Jump to content

Variable Zed Grouping


bambi

Recommended Posts

20210910051929_1.thumb.png.0d9c75a0cfa18656cae21feeca1c91c4.png

Current grouping and distribution is way too predictable. The default settings always have zeds eventually huddling up in little circles equal distance apart. In the image above I can reasonably determine that I will encounter almost the exact same thing no matter where I go. It's not always this obvious, but moments like this are too common and completely break the illusion for me.

 

Here is a simple illustration of the current grouping settings, and a rough example of my proposed grouping:

grouping.png.31bae6816de7d846c8d87c2a695081f6.png

 

Instead of grouping settings being static values, they should be variable: E.g. "Group Size: 20-40", "Group Radius: 3-10". The percentage of zeds that form groups should also be configurable.

 

Same could be done for redistribution/respawn settings. Zeds by default always move to fill gaps on an impeccable 12-hr schedule. You'd think their movements would be a little more sporadic, unless they are meant to operate like some kind of larger organism/hive mind in PZ lore.

When I clear an area and return only to find a group of identical size has taken it's place, I know that they didn't just happen to stumble into the area or that I missed them, it was just the redistribution time ticked over and all the zeds in the vicinity moved deliberately and swiftly to fill a gap on the map. How do they know?! :o

 

Simply by being able to set a variable schedule would somewhat solve this issue by injecting some uncertainty as to how much time you have until the next migration, but even better would be to configure the percentage of zeds that redistribute as well. It may impact game balance but if you could set it anywhere from 50-150% then zeds would be way more erratic in their distribution cycles, potentially overrunning certain areas until the next cycle moves them again, or perhaps only redistributing a fraction this time around.

 

Ideally I'd like zeds to group together much more organically, while still retaining gaps in their numbers to sneak through. Thick hordes and small flocks of varying distance apart, mobile "patrol groups" shambling slowly down city streets, stragglers that break off from herds to join new ones or just wander aimlessly...

I'm aware that a lot of this is easier said than done given how zeds are loaded in-game, but I just wish it wasn't so consistent across the board.

 

Would also be great if we could make the grouping develop and change over time, Sandbox+ already has this feature among a few others that are much needed in the base game, like varying zed speeds and having multi-hit tied to strength and other factors.

 

Thanks for continuing to make this game amazing, seriously!

Edited by bambi
Added grouping illustration
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes.

 

I have for a few months now turned grouping off. Please do try it for a game and see how it affects the gameplay.

 

It feels allot better having every Z being roamers since groups are utter garbage. The idea that Z's bunch up like this makes no sense! I mean sure if we had some Left4Dead Screamer or SOMETHING that makes sense why they form groups and stick together then ok. Fresh dead Z's being the leaders? Just something to make the scenario believable in the made up Zombie world.

 

But normal PZ is just over run by groups of hooligans! I found the gameplay to be just boring. Made up crap. But that is just my experience. 

 

I remember when I started to play around with sandbox settings (and overdoing the Z count) having big groups form neatly on farm fields outside of Riverwood. Having my character starving, depressed, tired and crawling around this big hoards of Z trying to find a house to sleep in. And when crying and feeling hopeless finding a houses surrounded by groups of Z's. Trying to take out groups of Z just to SLEEP. It was so ridicules! XD  But to see this groups clearly form was really distracting. And in general terms taking on a group of Z is booring. It turns into a "peek a bo" with Zombies! Just to lure a few away from there group leader. It makes ZERO sense for that to be the core gameplay loop. 

 

Turning grouping off and having a balanced amount of Z. (about normal pop) feels really good! You do not play "peek a bo" but instead you fight real Z's! The groups comes from roamers joining in to fight you! Not from a random Z being a leader. O deer leader! 

