Science skill

[Jingles Sideways]

This is a repost of an idea I had in another thread, but I think it deserves it's own thread.I think the game is missing a science skill that would act as a aggregate score for the players scientific knowledge. With it you could identify what disease people have by looking at wounds or symptoms (or tell the difference between zombie fever and flu fever), make basic medicines and antibiotics (Like paracetamol) will a low skill and no equipment or targeted medicines (when proper disease is implemented) with high skill and static equipment.

Or the making of munitions? Pipe bombs that go off in your hand or false duds that go off after a few mins rather that right away could be the result of a low science skill. A scientificly minded individual would also know how to create a generator using magnets, copper wire and a motor. 

 

In short there need to be a skill to cover the more technical aspects of life, just because the zombocolypse hit doesn't mean modern knowledge has evaporated it just means you have to find the reference material.

 

I think it could be leveled through a combo of reading books (they would act like keys to each level and take a long time to read. Like 3 days if you were to read them in one sitting) and practice would give you xp. 

 

So yeah, tell me what you think!

[Cl0nec0mmand0]

the fucks paracetamol?

also I'm doubtful that people could learn to make it with out some sort of collage education(maybe you need to have a job to do this?) or even to have the resources available to make it.

[Ontogenesis]

I think these are better divided into medical and engineering skills. The former being self-explanatory, and the latter having the ability to create/use/repair electronics, or possibly combined with construction skills.

 

Creating antibiotics would be basically be impossible without a dedicated lab setup, and often involves genetically engineering bacteria. Also, paracetomol is mild painkiller, not antibiotic (it has a different name in the US I believe)

[TinnedEpic]

Perhaps. I'm not sure how well it would fit in.

 

I mean begin able to Manifacture a generator? or produce complex medicines without the use of technology? One faulty conductor and boom goes the generator, 1 miss calculation in your medicine and suddenly your tripping balls, or worse death. As Cl0ne said, it requires advance knowledge of engineering or chemistry. Both require complex setups to get it right.

 

Perhaps a more underpowered version? Doctor allows basic diagnosis and treatment of wounds/illness. They know first aid and basics of helping the body rid itself of illness. They cannot formulate complex treatments or medicine. I'm not sure how engineer would work.

[Jingles Sideways]

The idea behind the "key books" was the education requirement as it would take a looooong (I think on refelction 15 days should be how long it takes to read each book as it should take into considration consolidating the knowledge) time to read them.

As for paracetamol it can be manufactured without complex equipment (go check out how it was discovered) and also if you read the post you would see that for complex medicines you would need static (i.e BIG UNMOVABLE) equipment such electron microscopes etc. so you would have to secure a lab location or now with the engineering. I really like the idea of splitting them into engineering and medicine as it would nerf the usefulness a lot by adding long time requirement to learn. The idea behind it was for players in late game a way to start truly rebuilding.

 

As for complex machines you could have to secure a factory (locations that are already in game, logging yard, auto shop etc.) to use the big static equipment. I think the idea of needing facilties would work well with the upcoming ability to clear a location.

 

I think it could lead to some really interesting emergent gameplay.

 

Edit: Oh yeah nearly forgot, while it is true that most antibiotics now come from GM bacteria they used to be manufactured by testing different cultures on a target culture until you found one that was effective then maintaining batches of the bacteria that made your drug as you'll note that antibiotics predate genetic modification, so you need no more equipment than a sterile surface to work on and some agar plates (can be manufactured using anything with bone marrow, grisly implications)

[uberevan]

I think these are better divided into medical and engineering skills. The former being self-explanatory, and the latter having the ability to create/use/repair electronics, or possibly combined with construction skills.

 

Creating antibiotics would be basically be impossible without a dedicated lab setup, and often involves genetically engineering bacteria. Also, paracetomol is mild painkiller, not antibiotic (it has a different name in the US I believe)

Adding off of what he said, I think that you could even divide engineering into "Salvaging" the skill for acquiring and preserving parts, and "Mechanic" skill, which is knowing how to use those parts. I don't care either way, but a seperate skill for build machines n stuff could make a good setup for the traps they want to implement

[TinnedEpic]

I still don't think manifacturing of chemist drugs is really something I'd be interested in. I mean I find enough painkillers on the map as it is to last me until I die.

[Fj45]

How about having several related skills as the others have suggested (medical, salvaging, mechanic) that could be boosted by having a higher science skill? 

