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Mechanics Rework


colid_cnake

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This may already be in the pipeline, but I've been playing around with cars lately and the way their condition works bothers me a lot. Firstly, I don't think a damaged trunk should so heavily affect the capacity of it; no matter how many dents or dings in it there are unless it's literally crushed inward the space doesn't just shrink inside of it. Secondly, I should definitely be able to repair parts more than once rather than genuinely needing to replace them--the hood of a car should be able to withstand being whacked back into shape or patched with metal/duct tape more than once, especially if it's in the kind of shape where you need to repair it in the first place.

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6 hours ago, colid_cnake said:

This may already be in the pipeline, but I've been playing around with cars lately and the way their condition works bothers me a lot. Firstly, I don't think a damaged trunk should so heavily affect the capacity of it

 

Secondly, I should definitely be able to repair parts more than once rather than genuinely needing to replace them--the hood of a car should be able to withstand being whacked back into shape or patched with metal/duct tape more than once, especially if it's in the kind of shape where you need to repair it in the first place.

I agree with what you say but the hood should only not be damaged if your driving slow 

And also fuel tanks seem to be very weak when you run over zombie corpses/alive ones with a car which makes no sense since most fuel tanks were made from steel not plastic and also the wheels of the car just getting straight up destroyed instead of the rubber bit of the tire getting flat/damaged and making the car consume more fuel in the process  

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31 minutes ago, Pandorea said:

Damage to these parts has been increased to stop players "mowing" zeds down in their hordes quite so easily. Iirc.

Then they should figure out a better solution rather than straight up nerfing values that may or may not be balanced correctly like making it that the different terrain can cause damage to the car if its not designed for it

 

OR

 

 make the car consume more fuel as the zeds push the car to try get the player

 

OR

The engine gets more strained and has a chance to get damaged by a little bit

 

Something else rather than quick solutions to solve "exploits"

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The trunk size is definitely an annoyance and I use mods for that problem.

As for condition...

I would like them to increase the durability of the hood. Or perhaps more sensibly, I would really like for them to raise the durability of the vehicle in the case of low velocity impacts. You really can do a lot of damage to a vehicle when running down a body at speed, but the vehicle does feel pretty flimsy in a close encounter. I don't want them to get any deeper on vehicle repairs since when you get to the truth of if, real life vehicles need anti-freeze, engine oil, transmission oil, brake fluid and windshield washer fluid (actually that one would be funny, since this stuff is really bad to drink, but maybe in a pinch...). Then after consumable stuff, vehicles need lots of varied and specific parts that are sometimes transferable between different model vehicles, but not often.

... Being able to soup up a small car would be nifty though.

There is definitely a balance issue at stake here. One of the cheesier Zombie clearing methods is to light some fires, park a pair of vehicles next to each other, drivers side to drivers side and just sleep on the horn. Because zombies can't crawl into the vehicle, the player can basically sit inside the vehicles as long as they have food. Meanwhile the Zombies will walk through the campfires you've set and light each other on fire until the massive horde your carhorn summoned is nothing more than a mound of charcoal.

I suspect any serious look at how vehicle durability works is also going to come with patching vehicles to burn. Until then, we've got modders.

Edited by BentNose
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The issue with "vehicle exploits" is that it feels cheeky to just run over hundreds of zombies to kill them while remaining completely safe. This, however, is actually super realistic. If dozens of people were trying to kill me, zombified or not, I would definitely hope I was in a car or something that could function as both a weapon and shield. The problem is it's not very gameified or fun in the confines of PZ. So the devs basically need to make cars have worse condition loss so they are less practical to use in combat.

 

But, IRL there is something that can't happen in Knox Country that could totally balance this system and allow the devs to buff car parts again. The reason you never see people running down zeds with cars in the Walking Dead is because they would very quickly climb onto your vehicle or get smashed through the windshield and could quickly bite you. Currently, in PZ, the only way a zombie can get you in a car is if your driver side window is broken. I propose that zombies can sit in vehicles. If a car door/window in open, broken, or removed, infected individuals could actually take an open seat. While sitting in a seat, they would be able to bite anyone sitting also in the vehicle. This ability to enter the car would also be possible through broken windshields and certain types of trunks. This would serve a lot of purposes:

 

