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Some thoughts about armor


Tankred

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Suomiboi, yes I agree that if armour is too unstiff and thin (such as a half centimetre of duckt tape, which is a bit wasteful and not ideal, but if you're in a warehouse full of duckt tape go for it and make it thicker) you can still get hurt beneath it by bites if the zombie can actually get his jaw firmly on it, but I do not understand what you say about the metal armour being hard to move in, could you please explain? You certainly could make some that's hard to move in, but that would be silly. In my experience, it's easy to make arm protection that doesn't restrict movement noticably.
I will provide links to pictures of metal armour, the form of which can be made not too difficultly.
 
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Perhaps not many people know how to get the cupping on the elbow, but apart from that most people should be able to make things just like that.
If you've not got access to sheets of metal, you can use cutlery:
 
big_img_20100215100619.jpg

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It could certainly be enough... But a survivor that demonstrates a bit of ingenuity should be rewarded for it. If you have a survivor with a kind of skill that could possibly be used to make really durable clothing, they should be allowed to go for it. I've got access to tools that let me cut and punch holes in sheet metal. If I find some way to fasten it onto the outside of a shirt or jacket to keep from being bitten, I should be allowed to do just that.

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rarity of parts, ok. but as we have a construction worker as one of the traits, it would not be uncommon for a construction worker to know how to work with materials like aluminum siding. most of my friends do or have done siding, soffit and facia/crown moulding work. get hold of one of the big rolls of aluminum coil they use to wrap garage doors, pillars and to place under eaves (soffit) and you could make a couple dozen arm and shin guards, out of aluminum which is obviously fairly light and easy to work with. weight would really not be an issue, an entire roll of aluminum coil, at 24 inches wide and 150 feet long is 76 pounds (the biggest roll they have) http://www.alscometals.com/products/coil2.php

 

just a matter fine tuning it really.

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I think that a good disadvantage would be risk of injury from poorly wrought parts. Freshly cut sheet metal is sharp and, know-how or not, making armor out of sheet metal isn't exactly a commonly practiced skill. So any armor made out of sheet metal by an amateur would run the risk of cutting the person wearing it. So unless the person who made the armor has gotten enough skill to do the job properly, anyone wearing the armor will gradually accumulate small nicks and scratches over the areas where they're wearing it.

 

Not serious on their own, but each cut you get needs to be cleaned out and bandaged to avoid getting a bacterial infection which puts a strain on medical supplies. And if you've gotten into a lot of conflict with the living dead and your armor is covered in zombie gore... It would increase odds of getting infected unless you regularly cleaned and maintained the armor to keep from smearing the gore all over yourself. That should apply with all clothing, really, but poorly made armor would increase the odds drastically.

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I know that many things are possible in real life and people with the knowhow can make this stuff ;) .

 

But this is a survival game, not a medival rpgame, were you need a full platemail to kill a dragon. Parts are rare (possibly looted by someone else and taken to the "ass of the world").

 

I hope for a better loot-/itemsystem where you not found in every elementaryschool or kindergarten a 9mm pistol or shotgun (I know kids are evil ;) ).

 

Armor needs a disadvantage or Z's aren't a threat anymore, even if it's (unrealistic) poor condition.

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I know that many things are possible in real life and people with the knowhow can make this stuff ;) .

But this is a survival game, not a medival rpgame, were you need a full platemail to kill a dragon. Parts are rare (possibly looted by someone else and taken to the "ass of the world").

I hope for a better loot-/itemsystem where you not found in every elementaryschool or kindergarten a 9mm pistol or shotgun (I know kids are evil ;) ).

Armor needs a disadvantage or Z's aren't a threat anymore, even if it's (unrealistic) poor condition.

We pretty much all are aware of the fact that this is no RPG. The whole "full plate armor" thing only Shows that there is much overreaction when it comes to armor. Considering the "metal armor" i guess i can Talk for all when i say, no one is talking of a full plate knight armor. What we are talking about is 2 mm sheetmetal or Aluminium bent around your forearms and shins. Cause especially because this is a survival game, every rational thinking beeing would try to get protection against the infection. Even though avoidance is the Best protection doesn't mean, one wouldn't want proper protection. So armor is pretty obvious topic. The urge for even the least amount of protection brought up ductapearmor and Magazine around arms. Because it's more protecting than a T-shirt.

