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Player Stunlock


Fuzzy Wolfy

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To start, I want to make it clear that I have a tremendous amount of support for Zomboid and it's development team, you guys do great work and I have nothing but respect for all involved. That said, take this as a genuine bit of constructive criticism from a player with well-over a thousand hours in the game.

 

The stunlock players suffer when getting attacked by a zombie is not fun. It still happens in the 41.53 IWBUMS build.

 

I realize it's been said in the past that this is intended or, at least, a tolerated function of the game—a dangerous outcome to letting a zombie get too close;

 

image.png.65245ce0070abaf4da2efa74015c74c2.png

 

—And, to an extent, I agree. Unfortunately, this isn't the way to go about it.

 

I've lost a handful of characters to this bug and, typically, in situations that rightfully shouldn't have killed them outright. Whether the character was decently armored, well-prepared, or actively fleeing an encounter with just two or so zeds—I'm not shy about calling it quits and avoiding combat when it isn't necessary—only to get snagged by an automatic animation and have no input or choice but to sit and watch my character just repeatedly push or elbow a pair of zombies while they alternate getting chomps in. It's just... It's not great. It happens regardless of if from the front or the back, though the back tends to be more immediately and properly lethal. From the front, however, it just looks incredibly dumb.

 

My latest example fits perfectly in the above description; I was sneaking around in a low population area, still warily taking my time and clearing rooms before looting; mid-way through clearing the second story, I open a door and—bam—my character gets hugged on by a zombie, taking me by surprise and immediately prompting me to want to just run and make distance... But I couldn't. The two zombie in the room, as said, just took turns initiating the "push away" animation on my character, leaving me unable to back off, turn around, or do anything, really. For the first two attacks, I didn't get any damage, but then the scratches, bites, lacerations, and bites started slowly rolling in, and I just couldn't do anything. I had no control over the character whatsoever.

 

Half-way through that, I just quit to the main menu. I was stuck for a full twenty seconds, slowly getting damaged, and I just had no input whatsoever.

 

 

This isn't a case of me being unhappy because I lost or because my character died.

 

That happens.  That's Zomboid.

 

The issue stems from the game just deciding- Nope. You're done. Put the keyboard down. You can't do anything.

 

I would've accepted it if I were able to break off but, as a result of the surprise attack, I got cut or even outright bitten from being unable to defend myself from the second zombie. I would've accepted the price of the game successfully surprising me, but this was literally just an anti-climactic, full-to-dead, very buggy-looking death. Nothing about it was satisfying or dramatic. My character was just juggling two zombies in a doorway for half a minute and would've eventually just dropped dead.

 

 

Please. Fix this.

I don't care if the injury is guaranteed, just let the character break off at some point or get properly dragged down. Not the above.

Edited by Fuzzy Wolfy
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Two people grab you and take you by surprised.

 

You try to run but can’t.

 

Is this being stunlocked, or is this being held? There’s a limit to what can be shown through the animation system currently in ProjectZomboid, since we cannot lineup things like this at all, so the gap that may appear isn’t actually there as far as the game is concerned. You’re being grappled and mauled while you’re trying to turn and run. This, while not always clear, isn’t a bug.

 

The reason you go back and forth flailing, is your character has a chance to fend off attacks, and sometimes this happens multiple times in a row. That is a bug, at least visually. That’s probably fixable — just the downside there is sometimes it does let you escape despite looking “stupid,” so I’m not sure how much we’d want to fix that? A counter could be added to make sure you only get X strikes in Y time, ofc.

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At the current moment? It's being stunlocked. Not held.

 

It's a bug—maybe one the development team tolerates, but not one that seamlessly adds anything to, or compliments, gameplay.

 

What I'm unhappy with is the animation looping or being queued repeatedly without any opportunity for player input. Not that I died.

 

The game's code, as it is, already has functions in place that allow for greater odds of injury, like if the player is or isn't blocking, for example. Adding the above suggestion, wherein the player has a buffer between animations or has the "pulled down" animation initiated from getting attacked by more than one zed, simultaneously, would be relatively easy.*

 

* Obviously, it'd be more involved than the example below, but it'd still be a simplistic addition. I've not had an internal look at Zomboid since Build 39, so spaghetti code may make it more complicated, if present.

