Mental Health Discussion Thread

[GSC]

The main reason I avoided a positive trait is twofold:

1) Screen clutter. It's always better to have less moodles up

2) Because there really isn't a 'positive' for being sane in real life. You're just sane.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with a positive sanity moodle, but neither do I feel it's necessary.

You can have 0 moodles active at a time or several. It depends on your situation. I don't think more indicators of your condition are necessarily bad. It's just information. Also: positive sanity would be rare and somewhat difficult to achieve.

 

I firmly believe there should be at least one positive level, which comes with some minor perks, just like being the well fed. If nothing else, it would indicate that you are doing well and are fairly safe from hitting the negative side of the scale in the near future (again, similar to hunger being staved off).

 

The first negative level you recommended is unbalanced, the opposite of that would logically be balanced, which is an achievable (non-default) positive state that affects behavior and thinking - even in real life, when there are no zombies. And it does have advantages in terms of social relations, confidence, physical health, general mood etc. It could be similar in the game.

 

In my view there is also an "all stick, no carrot" side to this. Most of the moodles you can have are bad. This could be one that you can actually improve over time. I'd like that.

[Suomiboi]

 

Panic already does affect reloading and accuracy quite heavily. Have you tried reloading the shotgun when the panic moodle is red? It's like 1 shell in 4-5 seconds (real time, not game time). I usually take beta blockers right before I start shooting, but the panic sets in even so, if only temporarily. I have to walk away from the horde chasing me saying "lalala there's nothing there" so that the pills can take effect and I can reload.

Allright haven't noticed that I use shotguns so little and propably always been panicking like hell, as it's a last resort for me, but great to hear that it's already in game! There's propably so much I need to learn by playing rather than come here and rant about stuff that's already in .

[Brandon354]

Maybe NPCs (when implemented and further down the line) could have their own unique and shared sets of acquirable and already set/ born with mental states also ex: phobias, paranoid, insane,  bi-polar, etc.

 

I agree with most of this idea, but I don't think the imbalanced people should be hearing random sounds and they should receive a tiny bit less rest out of sleep. You could possibly add mistaking a human NPC for a zombie for a split second when unstable.

[Ontogenesis]

I personally would prefer a more in-depth system for mental health in the game, instead of just a single insanity bar. For example, if we take the ICD-10 (European equivalent of the DSM) under the 'mental and behavioural disorders' section we can see the massive variety of disorders: http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en

 

I'd take a few general areas for the game: depression, anxiety, bipolar affective, schizophrenia and possibly personality disorder.

 

I also think there should be no 'cheating', i.e. a special moodle for depression. I think I need a few hours to write out exactly how I would imagine it... might do it this weekend!

[Kitt Frostpaws]

For some reason I Am reminded of the Rogue survivor insanity.. 

I like this.

[Rathlord]

I personally would prefer a more in-depth system for mental health in the game, instead of just a single insanity bar. For example, if we take the ICD-10 (European equivalent of the DSM) under the 'mental and behavioural disorders' section we can see the massive variety of disorders: http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en

 

I'd take a few general areas for the game: depression, anxiety, bipolar affective, schizophrenia and possibly personality disorder.

 

I also think there should be no 'cheating', i.e. a special moodle for depression. I think I need a few hours to write out exactly how I would imagine it... might do it this weekend!

 

This was what I had in mind originally but in the back of my head I just can't quiet the nagging urge for simplicity. There is, certainly, a divers and disparate amount of mental disorders in the world but I just don't think that trying to represent that many in game is feasible. If we tried to implement even 10 different disorders along with causes and effects it would be by far the most complex system in the entire game currently.

 

Perhaps a better way to do it would be to have a certain large set of symptoms that are possible to get when insane, and then have a small subset be randomly chosen for your character at creation for what he/she will suffer from if they happen to go insane.

 

And @Brandon the idea behind Imbalanced is that it's still a severe mental impairment, just not on the level of full insanity. Like I said, this should be a very slow building moodle so if you're suffering from it at all it should mean a serious malady.

[Brandon354]

And @Brandon the idea behind Imbalanced is that it's still a severe mental impairment, just not on the level of full insanity. Like I said, this should be a very slow building moodle so if you're suffering from it at all it should mean a serious malady.

Okay but if it is going to be that way I would prefer a warning moodle that doesn't have any negative effects like when you start to become hungry or thirsty (so you know it is coming and you have a chance to reverse it before it affects you) I don't think it would be unrealistic as like you said it builds over time so i wouldn't just wake up imbalanced one day without prior warning that I was falling off the edge of sanity.

[Rathlord]

Good point, and maybe it would be better that way. I prefer to think of it as something that would build slowly but still creep up on you like insanity does in real life but that might not be the best from a gameplay perspective.

[Brandon354]

I don't know a whole lot about mental health i just assumed I wouldn't wake up insane, you seem to know more about this so if a warning moodle is unrealistic so be it.

[Rathlord]

I don't know a whole lot about mental health i just assumed I wouldn't wake up insane, you seem to know more about this so if a warning moodle is unrealistic so be it.