 

The science skill could be mostly useless on its own but could give slight boosts to many things:

Better NPC interaction with certain NPCs (depends on their interests and job)

Slight item repair bonus

Slight boost to the above skills

Boost to certain crafting recipes

 

All I can think of right now.

 

 

 

EDIT: Just want to clarify, I agree with Rathlord that OP's suggestion wouldn't fit, this is just what I thought could work instead.

[Rathlord]

I don't disagree with the overall idea, but this is WAYYYY off base as far as game design in my humble opinion. This game is meant to be about every day, normal people.

 

Even your average doctor doesn't have the know how to make antibiotics off-hand, not to mention any kind of targeted disease-fighting treatments. You're vastly underestimating the complexity behind these tasks, and likely how common they'd be found in Muldraugh, Kentucky too.

 

I can't stress enough that this is not a game where you're playing as a genius or a superhero- you're a normal guy. Normal guys don't manufacture complex medications or build machines from scratch.

[Walther]

the only medication a normal guy could produce is how to use everyday herbs n stuff... making real medication is bogus. for someone who has no idea about stuff like this, or like rath said, even a doctor doesnt make medication. he just gives it to you and knows what it does.

 

as far as engineering is concerned, building something from scratch is super complicated and I guess you would need power to do so, you might have to solder some stuff etc. even if you are handy with tools and computers, building something just out of spare parts is also not realistic IMO. you could maybe have the ability to repair something with a higher chance of working or a longer durability though

[Suomiboi]

For the guys and gals who want to build a generator. Why build one when you can just get a car and rewire the lights radio etc. to places where you want electricity. Of course this is when vehicles are implemented. Just start the car and you have a working generator. If you need a little more umph to your electrical device just hook it straight up to the battery. 12 volts and 40-80 ah are the most common car batteries I think and then you have the 24 volts in bigger vehicles and that's enough to power most common electrical devices. It's not really rocket science.

 

This is how I'd do it if I was in need of electricity in the middle of zombocalypse. It's decently quiet and provides a small amount of energy. Maybe not the best fuel/benefit ratio, but it works. Plus it has the benefit of storing the energy and not just being able to use when the car is on (although you risk the battery getting empty and the car won't start).

[Fj45]

For the guys and gals who want to build a generator. Why build one when you can just get a car and rewire the lights radio etc. to places where you want electricity. Of course this is when vehicles are implemented. Just start the car and you have a working generator. If you need a little more umph to your electrical device just hook it straight up to the battery. 12 volts and 40-80 ah are the most common car batteries I think and then you have the 24 volts in bigger vehicles and that's enough to power most common electrical devices. It's not really rocket science.

 

This is how I'd do it if I was in need of electricity in the middle of zombocalypse. It's decently quiet and provides a small amount of energy. Maybe not the best fuel/benefit ratio, but it works. Plus it has the benefit of storing the energy and not just being able to use when the car is on (although you risk the battery getting empty and the car won't start).

 

Or build a very simple, human powered generator. Great source of exercise too!

[Jingles Sideways]

I don't disagree with the overall idea, but this is WAYYYY off base as far as game design in my humble opinion. This game is meant to be about every day, normal people.

 

Even your average doctor doesn't have the know how to make antibiotics off-hand, not to mention any kind of targeted disease-fighting treatments. You're vastly underestimating the complexity behind these tasks, and likely how common they'd be found in Muldraugh, Kentucky too.

 

I can't stress enough that this is not a game where you're playing as a genius or a superhero- you're a normal guy. Normal guys don't manufacture complex medications or build machines from scratch.

The idea was to sim a normal person learning to do an achievable skill; but something that takes years of in game time to master. Anybody with enough time, motivation and reference material can achieve these things. But that would be the draw back, your toon would have to spend long hours studying, (A good time to use the fast forward , if you feel like your enough supplies) which may down the line become critical.

 

The reason I came up with the idea is that when you're setup with a fortress, water yard and farm; and have cleared your area out to a safe workable state, I feel that the game is played more month to month rather than day by day and it's really only freak extreme events that threaten your existence. I feel that when survivors are added and tasks are automated that this effect could be magnified. That given I thought it would be appropriate to add a long term goal.

[American Steel]

Medicine - Toss this out the window.  Lets go with Medic and call it even.  A medic can set broken bone, suture wounds, identify and treat infections, etc.  We are not going to be manafactuing any chemicals (unless you want to set up a Meth Lab for that line of Zed running around outside) and we are not going to be coming out with a cure for anything.  We are living day to day here.