 

> Player.Player:LoadAnimation(game.Workspace.Animation);
>        wait(5)

 

No one who's complained about this issue has asked for a new, special animation for the above situation. Some either want it to flow more organically with gameplay, and others just would rather not see it happen, period. I'm in the former camp, wherein I'd be fine with it being an instant-kill, same as being attacked from behind... Just not this ping-pong match that goes on for a full minute. That ruins immersion, is frustrating to watch, and honestly demeans the good work the Zomboid crew have done with the animation overhaul.

 

I'll take my comeuppance for not being careful enough, but this doesn't look nor feel like I was bested by the game.

 

Quote

[...] just the downside there is sometimes it does let you escape despite looking “stupid,” so I’m not sure how much we’d want to fix that?

 

I'm going to be brutally honest with you, though I mean no disrespect when I say this: The flailing looks infinitely stupider than any unrealistic, narrow escape. It also has the disadvantage of feeling, overwhelmingly, like an animation bug. That instills a feeling of having been cheated by the game, even if that isn't the case.

 

Edited by Fuzzy Wolfy
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No, it is not a bug. We can’t literally connect zombies’ limbs to the player with the current tech, so there’s a gap. It doesn’t mean that “there must be space I can escape from.” You’re being grabbed, held, and munched. It’s no different than the intervening years before anims where just by being near 3 or more zombies, you were arbitrarily slowed. It wasn’t a bug then, either, even if some people (including myself) didn’t like it. I get it — it sucks to die and it’s natural to blame the game for it, especially if it teases you a bit with an opening and no clear connection, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bug — it’s just the best we can do for now, so try to imagine getting hugged to death in this scenario.

 

Otherwise, I feel like my edit already addressed this. I understand if it was missed. You get a quick death instead of being ping-ponged:

A counter could be added to make sure you only get X strikes in Y time, ofc.

Edited  by EnigmaGrey

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  • 3 months later...

A bit of a necro-post, but I figured I might as well respond to the edit.

 

As far as the previous iterations of Zomboid have gone, the slowdown worked because it allowed for player input; you could either continue shoving, try to power through the slow-down and run, or use the environment to make a really risky escape. The majority of the time, none of the above worked, you'd still get munched or injured—and that's okay.  That's Zomboid, baby!  It's risky, and often times, death comes a-knockin' when you least expect it.

 

The reason this is an issue, however, is because it doesn't resemble a fair death, even if it supposedly is.

 

There's no possibility for player input despite your character "fighting back" autonomously for an entire minute—and God help you if your character is maxed out and at full health, too, because then you might be forced to wait two whole minutes before you finally, spontaneously collapse.

 

It just feels like a bug, even if it's not. That's the tragedy of it.

 

You can say it's by design, but most of the players who've encountered this issue aren't satisfied with it, including those—like myself—who very much enjoy how unforgiving Zomboid can often times be. As said, the solutions I've seen nearly every time this issue has been brought up is either putting a buffer between animations to allow player input, have the "shove" animation affect the second zombie, or implement a "takedown" animation or instant-kill trigger so that the player isn't forced to sit through the ping-pong match.

 

It's really not a case of me—or anyone—complaining that the game is being unfair. The ping-pong just looks bad.

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2 hours ago, Fuzzy Wolfy said:

A bit of a necro-post, but I figured I might as well respond to the edit.

 

As far as the previous iterations of Zomboid have gone, the slowdown worked because it allowed for player input; you could either continue shoving, try to power through the slow-down and run, or use the environment to make a really risky escape. The majority of the time, none of the above worked, you'd still get munched or injured—and that's okay.  That's Zomboid, baby!  It's risky, and often times, death comes a-knockin' when you least expect it.

 

The reason this is an issue, however, is because it doesn't resemble a fair death, even if it supposedly is.

 

There's no possibility for player input despite your character "fighting back" autonomously for an entire minute—and God help you if your character is maxed out and at full health, too, because then you might be forced to wait two whole minutes before you finally, spontaneously collapse.

 

It just feels like a bug, even if it's not. That's the tragedy of it.