 

You're right that it's not exactly something you wake up with for sure. The reason I was considering little warning but long time to come is that the moodles are meant to show things that you can't see about your character, but would know if you were them. For instance, it's hard to show a "cold" character in visible terms, hence moodle. So my thought was, most people don't recognize that they're insane or getting there without professional help. So you might be long on your way, but not actually know that it's happening until you start hearing/seeing things.

 

On the other hand, stuff does need to be balanced from a gameplay as well as realism perspective. I'm keen to hear what other people think about this.

[k12314]

 

You're right that it's not exactly something you wake up with for sure. The reason I was considering little warning but long time to come is that the moodles are meant to show things that you can't see about your character, but would know if you were them. For instance, it's hard to show a "cold" character in visible terms, hence moodle. So my thought was, most people don't recognize that they're insane or getting there without professional help. So you might be long on your way, but not actually know that it's happening until you start hearing/seeing things.

 

On the other hand, stuff does need to be balanced from a gameplay as well as realism perspective. I'm keen to hear what other people think about this.

 

I think it can be represented easily. Simply have your character start seeing/hearing things that aren't a hindrance. Like, he turns around and sees a survivor threatening him with a gun who fades out of existence after a second, or possibly a zombie, etc. Basically, have all the pre-determined symptoms start very minor and slowly build to something serious, so if you don't do something about it or notice it early enough, you slowly go bonkers.

[Kajin]

Nothing would convince me I'm crazy quite like walking down to the first floor of my safe house to find a family of four sitting at the kitchen table having breakfast, only for them to vanish within seconds of me seeing them. Maybe walking by a window and noticing the curtain has been pulled back and a survivor is staring at me through it... Only I'm on the second floor and the curtain hasn't actually been opened. Or I'm walking through the hallways at night and I could swear that the walls have phantom eyes/

[k12314]

Nothing would convince me I'm crazy quite like walking down to the first floor of my safe house to find a family of four sitting at the Kitten table having breakfast, only for them to vanish within seconds of me seeing them. Maybe walking by a window and noticing the curtain has been pulled back and a survivor is staring at me through it... Only I'm on the second floor and the curtain hasn't actually been opened. Or I'm walking through the hallways at night and I could swear that the walls have phantom eyes/

 

And then you realize all those sleeping pills are really starting to kick the fuck in.

[arbozaliyan]

i hate mental state stuff. they did it in don't starve and now it is in project zomboid too. it is unrealistic and can not be tested. it is based on nothing but movies. well sir human mind is a very wonderful thing that can adapt to any kind of situation and when it can't, it just locks itself in. game is hard enough stop adding more unnecessary stuff  just to make it harder please. thanks.

[GSC]

Maybe NPCs (when implemented and further down the line) could have their own unique and shared sets of acquirable and already set/ born with mental states also ex: phobias, paranoid, insane,  bi-polar, etc.

The NPCs I met in previous builds of the game already seemed to have a wide variety of personal and mental issues

[Kajin]

i hate mental state stuff. they did it in don't starve and now it is in project zomboid too. it is unrealistic and can not be tested. it is based on nothing but movies. well sir human mind is a very wonderful thing that can adapt to any kind of situation and when it can't, it just locks itself in. game is hard enough stop adding more unnecessary stuff  just to make it harder please. thanks.

But isn't making it harder the overall point? The devs are gonna keep introducing neat things like new food sources, new water sources, new weapons, NPC alliances that'll help us keep on keeping on. That all has gotta be balanced by introducing new hindrances to balance out the difficulty or else they'll never accomplish the theme they're going for: that of utter hopelessness and eventual death.

 

I for one applaud the potential for a mental health system and welcome our new imaginary clown overlords.

[Rathlord]

i hate mental state stuff. they did it in don't starve and now it is in project zomboid too. it is unrealistic and can not be tested. it is based on nothing but movies. well sir human mind is a very wonderful thing that can adapt to any kind of situation and when it can't, it just locks itself in. game is hard enough stop adding more unnecessary stuff  just to make it harder please. thanks.

 

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Are you trying to suggest that humans don't go insane when put under vast, unimaginable amounts of horror combined with depression, fear, pain, loneliness, and sadness? It's more unrealistic not to have this in the game by far. This doesn't necessarily have to make the game harder, per say, either. If you're worried about it you can either try to take care of your character (like a person would take care of themselves in real life) or you could pick the trait that reduces your likelihood for insanity.

[zombo]

I've said many times I'm largely against most of the mental health stuff, it just doesn't feel realistic and I doubt it ever will.  I think it will always be a quirky weird thing, possibly buggy, and popping up in ways and at times that just feel wrong.  "Artificial difficulty" as some would say, rather than actually simulating a real thing.

 

I especially hate boredom as I really strongly believe that should be our problem in the real world.  If you're sitting around in your fortress and doing well, it should be your own decision that you are bored and want to experience more of the game.  Your real life boredom should push you to want to do more, not an in-game moodle.