To get back to the sheet metal/Aluminium. Like said we don't Talk about knight armor. Just metal bent around the lower limbs. I'm working with metal all Day so this would be a really obvious thing to me (i even could make those 'armor' without hurtig myself). But it's just sheetmetal. You can bend it with your bare hands. It's no wonderarmor and we don't Talk about blacksmithing.

A common human has a Biting force of 800 N/cm2. A zombie not caring for a hurtig jaw may even have 1000 N/cm2. The teeth won't penetrate the metal (that's the point of the metalsheet) but it would bend and you still would get really Bad injuries (broken bones, torn skin) but you won't get infected and you could have a Chance for the teeth to just slide a long the metal if the zombie doesn't get a full bite. This leads to the next downside. Applying or removing armor takes time and you need to remove it to treat your wound underneath (Imagine a ducttaped arm under that condition....nasty)

The noise is not a matter if you don't wear a full plate...Because it's just strapped to your limbs. Heat would be, another reason to just use it on the limbs (i wouldn't make holes for heat transition, it makes the metal weaker). But still with wearing it at the limbs you'll get a heat malus.

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 i guess i can Talk for all when i say, no one is talking of a full plate knight armor.

You'd be surprised about how many have actually suggested this...

 

-snip-

Still all of your example pictures are from skilled and trained blacksmiths. I understand that it wouldn't be that difficult to make something similar out of sheet metal, but I think it wouldn't be nearly as fitting as those made by professionals in their trade. There are reasons why blacksmithing was a trade other than just knowing how to bend the metal in this regard. Ok, I agree that something like an extended wrist band could work without movement issues, but to make the legs and other body parts fit snuggly and not slipping off/injuring you would be quite a challenge to say the least. We're talking about average Joes here, not trained metal cutters... That said if we're to have such a profession I wouldn't be against this sort of things to be implemented, with it's ups and downs, but I'd still rather point out what's been said above me:

 

At the risk of repeating everything everyone has ever said I'll be brief.

 

If you're getting into a position where armour is the only thing stopping you from being bitten, it's too late for you. 

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At the risk of repeating everything everyone has ever said I'll be brief.

 

If you're getting into a position where armour is the only thing stopping you from being bitten, it's too late for you. 

Not necessarily. If you're swarmed from all sides and the zeds are dragging you to the ground, you're dead no two ways about it. If you're running through a warehouse to escape a group of zombies, head out through the door and walk straight into a horde there won't be any way for you to get out of that regardless of what you're wearing.

 

If I walk into a house and my leg gets bitten by a crawler, the sheet metal shin guards would prevent me from getting a huge chunk taken out of my legs. If I walk around a corner and am immediately grabbed by a zed I didn't see, having sheet metal arm guards would greatly prevent my being bitten on the arms while I'm struggling to fight it off and run. When ambushed by small numbers it might give you the short few seconds necessary to break grip and run before they rest of the zeds converge on you and seal your fate. 

 

Saying that armor is useless in all scenarios where it would be needed is incorrect.

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I think a good idea for armor would be sports padding. You could have a football helmet to protect your head (but it would be really rare) and you could find padding like shin guards, chest pads, elbow pads etc. Maybe you could even find a jockstrap to protect the groin?

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I will address two issues that have been stated.
1. The ability of people to make armour.
2. The effectiveness of armour.
Because people point at one almost-problem, the solution to which is so obvious I didn't even bother mentioning, I will try and mention lots of them here. Pointing out an almost-problem with an easy peasy lemon squeezey solution as if it's a serious problem isn't clever, it's dim.
I have absolutely no training as a blacksmith. The only things people have taught me about it worth mentioning are hitting the metal over a sandbag to "dome" it, and some things about tempering and annealing.
I have also read a few real life "skill books" on the subject, to use Zomboid terms :P
 




1. The ability to make armour.
It seems some people aren't even trying to imagine how they could make armour. If someone's brain isn't capable of that, then he's probably not going to be a survivor for very long. Most people in this are zombies. The survivors are exceptional in being, on average, better. If you don't even know how to make armour, you're probably going to be a zombie. Some people know how to make armour. If there's a zombie plague, and they have enough notice, then they are going to make armour. Indeed professional armoures today take months to make the best 15h century armour, and have lots of specialist tools. You can make armour without all those tools, and without all that time, but it would be less good than a knight's armour.