 

You can say it's by design, but most of the players who've encountered this issue aren't satisfied with it, including those—like myself—who very much enjoy how unforgiving Zomboid can often times be. As said, the solutions I've seen nearly every time this issue has been brought up is either putting a buffer between animations to allow player input, have the "shove" animation affect the second zombie, or implement a "takedown" animation or instant-kill trigger so that the player isn't forced to sit through the ping-pong match.

 

It's really not a case of me—or anyone—complaining that the game is being unfair. The ping-pong just looks bad.


Per my last postI’m fine with the ping-pong aspect simply resulting in a more rapid death, but you generally have to work pretty hard to put yourself in this situation.

 

 Don’t try to power through multiple zombies.

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I'd be fine with that, and I'm sure many others would be, too. The issue really stems from how unsightly the death looks and how it takes control away from the players for well over a minute, if not longer. For the classic difficulty with no multi-hit, I, personally, can totally buy this being an encounter you just flat-out lose.

 

Still, I would disagree with how much effort it takes to get in that situation. All it really needs is two zombies approaching you with, roughly, a second's delay from one another. Really, so long as your character gets into that shove animation with another zombie coming at you, it's bound to happen. Regardless, it's easy enough to reproduce that a fair few people have reported it.

 

I appreciate the time and attention you've given this though, as said.

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  • 2 months later...
On 11/4/2021 at 7:22 AM, EnigmaGrey said:


Per my last postI’m fine with the ping-pong aspect simply resulting in a more rapid death, but you generally have to work pretty hard to put yourself in this situation.

 

 Don’t try to power through multiple zombies.

You are being incredibly patronising. You're defending negative aspects of the game blindly and without logic, using semantics to form a narrative in which being stunlocked by 2 zeds is completely fine. If a game mechanic is literally indistinguishable from a bug to the people playing it, then I really don't think the semantics of whether or not you agree it's a bug is important. Player frustration and how well game mechanics are conveyed to the player is what matters in this discussion. The animation capabilities of the devs should be a limitation for implementing combat mechanics, not something they ignore. There is already 'drag down', this punishes players who try to 'power through multiple zombies'. The bug OP is trying to address is essentially 'drag down' except there is no animation to inform the player of what is happening, there is no drama, it takes up to a minute to resolve in your death, and 2 zombies are capable of initiating this closed loop of slow death, through ZERO fault from the player. Even when kiting back perfectly from 2 zeds and making no mistakes, one can slip through your push and begin an attack animation, if the second zombie times its attack animation at the right time, then this begins a loop of animations with no space between them for player input. If you want to defend its title as a 'intended feature' that is fine, however it is clearly an oversight from the developers that will be patched out soon or added as a sandbox option.

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I think there is a misunderstanding here. The character does not get stunlocked just because it is close to the zombie.

 

it gets stunlocked by:

1) animation where it reacts to the zombie lunging (which is fine) since you don’t want them grabbing you, smashing you, shoving you, scratching you. 
2) the reaction animation which tells the player got hurt. 
 

if we are trying to emulate realism, yes you would stop Actions and react to a bite or a laceration. You are not immune to pain. 

Edited by bliss
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9 hours ago, bliss said:

I think there is a misunderstanding here. The character does not get stunlocked just because it is close to the zombie.

 

it gets stunlocked by:

1) animation where it reacts to the zombie lunging (which is fine) since you don’t want them grabbing you, smashing you, shoving you, scratching you. 
2) the reaction animation which tells the player got hurt. 
 

if we are trying to emulate realism, yes you would stop Actions and react to a bite or a laceration. You are not immune to pain. 


Exactly.

Though, iirc, if you play on sprinters, they do have the old "repulsion field" that slows the player when they're near. I believe it is itself an option in sandbox. Kind of made up for the old days where zombies couldn't grab you.

 

And the solution is still killing the player faster, re ping-ponging between zombies ... per my last two messages. Kind of hard not to sound patronizing when I have to repeat that yet again.

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15 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:


Exactly.

Though, iirc, if you play on sprinters, they do have the old "repulsion field" that slows the player when they're near. I believe it is itself an option in sandbox. Kind of made up for the old days where zombies couldn't grab you.

 

And the solution is still killing the player faster, re ping-ponging between zombies ... per my last two messages. Kind of hard not to sound patronizing when I have to repeat that yet again.