 

If you get caught with a bunch of Z's and have to retreat from Z's, they form natural temporary groups on there own where you got away from them. Overtime they are going to spread out and walk about. But it feels organic and real! Not made up game rules for no good reason. You can much easier fight a area clear of Z. But it feels fair and your still able to be caught out and having to run from a "group" that form natural by the sound you make fighting. (I run Tough Zombies, so it takes time to kill Z's so other ones join in)

 

But yes grouping system is predictable and in general just not fun. They are kind of needed I can understand in some scenarios, but I have just turned it off and are much happier for it. I find it much more exiting and fun to have all Z's roamers. They still act as they should when your caught, hoards forms to get you and leave behind groups that stick around for quite a while in the area you got away from them. But they are not sticking together for no apparent reason without being in combat with a player or going after a house alarm etc. Just wonderful and a better experience for me anyways. Just having enough Z population to not make the world feel empty and bam! Fun.  They roam around and you can never really know where they are! They just roam around! Searching for food! Not a cattle group standing around eating the grass on the ground.

 

Sandbox <3

If anything there just needs to be a way to select how many groups should form. So for me I had only had VERY few groups form and kept most Z's roamers. Resent Zombie render optimizations makes any increased resource needs to disable groups be canceled out. :) The game handles rendering/processing bunch of zombies at ones very well nowadays I must say. Even if a alarm go off and a hole city is going after you the game do not really crap out if you got a descent mid range gaming pc. (AAA new titles mid range)

Edited by Turbo50
English
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Grouping off definitely feels more immersive and has an eerie feel to it, but in my opinion spreads them out a little too thin and uniformly and only works well with insane pops. I do still like grouping as a mechanic and want to retain it in my game to a good extent. Actually setting the percentage of zeds that form groups would be incredible, giving us the best of both worlds. Perhaps also having a chance for groups to disperse or even merge with others after a certain timeframe if that were possible.

 

Problem with zero grouping is that the zed's greatest strength is their numbers but the more spread out they are the easier they are to isolate. Also makes it much harder to observe gaps to sneak through undetected, and forces you to always carve a path through them which can get tedious.

EDIT: Added another image to main post to show what I mean.

 

The idea behind them forming groups is that zeds should be attracted to noise made by other zeds. Knowing this you'd naturally expect groups to form and even merge together occasionally, but as you say they just cling to their randomly determined leader and strictly keep to their group limit whilst deliberately making an effort to avoid other groups, it's just bizarre...

Edited by bambi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good. So you have tried it at least. Can not expect it to be a obvious thing to try you know.

 

So like I said. I personally want it like that. (Zombies, but not to much or bunch of groups standing around) To high pollution and it is tedious. But I do not enjoy unrealistic amount of Z's and enjoy having a very natural random population around me. That is just me. I want Z's that are hard to kill and a scenario that make sense. Just me? Do not think so.

 

I still think there are a valid and needed spread like shown in your Variable image. But it dose not need to be groups. Some of it yes but really it is more about having enough population and enough randomness. But not to the point of having to slaughter everything to just move around. There need to be a very VERY fine balance. And variety in how you play to not make it stale and boring. Right now groups have nothing but stale boring combat. And no groups have the effect of a chance of emptiness or overcrowding. Groups are a tool to fix that problem! Hoards can be a off-screen thing or a event like the helicopter or gunshots/house alarms etc etc.

 

I brought up the point of how no grouping is almost more fun then the current group system implement right now. Since if you or someone else did not even think to try it you miss out on what groups do negatively to the game right now. "Sneaking" around hoards playing "peek a boo" to lure out Z's from groups are just not fun. But I still find it fun to do it when the groups are natural and I'm not just abusing group sizes and sight lines that I know are not going to be broken up since they GROUP together and do not randomly roam.

 

You really just abuse the group system at that point if that's the gameplay to strive for. Since all the sudden it is all about groups and getting away from them. In a game like this where they are programed as a "group" we as players play the game as if the enemy are groups. Even now it should be the Z's and not the game system we fight. 

 

Having a feeling of what not having stupid groups hanging around doing nothing feels like, well it should be a part of the discussion. Since then we can bring up what kind of changes are needed to the grouping system to make it not so ridged as it is right now.  There need to be allot of wanderers compared to groups! Or else we still got groups that only add population to the street corner bullies. It is even more rewarding to sneak around natural roamers that "naturally" group and ungroup. It is fun to have groups but it should be natural or there being a REAL leader that you can spot and know why the Z's are grouping up for. Or else be random and flexible/natural randomness. It can not just be groups. They need to avoid looking like game mechanics and be just Z's. 

