among them.

 

For example I get a group of people and ask them what skills they posses. Just about everybody would say something along the lines of reading, writing, how to use a computer etc. You get the idea. Now of course there will be some among them that will say they have advanced knowledge of computers or can shoot the wings off a fly at 2 miles. This doesn't mean that this is shared amongst the group though. These are the unique individuals within this group who have this knowledge, so their knowledge is not included with what the "common man's" knowledge would be. Project Zomboid does kind of reflect this idea in the fact that the person is basically the common man, but can assign unique identifiers to that person, such as the profession and traits. So when we talk about common man knowledge we're not talking about a singular common man. We're talking about the knowledge of people from a shared collection.

 

As for the minecraft thing, I don't think I have to argue that at all. Please stop bringing up arguments no-one is presenting despite how frustrated you might be. If you find Rathlord's point as infuriating as you say, then debate the points with him, rather than taking some side road of having no need to share your knowledge.

[harakka]

As for the minecraft thing, I don't think I have to argue that at all.

 

Minecraft has been mentioned a few times. I believe the context for this is that people who have mentioned it don't want a very abstract, gamey crafting system where one can, for example, craft 3 bars and piece of wood into a sword, but something that better approximates the process and amount of work that would go into it in real life. It is unclear if anyone has actually argued in favor of a Minecraft-style system.

 

I don't mean to use gamey as a disparaging word btw. Imagine an axis of realism, where on the other end is some kind of Minecraft-style highly abstracted crafting system, and on the other end is Metalworking / Woodworking / Pottery / Electrician / Surgery Simulator 2014. This is a very long axis, with space for many different type of systems.

 

Everyone has their own idea of where the different game mechanics of PZ, such as crafting, healthcare and construction should be on that axis. I don't know if the developers themselves are very clear on all of it either. I remember back in the mists of history the devs spoke for trying to make everything fairly realistic while still being fun to play, but in practice that is a pretty nebulous concept.

[Rapidcore]

@Connall

For GOD sake man, stop derailing the thread in a million ways. Do not try to use mind made statistics as facts to sustain your argument that has little to no importance to the exact issue at hand. Have you ever made that inquiry that you speak of? Have you ever went to a 27 year old, born in the rural area guy that doesn't spend 24 h at the computer and asked him 100 questions about his life and knowledge? And did you follow up that study with another 999 people to make the most minimalistic acceptable average statistic? If you didn't PLEASE DO NOT pull the numbers from your ars because they would just be called fraudulent.

You don't even realise that the word "common" is misused so badly that would make someone in the know cry. There is no such thing as common knowledge because people do not have the same life experiences and more importantly understand and define them differently. That is the reason the law books are so thick and many, because in them you will see every term/word defined in order to fill the gaps that those difference in human mind interpretation create. So common knowledge can not exist, you can only speak of similar knowledge, but even then you should be mindful of that terms connotation. 

 

Also, if you decide to reply to this post please do this in a good manner because if you only use it to derail the thread more I will not bother to reply.

 

@harakka and Enigma Grey

Hope to see you guys more active because it would be a pleasure debating points with more people that can offer good criticism Cheers

[Kirrus]

@Connall

For GOD sake man, stop derailing the thread in a million ways. Do not try to use mind made statistics as facts to sustain your argument that has little to no importance to the exact issue at hand. Have you ever made that inquiry that you speak of? Have you ever went to a 27 year old, born in the rural area guy that doesn't spend 24 h at the computer and asked him 100 questions about his life and knowledge? And did you follow up that study with another 999 people to make the most minimalistic acceptable average statistic? If you didn't PLEASE DO NOT pull the numbers from your ars because they would just be called fraudulent.

You don't even realise that the word "common" is misused so badly that would make someone in the know cry. There is no such thing as common knowledge because people do not have the same life experiences and more importantly understand and define them differently. That is the reason the law books are so thick and many, because in them you will see every term/word defined in order to fill the gaps that those difference in human mind interpretation create. So common knowledge can not exist, you can only speak of similar knowledge, but even then you should be mindful of that terms connotation. 

 

Also, if you decide to reply to this post please do this in a good manner because if you only use it to derail the thread more I will not bother to reply.

 

Rapidcore, please keep it lovely there.

[EnigmaGrey]

@Connall

For GOD sake man, stop derailing the thread in a million ways.

and

Also, if you decide to reply to this post please do this in a good manner because if you only use it to derail the thread more I will not bother to reply.

If you have to say this, it's time to report the post to a moderator for us to determine if there's some form of action necessary to be taken. It's not your place to correct the behavior of other members of this site. (This is not an admission that Connall is in the wrong.)

 

Do not try to use mind made statistics as facts to sustain your argument that has little to no importance to the exact issue at hand. Have you ever made that inquiry that you speak of? Have you ever went to a 27 year old, born in the rural area guy that doesn't spend 24 h at the computer and asked him 100 questions about his life and knowledge? And did you follow up that study with another 999 people to make the most minimalistic acceptable average statistic? If you didn't PLEASE DO NOT pull the numbers from your ars because they would just be called fraudulent.

All I can say is from my experience in rural areas is the main occupation of people there is some basic repair work and hunting, on top of farming. Much of my extended family fits this mold, not to mention their acquittance.

For example, in the entire pool of people I've known in my lifetime, only two have had basic smithing skills (my grandfather and the guy he learned it from). Most could, semi-accurately, fire a shotgun or rifle, however.

In the end, we only have our own life experiences as justification for our assumptions. Let's be clear, very little about this discussion is factual and empirical. It's judgement made from our own perspective.