First of all, zombies could actually spawn in vehicles. This would make scaving cars and trying to find a vehicle a lot more dangerous and exciting. Imagine opening up a door and 2 zombies fall out of the backseat. Secondly, it would mean you couldn't just leave your vehicles lying around with all the windows down and know it's safe from damage. Zombies would try to break into vehicles they were attracted to, same as doors and windows. Leave your headlights or car radio on and in the morning, you might have a full ride! The final plus of this system would be that the unpassable wall exploit using vehicles would be completely obsolete. No need to even write any major new code for zombies crawling under cars or climbing over them, just allow zombies to use the same system of entering and exiting vehicles but through open/broken windows/doors instead of full access like survivors have. Obviously, it wouldn't be perfect since they would have to one by one get in and out of the vehicle, but it's better than current build! (honestly this is one of the most atrociously OP exploits out there) Could actually be a new strategy to make the car wall more realistic instead of removing it entirely. You could use it as a chokepoint for zeds in which they would all stream out at a steady rate, allowing you to pick them off one at a time.

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On 1/7/2021 at 3:26 PM, TrailerParkThor said:

The issue with "vehicle exploits" is that it feels cheeky to just run over hundreds of zombies to kill them while remaining completely safe. This, however, is actually super realistic. If dozens of people were trying to kill me, zombified or not, I would definitely hope I was in a car or something that could function as both a weapon and shield. The problem is it's not very gameified or fun in the confines of PZ. So the devs basically need to make cars have worse condition loss so they are less practical to use in combat.

 

But, IRL there is something that can't happen in Knox Country that could totally balance this system and allow the devs to buff car parts again. The reason you never see people running down zeds with cars in the Walking Dead is because they would very quickly climb onto your vehicle or get smashed through the windshield and could quickly bite you. Currently, in PZ, the only way a zombie can get you in a car is if your driver side window is broken. I propose that zombies can sit in vehicles. If a car door/window in open, broken, or removed, infected individuals could actually take an open seat. While sitting in a seat, they would be able to bite anyone sitting also in the vehicle. This ability to enter the car would also be possible through broken windshields and certain types of trunks. This would serve a lot of purposes:

 

First of all, zombies could actually spawn in vehicles. This would make scaving cars and trying to find a vehicle a lot more dangerous and exciting. Imagine opening up a door and 2 zombies fall out of the backseat. Secondly, it would mean you couldn't just leave your vehicles lying around with all the windows down and know it's safe from damage. Zombies would try to break into vehicles they were attracted to, same as doors and windows. Leave your headlights or car radio on and in the morning, you might have a full ride! The final plus of this system would be that the unpassable wall exploit using vehicles would be completely obsolete. No need to even write any major new code for zombies crawling under cars or climbing over them, just allow zombies to use the same system of entering and exiting vehicles but through open/broken windows/doors instead of full access like survivors have. Obviously, it wouldn't be perfect since they would have to one by one get in and out of the vehicle, but it's better than current build! (honestly this is one of the most atrociously OP exploits out there) Could actually be a new strategy to make the car wall more realistic instead of removing it entirely. You could use it as a chokepoint for zeds in which they would all stream out at a steady rate, allowing you to pick them off one at a time.

That's sounds like a great idea. This could be the "a new (cool) zed ability" that the devs are adding soon. Having a realistic balance would definitely justify the car's use for offensive/defensive purposes that isn't as quite powerful as it is currently 

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There are a couple of points that I think are not mutually exclusive:

 

- Cars should be able to plow through hordes.

- Cars should be durable.

- The player should not have a cheap and easy way to kill hordes.

 

You could always make cars durable again, but rather than killing every zombie of a horde you cut through, the majority of them would just be thrown to the ground or thrown aside and getting up again afterwards with minor damage. After all, zombies don't care about bruises, broken bones or even having a car drive over a limb.

 

I agree with the thing re: trunk space, but not having used cars too much I can't make a definite recommendation.

 

I think generally, car parts should all be fixable and re-fixable. If there's a limit to how often, it should be high. It's difficult enough to find working cars or good parts, and it's also difficult enough to level mechanics skill - basically I had to take apart a bunch of cars entirely just to increase it a few levels. And that's with skillbooks. I'm not saying mechanics skill should be easier to level. It's fine as is.

Edited by Zork
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I’ll never understand how a driving, car-owning population came to the conclusion they could just plow through tons of flesh.

 

They’re still way too durable. Some of you guys are fighting against the kids-glove approach to balance here, given that they don’t even get damaged unless you hit multiple zeds in a short period of time.

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3 hours ago, Zork said:

You could always make cars durable again, but rather than killing every zombie of a horde you cut through, the majority of them would just be thrown to the ground or thrown aside and getting up again afterwards with minor damage. After all, zombies don't care about bruises, broken bones or even having a car drive over a limb.