 

Anyway, I realize over time most of the community likes this stuff and it's not going away.  All I hope for is a way to turn it off, like a sandbox option.  I don't care at all about chasing a high score, leaderboard so to speak, so as long as I have the option turn it off that would be fine for me.  However, many such sandbox options are being argued against so maybe it will have to be a mod.

[Rathlord]

I would actually rather see mental health than boredom to be entirely honest, although I can see why it's in there.

 

Mental health just needs to be done right. It's something that could add a lot to the game if done well- and it shouldn't be artificial difficulty. It should be something that only comes up when you've neglected to take care of yourself, just like would happen to someone in real life. It needs to not be a finicky on-again-off-again moodle like cold and some of the others. A slow, meaningful progression with apparent causes and relevant consequences I think would be an immersive and beneficial thing.

 

We can't let the fear of having something done poorly keep us from attempting it- that's the path to mediocrity! I could possibly see a Sandbox option for different moodles. It's not something I really want in the game, but I could see it happening. I would think that disabling any particular moodle would be as easy as modifying a single line of code- not that I'm using that as a justification of why it shouldn't be added.

[Brandon354]

I've said many times I'm largely against most of the mental health stuff, it just doesn't feel realistic and I doubt it ever will.  I think it will always be a quirky weird thing, possibly buggy, and popping up in ways and at times that just feel wrong.  "Artificial difficulty" as some would say, rather than actually simulating a real thing.

 

I especially hate boredom as I really strongly believe that should be our problem in the real world.  If you're sitting around in your fortress and doing well, it should be your own decision that you are bored and want to experience more of the game.  Your real life boredom should push you to want to do more, not an in-game moodle.

 

Anyway, I realize over time most of the community likes this stuff and it's not going away.  All I hope for is a way to turn it off, like a sandbox option.  I don't care at all about chasing a high score, leaderboard so to speak, so as long as I have the option turn it off that would be fine for me.  However, many such sandbox options are being argued against so maybe it will have to be a mod.

the boredom is reasonable though because you may not be bored after doing something for a hour but to them that hour was a day of doing that something, not that it really matters because as far as I can tell boredom doesn't do anything yet. I'm all for options but it isn't one that is needed right now since it doesn't do anything, and on a side note I see you noticed thee now locked thread.

[Kajin]

I like boredom. It's not a problem at all if you're running around doing something (which most of us will be doing anyway). But if you've got nothing to do and you're having your character just sit around the house for hours on end while waiting for your crops to grow or something? Anyone will go out of their mind if they did that. Boredom is a natural consequence of having nothing to do, and you're not gonna have anything at all to do if you've got all the food and water you could possibly need and you're just sitting behind the fortress-like walls of your safe house twiddling your thumbs while you wait for time to pass by.

 

There needs to be some extra game mechanics to balance things out so you've always got something to do, because anyone who is halfway competent at the game will eventually reach the point where they don't need anything else to survive and they're just waiting out the days until a horde punches through their door.

[zombo]

There needs to be some extra game mechanics to balance things out so you've always got something to do, because anyone who is halfway competent at the game will eventually reach the point where they don't need anything else to survive and they're just waiting out the days until a horde punches through their door.

I think it just comes down to different desires from the game.  As I said, I'm not a high score chaser, so for me when I run out of things to do I will be done with the game.  This is why I have often talked about later game stuff, advanced crafting and construction and bigger goals than basic survival.  If I am in that position where I am doing well, and a boredom mechanic is the only thing driving me to go out and do more of the same activities, then the fun is already over for me anyway.

 

To combat my real life boredom with the game at that time, I need something else to do.  So, if I have secured all of the basic survival needs then it's time for me to move on to bigger things, like electricity, or starting a settlement with NPCs, or whatever.  I just don't have the desire to repeat the same early game stuff over and over in order to achieve a longer survival time.  Those higher goals are what would drive me to get out, not an in-game boredom mechanic.  This is similar to how I never liked the Sadistic AI Director thing.  High difficulty was never what drew me to PZ, but I totally get that most people love the game for the that reason, the "how you died" premise and the survival time challenge.  I know those are the fundamentals and the way the devs want it to be.

 

Me, I'm more interested in the depth, the number of things we can do and build and craft.  Maybe I should just play Minecraft?? Heheh, I figure someone might say that so I'll get it over with myself.  Anyway, that's why I'm not opposed to sandbox options that go against the fundamental principles.  I think when I'm looking back at my life in the game, I won't measure it by how many days I lived but rather how well I lived, heh that sounds like some deep philosophy on life, but I think you get the idea.

[Rathlord]

That's all good points zombo. Hopefully in the future both sides of the scale will be able to enjoy the game. Obviously we're hoping the game gets that fantastic amount of depth you described there, but also caters to the 'high score' kind of gamers. I tend to identify more with your style of play, actually, but I do think boredom is needed for those other types. And hopefully the game will be immersive and diverse enough that we won't have to see that boredom moodle pop up!

[Zombies are my friends]

What if gardens could help, too? I mean, they could add flower seeds that allow you to grow a flower garden, and staying near one helps with sanity.

[Rathlord]

Candidate for necro of the year here =D

But ya, that's not half bad of an idea.