For demonstration, I've just made some armour out of cutlery and gaffer tape.

This style of armour was made before they could easily make large sheets of metal:
big_img_20100215100619.jpg

Below is some like armour made of cutlery. Yes my camera is bad.
Eighteen butterknives upon a teatowel doubled over twice. To the right you see twenty forks duckt taped together in case I need to fix my armour, and also some spoons. You can flatten forks and spoons.
post-8290-0-24364100-1393696593_thumb.pn
The butterknives are taped together weakly with single-layer straps of weak duckt tape, because I was not that comitted to it. This is just one way of making splinted armour. If there were zombies, you would use thicker straps made of many layers of duckt tape or something else, or you could use string, and it would be woven very tightly. You could also drill holes in them and rivet them to leather, not ideal I think. You could lay them on leather and sew them onto it.

Below is a picture of it as it is worn.
post-8290-0-38571100-1393696585_thumb.pn
You need no special skill to make this as long as you're not a tiny person who hasn't yet learnt to climb. All you need is cutlery.
No zombie is going to bit through a butterknife. With this on my arm, my jaws can at most span four butterknives. When I bite, my jaws pinch no skin at all, I can only encompass a few butterknives and some teatowel. My mouth just isn't big enough to pinch any skin. I cannot sink my teel into it at the weak reserved force I am using, because my teel just slide off, and that's without my arm struggling.
My forearm is now immune to human bites, and probably weak slashes from swords too.
My only concern about this armour against zombies is that if they keep biting it too much, they may eventually gnaw through some of the straps/lacing. I ask you all to remember what happenes when you try and gnaw through a single peice of string. It's really hard.

Plate armour:
My guide to making armour for people who don't have any idea how to do anything with their hands.
post-8290-0-27688000-1393696603_thumb.pn

And now my special advanced guide to not wearing armour with sharp edges:
File the edges.
Put some hide or duckt tape over them or roll them over on themselves with plyers or a hammer.
Genius.
Another picture:
post-8290-0-53895200-1393696607_thumb.pn
 
 
 
2. The effectiveness of armour.
 
Butterknife vambraces, if fixed securely with plenty of strong string, would be quite effective and durable.
Baking trays are thin. If you want to make strong armour out of thin metal, then one thing you can do is have layers of it riveted together. How to make a rivet: Cut a nail short with some plyers or a hacksaw. Once you have it thick enough not to buckle under the force of a zombie's jaw, add a little bit more.
If you have a forge you can then weld them together.
Forge: Gas canister + valve + bricks/stones + lighter/matches
An enclosed space where the gas from the gas canister burns and the metal gets red hot.
Welding: Metal to be welded + forge + hammer
More sturdy than just riveting.
 
Plate armour like this is better than splinted armour.
 
It is possible to make armour that completely saves you from the injury of a bite.
 
 
So when you go out of your huge multi-story wooden fortress with rain barrels and a farm, which you built in a few months after spending a few hours reading some books, you can also have some skillfully made armour on your own body that you also made in a few months after reading a few books about armour and metalworking.
No more need for bare-back zombie wrestling.

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I'm not going to answer the whole thing, because it'd take just too much time atm, but I'll address a few points on your post that are a bit flawed imo.

1. Firstly, the fact that our character "has survived so far" has no relation to the intelligence or survival abilities of the character. The devs have specifically said that the character is an average Joe and in no way special. The survivors left are on average, average. The fact that your deduction has caused a different solution is just a matter of opinion where I disagree.

This difference in opinion is I think detrimental to what our characters should be able to do.

2. The fact that you keep saying that anyone with some thinking abilities would be able to do this, honestly slightly annoys me. Now I don't mean to offend with this, but I think that's a bit of an undermining statement. Many people will not even think about these kinds of things when put in a situation like this.

3. The fact that you can build a 3 story building in a matter of months with no experience in the subject doesn't mean imo you should. I think it should be behind a lot more work. This I included because I don't like subjects being reasoned by an irrelevant point to that particular subject.

Otherwise I have mostly made my arguments in this topic and stand by my statements that while this is definitely plausible, it is not practical. Let me die in a zombocalypse if not. :P Lastly I'd like to say that of course there needs to be a balance of fun and realism and if this sort of thing was to be implemented, I wouldn't be toting against it or for it to be removed.