 

Medic 0 - John Q Public, no clue beyond what they learned in elementary school.  Can apply simple bandages and self medicate.  Medicine at 50% effectiveness, indentify infection correctly 25% of the time

Medic 1 - Character has rudementary medical training (Combat Lifesave in the army, Red Cross First Aid trianing).  Medicine Effectiveness at 75%.  Player can identify infections correctly 50% of the time.  May set broken bones but not an expert.

Medic 2 - Character has been trained in the art of emergency first aid enough to be employed (EMT - Basic, Combat Medic in the Army, etc).  Has the capability to be trained in the use of IV fluids, give shots, draw blood.  May set broken bones correctly most of the time.  Medicine effectiveness at 100%, identify infections 75% of the time.

Medic 3 - Character has advanced emergeny medical training (LPN, Paramedic, Special Forces Medic).  Medicine at 125% effectivess, identify infections 100%

Medic 4 - Character has advanced emergency medical training that has stood the test of time.  Has seen action in a trauma ward, front lines, etc.  Could be a doctor, or simply a Paramedic who has been on the streets.  Medicine at 150% effectivess.  Healing rate +10%

Medic 5 - Trauma Surgeon.  Medicine at 200% effectivess.  Healing rate +25%.

 

Of course, we dont actually have this kind of time.. or this kind of experience.  Character are going to be mending themselves from common conditions and reading a TON of books.  I think the experience it would take to get a player past level three would be extra ordinary.  I think a new "skill set" for the game might make all of this irrelevant.

 

Combat Medic - Player uses medical supplies at 100% effectivess, identifies infection (this is fungal, bacterial, etc...) correctly 75%, +10% healing rate for anyone under his care.

 

This would allow for a player to assit NPCs when they come along.  Players who are not Combat Medics use medical supplies at 50% effectiveness and can only identiify an infection correctly 25% of the time.  Healing rate is standard.

[Obinhi]

I don't disagree with the overall idea, but this is WAYYYY off base as far as game design in my humble opinion. This game is meant to be about every day, normal people.

 

Even your average doctor doesn't have the know how to make antibiotics off-hand, not to mention any kind of targeted disease-fighting treatments. You're vastly underestimating the complexity behind these tasks, and likely how common they'd be found in Muldraugh, Kentucky too.

 

I can't stress enough that this is not a game where you're playing as a genius or a superhero- you're a normal guy. Normal guys don't manufacture complex medications or build machines from scratch.

 

 

I dont disagree with the crux of the post, that this may be outside the scope of the game, but I do take issue with the idea that normal guys dont manufacture machines from scratch.

 

First point, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia to quote the article "The economy of Appalachia traditionally rested on agriculture, mining, timber, and in the cities, manufacturing." So at this point I would like to motion that all mention of the common person in the game region would be some how unable to fashion basic, and I would like to stress basic, mechanical devices. Basic electric generators are constructed by spinning an iron rod inside of a copper coil. Transistor radios are constructed out of kits in most american high schools. I for one build a pneumatic cannon out of PVC pipe and pressured it up with a bike pump. The valve and trigger were a standard off the shelf model from the hardware store. 

 

My point is, and I don't want to come across like an ass to the non American folk, but here in the states we get a lot of basic mechanical training in primary school. This said it is not so much of a strech to have basic, simplistically written text books on engineering in any high school.

 

I would like to at this point disclose that my high school was Easton High School in Easton Maryland. It has a drafting class that has autoCAD and design classes, as well a a very advanced wood shop, auto repair, and electronics lab. I know that I was lucky in that I lived in a relativity wealthy district, but the basics of the aforementioned classes would be on offer in the local public schools.

 

SO TL;DR Do not underestimate what the common man or woman may be able to do. 

 

Next I would like to point out that just by the fact that the PC has survived where nearly every other person has died would in my opinion make them very smart or very lucky, and not at all common or ordinary. 

 

Ok so for the second part. I agree with the notion that if medical and electronic skills are put in it must be very quick and dirty, A high rate of failure would need to be a part of it for sure. Electronics could cover basic jury rigging stuff like the above mentioned rigging a car as a basic generiator. Where top level electronic skill would let you build a small wind/water mill for recharging a battery or two a day. The medic skill would be the same sort of thing, the untrained knows just enough not to OD on pain killers if they can read the box, mid levels could identify local plants that can help with minor things. Dandelion is a good example http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-706-DANDELION.aspx?activeIngredientId=706&activeIngredientName=DANDELION. It is also eaten and you can make an ok wine out of it. High skill would be reserved to set bones, and be able to diagnose basic ailments. (If you are link averse this is the important segment )

How does it work?