 

You don't even realise that the word "common" is misused so badly that would make someone in the know cry. There is no such thing as common knowledge because people do not have the same life experiences and more importantly understand and define them differently. That is the reason the law books are so thick and many, because in them you will see every term/word defined in order to fill the gaps that those difference in human mind interpretation create. So common knowledge can not exist, you can only speak of similar knowledge or similar experiences, but even then you should be mindful of that terms connotation.

And when you treat those people as a group, you can find trends. If this were not the case, all areas of endeavor that rely on statistics would fail.

[Xunzul]

 

As for the minecraft thing, I don't think I have to argue that at all.

 

Minecraft has been mentioned a few times. I believe the context for this is that people who have mentioned it don't want a very abstract, gamey crafting system where one can, for example, craft 3 bars and piece of wood into a sword, but something that better approximates the process and amount of work that would go into it in real life. It is unclear if anyone has actually argued in favor of a Minecraft-style system.

 

I don't mean to use gamey as a disparaging word btw. Imagine an axis of realism, where on the other end is some kind of Minecraft-style highly abstracted crafting system, and on the other end is Metalworking / Woodworking / Pottery / Electrician / Surgery Simulator 2014. This is a very long axis, with space for many different type of systems.

 

Everyone has their own idea of where the different game mechanics of PZ, such as crafting, healthcare and construction should be on that axis. I don't know if the developers themselves are very clear on all of it either. I remember back in the mists of history the devs spoke for trying to make everything fairly realistic while still being fun to play, but in practice that is a pretty nebulous concept.

 

 

The matter of time is another question and i agree with you. But for example if for craft a sword need 7 days of ingame time, making it piece to piece, that's good for me. So the the question now is "how" instead "if", we're at a good point of discussion cos that mean there's will for people here to have crafting skill improved in more wide area. Im happy of that.

[Rathlord]

No such thing as common knowledge. Whelp, this thread has just crossed te border between fact and fiction. Welcome to the surreal, friends!

[Connall]

@Connall

For GOD sake man, stop derailing the thread in a million ways. Do not try to use mind made statistics as facts to sustain your argument that has little to no importance to the exact issue at hand. Have you ever made that inquiry that you speak of? Have you ever went to a 27 year old, born in the rural area guy that doesn't spend 24 h at the computer and asked him 100 questions about his life and knowledge? And did you follow up that study with another 999 people to make the most minimalistic acceptable average statistic? If you didn't PLEASE DO NOT pull the numbers from your ars because they would just be called fraudulent.

You don't even realise that the word "common" is misused so badly that would make someone in the know cry. There is no such thing as common knowledge because people do not have the same life experiences and more importantly understand and define them differently. That is the reason the law books are so thick and many, because in them you will see every term/word defined in order to fill the gaps that those difference in human mind interpretation create. So common knowledge can not exist, you can only speak of similar knowledge, but even then you should be mindful of that terms connotation. 

 

Also, if you decide to reply to this post please do this in a good manner because if you only use it to derail the thread more I will not bother to reply.

 

 

My aim is not to derail this thread, I'm answering the question or discussion point he has put forth. He said: 

 

 

So there's 2 point of interest now.

 

1. Definition of "common" man.

 

I'm continuing a point of discussion, I'm in no way derailing this thread. Perhaps I'm blindly in the wrong here and I just can't see it, but I'm continuing a line of discussion and not derailing in my responses.

 

Besides that you are extrapolating what I mean, I'm just trying to discuss what (at the very least I believe) to be the definition of the "common" man. I'm not saying literally asking people, I'm just trying to say that when you get a set of people and somehow knew their skills you can extrapolate some common knowledge, that if you were to go up to someone and say "Hey do you know x?" then there's a high chance they will know this.

 

It's going to vary from place to place of course, culture to culture, there's no such thing as like the true universalised common man. Since different places adjust for different needs. Yet there is such a thing as a common man. I also don't believe that common is being misused, I think it's being used for the right thing, but in any case I guess we differ in this regard.

 

 

In any case that's me out of this thread now. I feel if I keep continuing into this discussion I'm just going to regret it and I certainly don't want that to happen. It feels like the thread has lost sight of what the original discussion was about, and seems to be becoming rather volatile in nature. If anyone was offended, or became upset by my words please understand that was not my intent, and when I wrote them I was only trying to argue a point. I've argued my point, I offered a solution and have had to continue arguing a point and am becoming increasingly frustrated by it.

 

If there are any doubts about what I've said you can find it here, if something still seems to be unclear (which at this point it hopefully shouldn't be) then feel free to message me and I'll clear it up further. I'm just tired of arguing this, tired of the insults or being equated to something I'm not. At this point though I would appreciate it if you didn't quote or reply to my arguments, since I won't be here to discuss them further.

[Rapidcore]

No such thing as common knowledge. Whelp, this thread has just crossed te border between fact and fiction. Welcome to the surreal, friends!

 

"Common knowledge" is an illusion created by the accord of the people. It is just a logic conclusion for things that have many similar characteristics. That is why a man can be described as a "common man" but also be referred as a individual, as a unique. That is also why 5 people will explain things in 5 different ways even if they were taught by the same tutor. That is why 3 painters with the same skill, knowledge and tools will paint differently even if they were asked to paint a common object, for example a vase. 

 

The topic at hand people should not be why or why not a system of the sort should be implemented in the game because this decision is reserved to the development team. I think by now the topic of realism has already been covered and we can at least established that it would be neither more or less realistic then one man building a two storey house. I think that it would be more fruitful if we are to debate, as pointed above in what manner should this system be implemented in the game if it would ever be implemented, what would you exclude from it and how would you balance it out in order to suit the games flavor best.

[EnigmaGrey]

This is not the lock this thread needs; It's the lock this thread deserves.