 

And give sandbox settings to fine tune it ofc! But yes the grouping system needs to be more flexible and just not looks like thief gangs.

It really boils down to changing how population works and making groups less obvious and much rarer. It should not be just zombies walking around in "groups". They should just happen to be staying close to each other and that makes it a group. Not that it is just a big enemy force that spawned on the map. If it even makes sense to anyone reading? 

 

But as I said I understand and do think that grouping is a necessary tool to heighten tension and fun. It should just be better. Get good more or less. I just gave up on grouping and found it being much more enjoyable to harden the Z's up and live with a little to few Z's sometimes. Better then street corner thugs XD  Same thing with fire spread many months ago! Before they improved that system I had it turned off since it made no sense for fire to spread the way it did before. Same with the current Z grouping system, just not reasonable or fun to have turned on.

 

Btw. The work they did to the fire system spread blew my expectations! I had called it a lost cause and given up on fires in PZ since that whould totally never be improved on. (oj, I was wrong) And it is really fun to see and hear that it basically are individuals working on the game systems. Imagen a game company having real individual people and such working and doing grate stuff??? #sarcasm

 

23 hours ago, bambi said:

The idea behind them forming groups is that zeds should be attracted to noise made by other zeds. Knowing this you'd naturally expect groups to form and even merge together occasionally.

This I at first thought too. But ones I did that hilariously crappy run in Riverwood I relished how stupid that is. They are smarten then that. What I'm saying right now is not to be taken as having to be simulated in the game. But just how Z's would react and why zombie lore even make sense in the first place. (Walking Dead and the like)

 

 

They do not bump into each other like they did not see each other. They do not try and eat a other Z. They know perfectly well what other Z's sound or act like. They do not run up to a wandering Z thinking they are food for the most part. But if you as a player get close enough they notice or smell? You! That is food! Ones they get close to a other Z they have no reason to stick around. Or else they should be going around in the woods hunting birds as they make sounds. No. They are smarter then standing around other Z's. They are hunters! But they know what they are after.

 

If there was a fresh Z they might stick around being confused why it smells food around this Z's. Or they might group around Z's if they think that's the best chance to find food. (following a migration hoard making allot of sounds from walking and being something huge moving)

 

But a group of Z's just being passive in a group? I do think they are rather going to spot something moving and head that way to search for food. Like a other Z for example away in the distance moving about. That is not what they do in game right now. But it makes more sense that a group that stand around allot are going to lose there people..? (bodies?) But a group moving or having something that draws them to stay. (fresh blood smell) they can form groups standing more or less around waiting to be feed. But else they are not going to enjoy standing around other Z's. If they are tired or not motivated to move they might stay. But really roaming pointlessly after food is more or less there thing. Not haning around outher Z's waiting on food to walk up to them. 

 

If we say a Z is stuck in a low food populated area (food sounds or just humans) and a big hoard of migrating Z's passes by it probably are going to join in due to the sound and huge movements going on. (explanation why we can have migration and big hoards move around the map)  Groups staying idle makes little sense. Groups going somewhere making sounds and actual movement happening makes sense. Yes they get tired and what not. But they most likely do not follow just a random Z around calling it there leader. They are individuals XD Not some cult! 

 

Really to think Z's are happy to stand around like cows is silly. Even if the sounds other Z's makes might be effective, it just makes no sense to be enough to keep them from roaming away from what they know is NOT food. You do not see Z's grouping around TV static or radios. It needs to be a car alarm or something FOOD related for them to stick around or act in any way. Investigating is there first goal since that is how they find FOOD. If food was not found they keep investigating until they are tired and stand around until they are curious agen to repeat the cycle. They need to have no stimulant to stay around other Z's. But if they find any reason to walk away they sure are going to roam. 

 

 

Agen. Groups are just a tool. Hoards are just a tool. A Zombie in the basic sense are just roamers. They are just made up fantasy. They either as individuals naturally form what we call hoards or groups. Or someone/we make them into groups/hoards. WE GOT THE POOOOWWWWERR!

Edited by Turbo50
English is stupid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...