Dandelion contains chemicals that may increase urine production and decrease swelling (inflammation)

 

I would like to stress that this should not be like the carpentry skill where you can spam walls until you get the skill up, to get to the highest skill levels you should have to get loads of hands on experience, or there should be a high material cost.

 

Anyway, sorry for the long post but that is my two bits.

[Rathlord]

Eh, I agree with some parts of this. I think you overestimate the amount of know-how people retain from high school. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of human beings could make a functional generator from scratch. Maybe I'm wrong, but I deal with people every day who are barely able to tie their own shoes. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist.

 

Next I would like to point out that just by the fact that the PC has survived where nearly every other person has died would in my opinion make them very smart or very lucky, and not at all common or ordinary.

 

I'm inclined to think the people surviving the ontogenesis of the zombie outbreak are just very lucky. When you think that we're essentially a few days in when you start, the very first survivors will be mainly people who are just in the right place in the right time, not those with any particular talent for survival. It would only be later that survival of the fittest truly kicked in. Regardless of any logic, though, the developers have directly stated the game is meant to be about normal people, so that's the way we must figure it in our suggestions.

 

The biggest problem I see, though, is that this is going to largely depend on what people bring into it, not what they learn in the field. No normal person can just "figure out" a generator. Either they have the know-how, or they don't. On that note, my suggestion to salvage this suggestion would be that while reading books (which I think could be merged with skill books) you have a chance to learn the 'recipe' for some more complex crafting and science items. These things would be stuff that no ordinary person could just 'learn by doing' in the field- specific things that require knowledge. All of these 'recipes' would be locked off when you start the game, regardless of whether you had the materials for it (would be completely hidden to the player). This is because we're playing as a character, not ourselves, so regardless of whether we know the 'recipe', our character would not.

[Obinhi]

Not bad points at all rath, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the PC being special ;D. I want to clarify that my implication of the school was not retention but instead the fact that schools are already in place to provide a base of potential study. Further more there should be one hell of alot of error when it comes to trial and error.

I also want to point out that building a fence that stands up to normal weather is not as easy as the game makes it seem, but in the interest of game play the concession was made not to make you dig post holes, mix concrete sink posts and so on.

I do want to say that any system should not take away from the core game play of killing zombies, but I will say that my wife is very interested in buying the game because she likes the idea of building additions to the houses and such. She has stated that she would most likely just turn the zombies off.

[RorekSR]

Not bad points at all rath, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the PC being special ;D. I want to clarify that my implication of the school was not retention but instead the fact that schools are already in place to provide a base of potential study. Further more there should be one hell of alot of error when it comes to trial and error.

The Devs have said the PC is an average Joe. You can think they're special all you like, that doesn't mean that everyone else has to consider them super Joe when it comes to adding features.

 

I'm not understanding the mentality of people making a suggestion, then when it isn't accepted by the community, they always seem to add "But it would have an extremely high risk of failure!" or "It'll take WEEKS/MONTHS/YEARS to do!" or both.

Project Zomboid, for all intents and purposes, is still a video game. If it isn't fun, people aren't going to give a shit and that's the bottom line. If it took weeks on end of just sitting around and reading, not many people are going to bother spending all of that time learning how to potentially acquire a very small chance at doing a very specific thing, like manufacturing drugs or building machines, especially if you're working alone. Because you'll still have to be doing things to survive while you spend an entire month trying to get to level one in a circumstantial skill that carries an absurd risk of failure, I would think that it would benefit any and every player to just disregard the skill entirely.

Making things arbitrarily take longer or harder to accomplish does NOT in any way shape or form, make it more applicable or relevant to the game. I would argue that it makes it even worse, as arbitrary difficulty that strong-arms the player into specific behavior is always more limiting to the experience.

I also want to point out that building a fence that stands up to normal weather is not as easy as the game makes it seem, but in the interest of game play the concession was made not to make you dig post holes, mix concrete sink posts and so on.