 

As expected, you didn't address a single one of my well articulated and logical arguments; instead opting to lazily and indirectly write me off as ignorant. I find myself not only questioning how you are a moderator, but also questioning whether you have even played the game. The solution to a bug is to fix it, not speed up its effects. Your job as a moderator is to help and inform people like OP, not spout equivocal 1 liners with an attitude of "Get good"

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56 minutes ago, Cake_Somewhere said:

 

As expected, you didn't address a single one of my well articulated and logical arguments; instead opting to lazily and indirectly write me off as ignorant. I find myself not only questioning how you are a moderator, but also questioning whether you have even played the game. The solution to a bug is to fix it, not speed up its effects. Your job as a moderator is to help and inform people like OP, not spout equivocal 1 liners with an attitude of "Get good"


Well, if anything is going to sway me, it’s going to be an ego trip by someone telling me what my job is. I had no opinion as to whether you were ignorant or not, but you’ve certainly helped me form one just now. Roasting me for it preemptively seems a tad weird, though.

 

Really, what’s the expected outcome here? Are you trying to get a ban or something?

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The only stunlock I'm absolutely against at the moment is the stunlock from getting shot/hit/pushed by a player.

Typically, if I'm getting stun locked by zeds, I've fucked up big time. Whether that be taking on too many zeds at once, not backing up when I open a door, locking myself in a room and being swarmed, being swarmed, etc. The only time I can think of a time where I got stunlocked and I felt a lil salty about it is when a zombie basically grabbed my military backpack from behind, bit my neck, and dragged me into a swarm, but ever since If I don't have high nimble I typically drop my bag before I fight so it doesn't happen.

That being said, I'd be completely fine with an option to turn it off or limit it in some way. I'd personally never use it, but I have seen quite a few people complaining about it.

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On 1/18/2022 at 1:10 PM, EnigmaGrey said:


Well, if anything is going to sway me, it’s going to be an ego trip by someone telling me what my job is. I had no opinion as to whether you were ignorant or not, but you’ve certainly helped me form one just now. Roasting me for it preemptively seems a tad weird, though.

 

Really, what’s the expected outcome here? Are you trying to get a ban or something?

 

While not the one you're replying to, I felt the need to make an account just because I'm more than a little disgusted by seeing this attitude from a mod on these forums. Found this thread after googling about the stun lock when three random zombies decided the house I was sitting in (that was completely dark, no radio or TV playing, windows and curtains closed, clean character with no injuries sitting and reading a book in the back bedroom with no windows) looked interesting and decided to break in for no apparent reason. I ended up getting locked into the attack animation loop after killing one of the zombies and killed with essentially no input available after the first shove whiffed for no apparent reason. As somebody relatively new, that doesn't make me feel like I did something wrong, that doesn't make me want to improve, that doesn't feel good or fun, that feels incredibly cheap and unfair. An animation shouldn't be able to perfectly chain with itself to completely disable player input.

 

I am all for accepting that people can improve at games/it's not always the game's fault and fully recognize even in that scenario there are things I could have done differently. That said, the fact that it's possible at any point while fighting two zombies for the game to just decide "Haha, you're dead!" despite your stats, skills, or gear is terrible. It's shocking to me that anybody could defend it in any manner, that is one of the worst things you can do in terms of game design: Take away player agency.

 

Seeing a mod on this forum essentially go "Get good and deal with it" makes me not want to play the game even further, particularly since that's been your attitude in other topics as well from what I've seen while looking at opinions on this. 

Edited by Zoralink
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It never was meant to be an easy game dude.

 

There is a plethora of sandbox settings that can tone it down to whatever difficulty level you can handle.

 

Or at least wait for it to leave early access before shitting on the moderators, who from what I can gather, did a rather good job at explaining the system.

 

Not good enough answer for ya? Then play another game. Quite simple, really.

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Is there a way to decrease the possibility of this happen say via a stats check? Or is there a point of no return irrespective of player stats/skills? For full disclosure I'd very much say I'm still rather a greenhorn at this game; have had characters survive for a month or so but then succumbed to zombies by overextending the encumbered and exhausted character.