Well it did take a while after all, but I think I got my points across. :D

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1. Aah, alright. Well then if that's what they say then I accept that.

 

2. :/  Perhaps what I said was a bit off. A lot of the times I read what people have written on the internet, I see things that are intellectually devoid. I think what got me here was someone saying that armour would be of no help whatsoever. That really made me...... English has a lot of words, but no word for this. Imagine a person staring with raised eyebrows and one eye twitching.

I may have assumed that because something is obvious to me, then it must be obvious to other people too, or at least people clever enough to be surviving a zombocalypse (but in this absolutely anyone can be a survivor so perhaps only some of them shall find it easy). I would still be utterly gobsmacked though if some people did not know how to attach things to their forearms.

I also still consider bluntening sharp edges to be something that is not hard to do in the slightest, and challenge anyone to wear sharp metal that cuts them without thinking of bluntening it.

 

3. The huge building thing was not really part of an arguement, just something I took the oppertunity to mention because it is similar.

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Not sure if this feature is in game but it think that clothing  should reduce the chance of getting scratched even without armor. If your wearing a sweater and heavy cargo pants, I think you would be alot better protected than if you were running around in your underwear.

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Not sure if this feature is in game but it think that clothing should reduce the chance of getting scratched even without armor. If your wearing a sweater and heavy cargo pants, I think you would be alot better protected than if you were running around in your underwear.

Not in yet, but will likely be added. This has been suggested many times. Probably in this thread even.

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More clothings is a must really, so clothing stores with jackets, jeans, boots, and such would help with weather (it adds a bit of weight), but also helps with pockets and even protection...

 

Military suits are possible if you want bulletproof stuff maybe...

Police suits, or even SWAT armor is technically possible but not very common in the sense of the rural-like location.

 

The current clothing should add some kind of protection versus zombies, most especially the jeans and shoes as those materials are tougher than the sweater and vests.

 

Having leather clothing would help with a modest level of weight reduction on the clothing itself, and weather resistance for rainy days, and to handle a bit of cold too, though the drawbacks is the limitation in the slots, which then makes backpacks or hand bags very necessary with it.

 

The dev states that your character is the average joe... Not a retarded simpleton. So a average joe, in the world, is likely to have the intelligence to reinforce clothings and sheets to make makeshift armors or clothings (stuffing sheets or newspaper into your sweater to be warmer for instance, and thickens the fabric).

 

Take a lot of glue, and glue layers upon layers of aluminum foil onto stationary parts of your clothing, a single sheet of aluminum foil might do little, but what about 10-20 layers of them? Of course you don't simply glue aluminum foil to your gloves, but you could make some neat makeshift ankle protectors to wear over your shoes so you don't get bit there... Or shoulder or knee pads in that case.

 

Even without crafting there exists stuff called 'helmets'.

 

The ability and the intelligence to craft, modify, and create makeshift objects, is something that has been apart of humanity for tens of centuries.

 

Also regarding a average's joe state of mind: Those who can survive weeks or even months, will start to adapt and get USED to the zombie apocalypse, and in doing so they will feel the need to better themselves in order to survive. You think an average joe will mope around for the rest of his life after learning his wife has been killed? Nope, those who get out of the inital depression will get stronger... Because "What doesn't kill you does make you stronger".

 

The thing I don't get, is how people are so attached to their current lifestyles that they believe that no one would survive things like this at all. Also, this is only mere zombies and the deadly environments, we haven't gotten NPCs, psycopaths, and other challenges that players would have to face (big bad military units with machine guns and "clean-up crews" for instance).

 

@Gaffa Tape Warrior: You do realize it doesn't have to be metal right?

Humans have been carving out stuff from wood for centuries, so it's not hard to find carpentry knife and axe to get wood, and carve them into pieces which can be bound to clothing with a rope to create makeshift armor.

 

I'm pretty sure hardware stores sells pieces of wood and metal quite commonly too so they tend to be well stocked in that case. Even in rural areas, home owners needs to repair often, so these things are actually common.

 

ArmorTypes.jpg

What's most common about the rabbit and rodent's armor, is that they are more makeshift and consists of wooden plates and bushes... So in that case there's also stealth factor by using the greenery or even fur.

a017249.jpgThis armor is from here.