Building a fence and creating drugs/machines aren't the same thing. As for schools, this is in Kentucky. I've never lived or gone to school in Kentucky, but I've been there quite a few times and from what I've seen, Kentucky isn't exactly known for its world-class engineers or medical professionals. While I'm sure people like that may exist in Kentucky, it's downright foolish to think an Average Joe from Kentucky would have the capacity to do those things.

I do want to say that any system should not take away from the core game play of killing zombies, but I will say that my wife is very interested in buying the game because she likes the idea of building additions to the houses and such. She has stated that she would most likely just turn the zombies off.

 

Take away from the core gameplay of killing zombies? Killing zombies is not a part of the core gameplay in Project Zomboid. This is not a zombie killing game. It's a survival game that contains zombies as an obstacle, and killing them is in no way shape or form the focus of the gameplay. No matter what you're doing, even if your personal goal IS to eliminate as many zeds as possible, survival comes first. Whether you forage or grow food, whether you hide and avoid threats or face them head-on, without surviving there is no gameplay.

 

Chemists and the like who make medication go to school for a very long time, earn very good marks, and aren't even allowed to practice their craft without being in a controlled environment. I find the idea that you could simply learn to do it from a book (spending fifteen days reading a single book =/= more knowledge or practice) completely asinine. Same with building most machines. Building simple constructs/tools, like putting together a home-made wheelbarrow or plow, rigging up crude traps and warning systems... These are things I'd expect to be able to actually learn and accomplish from a book.

Surgeons typically practice on synthetic organs/patients or cadavers under supervision after many years of college and study. It's galling to think that someone could self teach themselves any type of surgery or drug synthesis through text alone, especially in such a short period of time IN ADDITION to fending off the goo-bags and staying well-fed. And as I've said, arbitrarily giving it a high chance to fail doesn't make it more fitting or suited to the game... If you're making something difficult for the sake of making it hard, it shouldn't be just because you wanted to nerf it so it gets implemented. 

[Suffokate]

Rorek, good to see you again.

 

On topic: Well, I wouldn't find it unrealistic to eventually run in to somebody that studied pharmacology in a zombocalypse. Even if you did, it would probably be near impossible to gather up the equipment and ingredients for him to complete the task, aside from the time it would take. 

[uberevan]

I agree with no medicine. No one would dig through that warehouse and say: "Hey!Flunisolide propionate!"

But I think that you could definitely achieve some basic machinery with pre-built parts. It's not like we're making something from scratch. One producer even said he wants you to be able to take apart and move alarms and be able to set them off somewhere else with a remote to lure away zeds from your fort. I certainly think that something like that could work, but we're not building something like a freaking tank or a gatling gun. Average Joe could probably figure out really basic mechanics out given he figured out how to build stable housing with no problem. Not saying that mechanics are easy are anything, but I think you could figure it out if your life depended on it and you had enough time.

[Fj45]

I agree with no medicine. No one would dig through that warehouse and say: "Hey!Flunisolide propionate!"

But I think that you could definitely achieve some basic machinery with pre-built parts. It's not like we're making something from scratch. One producer even said he wants you to be able to take apart and move alarms and be able to set them off somewhere else with a remote to lure away zeds from your fort. I certainly think that something like that could work, but we're not building something like a freaking tank or a gatling gun. Average Joe could probably figure out really basic mechanics out given he figured out how to build stable housing with no problem. Not saying that mechanics are easy are anything, but I think you could figure it out if your life depended on it and you had enough time.

 

A system like this was mentioned in a recent Mondoid.

 

 

I also want to point out that building a fence that stands up to normal weather is not as easy as the game makes it seem, but in the interest of game play the concession was made not to make you dig post holes, mix concrete sink posts and so on.

 

 

When the carpentry system is expanded, I really hope that things like this are added. It would make building walls much more realistic and interesting. 

[Obinhi]

 

Not bad points at all rath, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the PC being special ;D. I want to clarify that my implication of the school was not retention but instead the fact that schools are already in place to provide a base of potential study. Further more there should be one hell of alot of error when it comes to trial and error.

The Devs have said the PC is an average Joe. You can think they're special all you like, that doesn't mean that everyone else has to consider them super Joe when it comes to adding features.

 

I'm not understanding the mentality of people making a suggestion, then when it isn't accepted by the community, they always seem to add "But it would have an extremely high risk of failure!" or "It'll take WEEKS/MONTHS/YEARS to do!" or both.