 

Was surprised to be killed off by the mechanic named in this thread, had a new character with lvl 9 strength and fitness (1980s action movie hero? :)) whose car engine died next to a high fence and some walkers closing in, was fully rested and not encumbered. Got out of the car and then the first one got near and attacked me followed by his/her smelly friends. Was unable to do anything. Would a (hopefully temporary) moodle* indicating that the player character is being held a good way to inform the player that (s)he is not faring well? Could there be a passive check against stats or say when attempting to run (shift + movement key) away from the threat (especially if the player is not surrounded and the threat is "only" in one direction)?

*) could indicate that the player feels a cold hand clutching a limb or such, would induce panic and anxiety

 

Respectfully,

AdmScoo

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On 1/20/2022 at 1:20 AM, Zoralink said:

 

While not the one you're replying to, I felt the need to make an account just because I'm more than a little disgusted by seeing this attitude from a mod on these forums. Found this thread after googling about the stun lock when three random zombies decided the house I was sitting in (that was completely dark, no radio or TV playing, windows and curtains closed, clean character with no injuries sitting and reading a book in the back bedroom with no windows) looked interesting and decided to break in for no apparent reason.

This may not have been the case for you (I'm thinking it's likely though), but if it's dark and you flick the light switches in buildings, it seems to make quite a lot of noise. Here's a video explaining it.

As for the rest of the topic, is this what happens when you have drag down turned off? I haven't had this happen yet, but it does sound like a miserable experience. The original solution further up the thread of a counter so you can only get hit x amount of times does sound like a fairly reasonable solution.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Quote

 

Two people grab you and take you by surprised.

 

You try to run but can’t.

 

Is this being stunlocked, or is this being held? There’s a limit to what can be shown through the animation system currently in ProjectZomboid, since we cannot lineup things like this at all, so the gap that may appear isn’t actually there as far as the game is concerned. You’re being grappled and mauled while you’re trying to turn and run. This, while not always clear, isn’t a bug.

 

 

What about incorporating hand to hand combat as a skill? I've been a martial arts instructor for about 13 years, having a black sash in traditional Shaolin kung fu (southern Hung Gar). I guarantee you I can stop two people from grappling me - especially if they're fundamentally mindless zombies.

 

After you've killed 2,000 zombies, you should know a thing or two about fighting them. I feel like your survivability should go up with time. I would say that realistically, the bigger threat should be other people (npc's or pvp).

 

This is my opinion. I love the game.

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18 hours ago, Nardasia said:

 

What about incorporating hand to hand combat as a skill? I've been a martial arts instructor for about 13 years, having a black sash in traditional Shaolin kung fu (southern Hung Gar). I guarantee you I can stop two people from grappling me - especially if they're fundamentally mindless zombies.

 

After you've killed 2,000 zombies, you should know a thing or two about fighting them. I feel like your survivability should go up with time. I would say that realistically, the bigger threat should be other people (npc's or pvp).

 

This is my opinion. I love the game.

Yes and no.

 

Given the particular lore of the zombies in PZ, destroying the brain is what kills the z. Skulls are thick, and... well, boney. How many skulls can kicked in with unarmed body parts before the one throwing their fists feet and elbows around breaks their fists, feet or elbows?

 

I still think there could be more in the unarmed combat army department. Bonuses to knockdown, multihits and perhaps a more damage for ground stomps. If you kill with your feet in game while wearing light sneakers, slippers etc, it causes your character do take damage to his feet.

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20 hours ago, Nardasia said:

 

What about incorporating hand to hand combat as a skill? I've been a martial arts instructor for about 13 years, having a black sash in traditional Shaolin kung fu (southern Hung Gar). I guarantee you I can stop two people from grappling me - especially if they're fundamentally mindless zombies.

 

After you've killed 2,000 zombies, you should know a thing or two about fighting them. I feel like your survivability should go up with time. I would say that realistically, the bigger threat should be other people (npc's or pvp).

 

This is my opinion. I love the game.

Yes and no.

 

Given the particular lore of the zombies in PZ, destroying the brain is what kills the z. Skulls are thick, and... well, boney. How many skulls can kicked in with unarmed body parts before the one throwing their fists feet and elbows around breaks their fists, feet or elbows?