Also with modern day hardware, places like car repair places has welders to weld metal to pieces that's glued to clothing, so that's technically possible. And the welder isn't used for armor making alone, as it's vital for armor plating cars too for instance, and repairing parts of a car, etc.

 

Crafting does evolve as survivors live on though, but in PZ's case, it's more of a 'containment' scenario so it's limited to stuff within a period of a month at most maybe.

 

But first and foremost, using belts (exists ingame) to wear and act as weapon holsters. They can also be used to strap wood plates to armor for instance. Makeshift armors is likely something bandits would focus on though. Heck... Rope alone can be used as a armor if you bound them around your ankles, and collar.

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OK

 

New?

 

Yes.

 

About to question certain logic points?

 

Yes.

 

Troll?

 

Nope!

 

Having been a previous LARP dork i can say a lot of this with fair certainty.

 

I see a lot of mentions of medieval styled armors. It is one simple fact that all that metal makes a hell of a racket. Ever hear a Knight get off his horse at a Renfair? Sounds like someones dropping a bunch of pots. Just walking down the street is gonna be like turning on a can opener in the cat ladies apartment. Chain-mail (while not difficult to make with a single pair of tin snips, a large screw driver and a ton of heavy gauge wire) is still going to be heard from twenty feet away unless the person was barely moving at all. 

 

I see a lot of good ideas from modern arenas; leathers, motorcycle suits (though I question mobility), kevlar. These would be good for the sole survivor to remain quiet and undetected as he combed his way through the cities and towns looking for supplies.

 

Here is what I will say about the medieval armor; They would be damn effective in combat situations. A Sweeper squad utilizing gear like this, but perhaps more modernized (I picture the motorcycle suit plated up), would walk through a horde with little problem. The goal being to wipe out the zombies, all the noise would be justified.

 

My point is that I think there can be different uses to the different types of armor. You aren't going to bring a lawn mower to a logging competition. Each tool has its purpose and there will need to be many to fit the different play styles.

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Ummm no thats a horrible idea and would get you killed. If you used medieval armor like a full suite of plate to try and walk through an entire horde, the only thing thats going to happen to you is your going to be grabbed all over and smothered to death. Eventually the Zombies would rip it off of you like your a shell crab and then you would get eaten to death if you didn't die from a heatstroke first.

 

If the devs do add armor, i hope they balance it out so you aren't force to use it if you don't want to. The below is a good system I think that could be used to balance armor appropriately.

 

Heavy Clothing (leather jackets, trench coats, thigh-boots, ect)

- Increase temperature and fatigue

- Reduces the chance of being scratched

 

Light Armor (Football Gear, Paper armor, ect)

- Increase temperature and fatigue

- Decreases sprinting speed

- Cannot Sneak

- Reduces chance of being scratched by a large amount

- Reduces chance of being bitten

- Reduces chance of injuries causing bleeding

 

Heavy Armor (Riot Gear)

- Increase temperature and fatigue by a large amount

- Causes loud noise

- Cannot Sprint

- Cannot be scratched

- Reduces chance of being bitten by a large amount

- Reduces chance of injuries causing bleeding

- Automatically encumbered if character doesn't have the strong/stout trait

 

Specialized Armor

- Kevlar vest ( makes you immune to any torso related injuries, but doesn't protect any other part of the body. Same disadvantages of light armor

- Motorcycle Helmet (Makes you immune to head injuries but drastically reduces vision and hearing. Has no weight)

 

Also note that armor would need to have a long equip/unequip time so that you can't just throw it off superfast in a situation that would be disadvantageous. Also every time your hit your armor durability would drop, eventually resulting in it breaking and being torn off by the angry Zeds.

 

I would imagine armor would be most useful to bandits and raiders. Against Zombies you usually want agility but a PVP raiding group main goal would be to take supplies so being able to hold and take ground would be essential..

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Heavy Armor (Riot Gear)

- Increase temperature and fatigue by a large amount

- Causes loud noise

- Cannot Sprint

- Cannot be scratched

- Reduces chance of being bitten by a large amount

- Reduces chance of injuries causing bleeding

- Automatically encumbered if character doesn't have the strong/stout trait

I agree to everything except not being able to sprint in Riot Gear. I think you should be able to sprint a little slower and for a little less amount of time in Riot Gear/heavy armor. Except if you have the "overweight" trait (i don't remember the exact name of the trait).

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