Project Zomboid, for all intents and purposes, is still a video game. If it isn't fun, people aren't going to give a shit and that's the bottom line. If it took weeks on end of just sitting around and reading, not many people are going to bother spending all of that time learning how to potentially acquire a very small chance at doing a very specific thing, like manufacturing drugs or building machines, especially if you're working alone. Because you'll still have to be doing things to survive while you spend an entire month trying to get to level one in a circumstantial skill that carries an absurd risk of failure, I would think that it would benefit any and every player to just disregard the skill entirely.

Making things arbitrarily take longer or harder to accomplish does NOT in any way shape or form, make it more applicable or relevant to the game. I would argue that it makes it even worse, as arbitrary difficulty that strong-arms the player into specific behavior is always more limiting to the experience.

I also want to point out that building a fence that stands up to normal weather is not as easy as the game makes it seem, but in the interest of game play the concession was made not to make you dig post holes, mix concrete sink posts and so on.

Building a fence and creating drugs/machines aren't the same thing. As for schools, this is in Kentucky. I've never lived or gone to school in Kentucky, but I've been there quite a few times and from what I've seen, Kentucky isn't exactly known for its world-class engineers or medical professionals. While I'm sure people like that may exist in Kentucky, it's downright foolish to think an Average Joe from Kentucky would have the capacity to do those things.

I do want to say that any system should not take away from the core game play of killing zombies, but I will say that my wife is very interested in buying the game because she likes the idea of building additions to the houses and such. She has stated that she would most likely just turn the zombies off.

 

Take away from the core gameplay of killing zombies? Killing zombies is not a part of the core gameplay in Project Zomboid. This is not a zombie killing game. It's a survival game that contains zombies as an obstacle, and killing them is in no way shape or form the focus of the gameplay. No matter what you're doing, even if your personal goal IS to eliminate as many zeds as possible, survival comes first. Whether you forage or grow food, whether you hide and avoid threats or face them head-on, without surviving there is no gameplay.

 

Chemists and the like who make medication go to school for a very long time, earn very good marks, and aren't even allowed to practice their craft without being in a controlled environment. I find the idea that you could simply learn to do it from a book (spending fifteen days reading a single book =/= more knowledge or practice) completely asinine. Same with building most machines. Building simple constructs/tools, like putting together a home-made wheelbarrow or plow, rigging up crude traps and warning systems... These are things I'd expect to be able to actually learn and accomplish from a book.

Surgeons typically practice on synthetic organs/patients or cadavers under supervision after many years of college and study. It's galling to think that someone could self teach themselves any type of surgery or drug synthesis through text alone, especially in such a short period of time IN ADDITION to fending off the goo-bags and staying well-fed. And as I've said, arbitrarily giving it a high chance to fail doesn't make it more fitting or suited to the game... If you're making something difficult for the sake of making it hard, it shouldn't be just because you wanted to nerf it so it gets implemented. 

 

 

 

Ok, first off, I would ask that you get into the following page: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/

 

Now, I dont think anywhere I motioned to have the PC go from nobody to master chemical engineer. I am saying that for survival people who get sick will try just about anything to get better. Being sick sucks. 

 

Do you know how to cut out an ingrown toe nail? Most likely not, but damn it if you wont try to get the thing out when it starts to get infected. 

 

The PC can be a cop/fire fighter. Emergency Responders are all trained in basic first aid and how to do basic life saving tasks. Who here honestly knows how to treat for shock? I would say not a lot of you.  How quick would you learn if it was a life or death matter? Pretty damn quick I would say.

 

I am also a bit discouraged buy the argument "If you let people do X, then they will build SPACE SHIPS OMG NOOOOOOOOO"

 

No one is asking for anything that will break the mood of the game. But as the Dev team has also said, they take the Zombie survival guide as just that, a guide.

 

Page 71 bullet point 8: Advanced Medical Kit (must include field surgery implements and antibiotics) 

 

So by the counter arguements the dumb ass you are playing as would do what with a med kit? Put the stitches in his pee hole to conserve water?

 

come on.

 

I also would like to mention that my fun is not your fun. I for one do get off on the whole realism thing. I like it to be hard to do things that seem easy. I love it when something that seems like it is not such a big deal kicks me in the nuts down the road. 

 

I get the fact that you don't want to play that way, but just because you don't see value in a medical skill or science skill does not mean others wont. If it is implemented in game you never have to use it. At the end of the day the build of the game does not give a lot of clues to what recipes are anyway so you could play the game for years and never know how to build a simple wind mill if you didn't want to.