 

I still think there could be more in the unarmed combat army department. Bonuses to knockdown, multihits and perhaps a more damage for ground stomps. If you kill with your feet in game while wearing light sneakers, slippers etc, it causes your character do take damage to his feet.

 

As most forms of up close and personal martial arts include defensive moves, perhaps an unarmed attack could add increased likelyhood of dodging attacks, and to simulate throws, add a chance for the dodge to also apply a knockdown. Use the zeds inertia to do most of the work.

 

As far as straight damage from fists and elbows(knees feet and forehead too)during prolonged engagements would ultimately lead to some kind of injury. Mouths and teeth take up a good 5 to 10% of the surface you would have to hit to technically deal lethal(for lack of better terms) damage, and would only increase the chances of a guaranteed end in the form of zombification. Plus any abrasions or scratches you'll get on your 'weapons' would only increase the chance of infection. You are hitting a giant walking disease, after all.

 

Even the best martial artist can make a mistake, and I doubt 100% of their hits land 100% of the time.

 

Granted, with multiplayer and the npcs well someday get, there could be more useful applications of such a skill.

 

Lastly, most martial arts are just that. Art. Would you beat a zed to death with the Mona Lisa, or a Jackson Pollock piece?

Edited by Papa Juliet Whiskey
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On 8/2/2021 at 5:08 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

Two people grab you and take you by surprised.

Then one person is incapacitated and the other is trying to decide whether to continue their actions, run or plead with you... or they're too dumbstruck to think and freeze.

I can see the OP's point.  Project Zomboid survivors are already, severely, underpowered at the start of a game.  A zombie wouldn't be able to get a very good hold of anything even if it was able to think to try.  It's a zombie, it's dead and it's brain no longer functions like a human's.  Two zombies shouldn't be enough to stop you from moving in any direction, even if both of them are directly in your path and you're over-encumbered.  Even if a zombie was able to grasp you with the average hand strength of a living human, just the fact that, in a zombie apocalypse, the character stops, looks around, then throws elbows, is utterly ridiculous.  The moment a survivor felt the slightest amount of pressure from anything even close to a zombie hand on their back, arm or whatever, reflex would have them reacting within a tenth of a second and executing the action nearly as fast.  And they, definitely, wouldn't sit in the same spot and casually look around before attempting to defend themselves.

 

Two zombies manage to touch you without you noticing their approach... you immediately pull away from the sensation and lunge forward, either to attempt an escape or to turn and fight because that's just basic instinct.  If an individual didn't possess such basic survival instincts, they would not have survived the initial outbreak without some sort of extenuating circumstances.

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On 2/23/2022 at 9:35 AM, Papa Juliet Whiskey said:

How many skulls can kicked in with unarmed body parts before the one throwing their fists feet and elbows around breaks their fists, feet or elbows?

Carpals, metacarpals, tarsals, metatarsals and phalanges all break, relatively, easily.  Elbows and knees, however, can withstand immense amounts of stress, including repetitious heavy blows.  That's why, in most professional fighting leagues, fighters wrap their hands, and usually wear gloves.  Some even wear foot pads.  I've never seen anyone employ elbow or knee pads in fighting sports though, but it would definitely not be a bad idea in a zombie apocalypse.  Things like hand wraps, boxing gloves, grappling gloves, bag gloves, foot pads, elbow pads, knee pads, brass knuckles, cesti, gauntlets, etc. could be used in their manufactured forms, or modified.  A player could be wearing some plated, bladed or spiked gloves, pads, gauntlets or cesti.

 

On 2/23/2022 at 9:35 AM, Papa Juliet Whiskey said:

Mouths and teeth take up a good 5 to 10% of the surface you would have to hit to technically deal lethal(for lack of better terms) damage

Idk, 10% seems high.  Were all the zombies Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger or Julia Roberts?  :p  Realistically though, zombies are slow and don't reflexively move out of the way of attacks.  Not only would a survivor be aiming for the brain or brain stem, but nobody in their right mind would be throwing straight punches at human teeth, much less zombie teeth.  In hand to hand combat, your opponent is in close proximity to you.  Kind of makes "aiming" automatic.  It's not like trying to shoot something a few hundred feet away with a handgun or anything.  Or even like trying to place a punch on the sweet spot of actively defending individual.  It's more akin to grabbing an item off of a shelf.  PLENTY of room for error, unless you tend to mess up BIG.  I mean, it might be difficult to jab a dagger perfectly through the center of a zombie's pupil, but you should get it into the eye socket no problem.  Throwing a hook punch to a zombie's brain stem wouldn't lead to you "accidentally" punching it in the mouth, that's just absurd.  Now, throwing a hook punch to a zombie's brain stem and "accidentally" brushing up against an another, adjacent zombie's teeth is a bit more believable.  You shouldn't be throwing hooks in a crowd anyway.  The best course of action in a crowd of zombies would be to move through them quickly and forcefully, using your hands to keep the immediately adjacent zombies mouths away from your skin.  Not easy, but simple.  Hope you played some football at some point.  Metal heads might have a leg up with their mosh pit experiences as well.  What we really need is a grappling system.  Should be able to use a zombie as a shield against other zombies and slam their heads into nearby hard surfaces, such as walls, tables, counter tops, etc.  Bathrooms are nice due to all the sinks, toilets and tiled walls, especially public restrooms with all the stalls, paper towel dispensers and trash cans.

 

On 2/23/2022 at 9:35 AM, Papa Juliet Whiskey said:

Lastly, most martial arts are just that. Art. Would you beat a zed to death with the Mona Lisa, or a Jackson Pollock piece?

Sorry to break it to you, but that's just ignorant.  While, yes, some disciplines are heavily stylized, calling martial arts "art" is just incorrect.  "Martial Arts" is, actually, a misnomer.  It would be more accurate to call it "Fight Science", because that's what it is.  Martial arts is an applied science rooted in physics, biology and psychology.  Now, that being said, there ARE disciplines out there that fall severely short of efficiency.  The various disciplines were created throughout the millennia by various people.  And, since we humans are imperfect beings and vary greatly in skill and intellect, some disciplines are just more efficient.  That's not to say that a good fighter can't come from a background of sub-par or mediocre disciplines, but it IS less likely.  And yes, if it came down to it, I'd bash a zed with anything nearby or bash anything nearby with the zed.  Most of what people think of as "paintings" are canvas tightly stretched over a wooded frame.  Which, while not the best improvised weapon, can do in a pinch.  Good against vampires too.  :p  Plus, have you seen the frame on the Mona Lisa.  Pretty sure somebody could do some serious damage swinging that thing around.  I wonder, would Jackson Pollock do well using zombie brains as a medium?

 

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16 hours ago, NachoNinjaGnome said:

Jackson Pollock do well using zombie brains as a medium?

 

I make one everytime I smack a zed near a wall. I lack the artist touch thought.

 

Maybe I just got a combo of the thin skin trait with a touch of clumsy myself, but I look at my hands after a day of working retail, mostly merchandising, and I find ways to inadvertently cut my fingers, knuckles, hands and arms on all kind of things not including my knife. Hell, a plastic lid of ice cream left a quarter inch gouge on my finger.

 

And the jagged rim on peanutbutter jars?

Maybe zomboid should add injury chance on looting them, lol.

 

I myself wouldn't feel to confident throwing knuckles at a zed's head myself, but I tend to have shit luck. Wouldn't even consider it without some kind of gloves. Extra points for knuckle dusters.

 

I just look at the amount of times I kill zeds, and the amounts of hits it could take to drop em, I just feel like injury is bound to happen after a few hundred of them over the course of a week.

 

Cracked my R-5 metacarpal throwing a fist into a stack of plastic Pepsi crates during a brief patience malfunction once. Of course, everyone told me up until that point that "if you can move it, it ain't broken". I've learned since then, several times, that such a claim is more on the bullshit side things.

 

Two and a half work days later, decided to poke into the er. Bone had already set... fortunately without losing any functionality in my hand, beyond the obvious swelly broken bone pain until it had fully healed.

 

As unlucky as I am, I can at least say I always injure myself with grace.

 

Regardless, I so believe the game could do with an unarmed skill, but straight up killing hundreds with bare hands alone? I dunno, just seems high risk in a way.

 

Could be a way to have the devs code in broken hands or arms though, since legs have been the only bones I've managed to break in game.

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