 

Oh and doing a window tour of Kentucky doth not make you an expert on the state, which is no more or less competent then any other state despite what stereotypes would have you believe.

 

So TL;DR - No one is asking for the PC to be a college level anything by reading a poxie book. What is being asked for is the ability to treat basic ailments and build basic constructs out of available materials to help with basic tasks. The request also asks that one would get better at doing said tasks with time. The request understands that some of the elements of medical and engineering skills could break the game, and suggests ways to bring the skills back into balance ( ie fuel consumption, makes you sleepy, trial and error can kill you ect.)

[Rathlord]

You're arguing against no one Obhini. No one is disagreeing that basic mechanics and medicine should not be added to the game. In fact, I even have a suggestion for a medical overhaul in another thread. People are just saying it needs to be done in moderation and not over the top (which you seemingly agree with) so I'm not sure what the point of your post or the kinda rude tone was for =|

[RorekSR]

You're arguing against no one Obhini. No one is disagreeing that basic mechanics and medicine should not be added to the game. In fact, I even have a suggestion for a medical overhaul in another thread. People are just saying it needs to be done in moderation and not over the top (which you seemingly agree with) so I'm not sure what the point of your post or the kinda rude tone was for =|

He's not used to the Sandwich Method. 

 

 

Over exaggerating and extrapolating details to insult or belittle the individual you're replying to isn't helpful to anyone, Obhini. In fact, you're more likely to make people disregard your post (which could, for all intents and purposes have meaningful or useful insight) because why would anyone want to offer counter-points or continue a conversation with an individual who will only complain, attack "opposition", and act the fool because he thinks his thoughts are more valid or correct. 

 

Your post is hard to read and you're also making out of context references to details that I haven't even touched upon (I haven't mentioned the ZSG for as long as I've been on this forum, for example.) and your harsh attitude makes you seem really angry at something that really shouldn't be affecting your blood pressure the way it is. Not to mention, you completely missed the points I actually made (Like how having arbitrary difficulty in everything you do will simply keep most people from even trying more than a couple of times, if that. Dumping mass resources into something with a high chance to fail and/or kill yourself? Yeah, argue all you want about how "my fun isn't your fun" the fact is, nearly all people will simply disregard it to find other "fun" things that won't arbitrarily end their game. Google "Strategic Dominance.") because you seem to think that, "I would do this so you're entirely wrong and also a bit stupid" is a meaningful addition to this topic of discussion. It's not, as I've now written two paragraphs addressing you and your personal problems with my personal opinion, which I am fully entitled to and can only be changed by meaningful dialogue and not be refuted outright as you are attempting to do.

 

As for your "TL;DR" bit... Plenty of people did ask for that. And more. Synthesizing drugs? Building machines from scratch? something like "Your life depends on it" won't allow you to manifest the know-how and let you just "figure shit out." People don't go to medical school for eight years+ just because their life doesn't depend on it and they're taking their sweet time. Saying, "You could do it if your life depended on it" isn't a point in favor of the topic at hand because it's a moot point. It's pure conjecture.

 

If I was starving slowly and had to figure out how to farm crops, sure, I could go out back with a trowel and start "figuring it out" because "my life depends on it." You know what would probably happen? I'd starve to death before I made any meaningful headway. Me needing the information doesn't just will it into my brain because I'll die without it. I'd still need to obtain the information elsewhere and have a chance to practice my hand at making use of it sometime BEFORE I starve if I want it to be a meaningful addition to my skill set.

People generally don't think or act rationally when their lives are in immediate danger. I'd say that your life depending on working out how to build a generator or synthesize a cure to dysentery would only compound your stress and make it harder to focus or work on the task at hand.

[uberevan]

 

I agree with no medicine. No one would dig through that warehouse and say: "Hey!Flunisolide propionate!"

But I think that you could definitely achieve some basic machinery with pre-built parts. It's not like we're making something from scratch. One producer even said he wants you to be able to take apart and move alarms and be able to set them off somewhere else with a remote to lure away zeds from your fort. I certainly think that something like that could work, but we're not building something like a freaking tank or a gatling gun. Average Joe could probably figure out really basic mechanics out given he figured out how to build stable housing with no problem. Not saying that mechanics are easy are anything, but I think you could figure it out if your life depended on it and you had enough time.

 

A system like this was mentioned in a recent Mondoid.

AAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAH

RorekSR: What was that about fighting in the arena of logic unarmed ;D