 

I agree that vehicles deal too much damage. I think driving should create a lot more crawlers if anything, and should rarely kill zeds. I think there is a disconnect in player's brains because the car takes way too much damage compared to what we see on screen. Small, wimpy vehicles can run through a horde of 20 from a complete stop. Your average car can continue through a dozen zombies on the highway going 60. The damage the vehicle takes is super realistic, but we don't see it in a way that makes sense to us. I think if they gave infected way more stopping power, it would make more sense when we get home with a wrecked car. If the whole car came to an abrupt stop, you heard a louder shatter sound and maybe even a crunching sound, you would understand that you shouldn't be hitting zombies too often. IRL, hitting a person (or more commonly a deer) can completely total your car at 60+ mph. I get that it's gameified, but tweaking this could help convey to players that it isn't pragmatic to just run through zombies in a vehicle when you can avoid it. In a game all about risk vs reward, there's very little risk in using cars.

 

3 hours ago, Zork said:

I think generally, car parts should all be fixable and re-fixable. If there's a limit to how often, it should be high. It's difficult enough to find working cars or good parts, and it's also difficult enough to level mechanics skill - basically I had to take apart a bunch of cars entirely just to increase it a few levels. And that's with skillbooks. I'm not saying mechanics skill should be easier to level. It's fine as is.

 

This would also help make players OK with the way car parts degrade. Would give a reason to reach high level mechanic skill, and allow you to keep one car the whole game if you want. Would also pair well with the confirmed Vehicle Modifications, you would want to be able to just repair most if not all the parts on your Zombie Murder Van rather than replace them with scavenged materials.

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On 1/9/2021 at 4:22 PM, EnigmaGrey said:

They’re still way too durable. Some of you guys are fighting against the kids-glove approach to balance here, given that they don’t even get damaged unless you hit multiple zeds in a short period of time.

Well cars are made from steel not tinfoil.

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6 hours ago, Zebra03 said:

Well cars are made from steel not tinfoil.

22 - 18 gague steel for the skin really isn't very strong. Only the critical parts  of a car use thicker metal, usually in complex shapes to reduce weight. Anything unibody is meant to crumple. on impact, both to protect the occupant and the pedestrian hit. Naturally, this makes them pretty shit for anything other than gently nudging things out of your way unless you plan on momentum to carry you through. The goal is to deflect force from the occupant and/or absorb specific impacts, not preserve the vehicle. Most cars, by the mid 80s were designed this way.

economy-car-crumple-zones.jpg

 

Certain vehicles like commercial trucks, certain pickups, and cargo vans are generally built stronger, with a rigid frame. Even they have weak points because it's unexpected something is going to come at them from below, over and over again, fleshy or not. Obv this does not include vehicles from the early 70s and below, which were generally rigid death traps. Probably wouldn't find too many by 1993.

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Definitely important to keep balance in regards to zombies in mind, and cars definitely should not be a magic bullet for dealing with hordes. I personally try to avoid zombies entirely and only roll over bodies at a crawl if they're in my way, but cars often spawn with nearly wrecked parts and even careful driving doesn't make certain bumps and scrapes any better. All I was really suggesting when I posted this was that the ways repairs & specific part durability (e.g. trunk space) work should be looked at a little differently, as they seem sort of obtuse and don't make all that much sense.

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4 minutes ago, Zork said:

You will note however that PZ features almost exclusively "classic cars" from the 90s or earlier. These are heavier built, and I bet going by the models used that many of these are supposed to have steel frames rather than aluminium.


... they weren’t. You’re 8-15 years too late.

 

Aluminum is only a recent thing for structural elements of cars.

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  • 6 months later...

What if cars have a chance to get stuck on dead or crawling zeds? Or perhaps a full stop and obstruction for going forward, forcing the player to reverse, then try again, or navigate the obstacle. All the while having to deal with a chance of getting stuck backing up.

 

I was once told driving cars through certain styles of fences would have the shit get in the way and 'tangle' up the car.

 

On that note, could cars be made to break through fences like the zombies do now?

 

Ps. I also really like the idea of zeds crawling though/or into cars with busted windows. 

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11 hours ago, Papa Juliet Whiskey said:

On that note, could cars be made to break through fences like the zombies do now?

Pretty sure they already do with most fences like they do with mailboxes but I could be wrong. Could be a fun mechanic to sacrifice a car to get through a fence or wall

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On 7/23/2021 at 6:28 AM, TrailerParkThor said:

Pretty sure they already do with most fences like they do with mailboxes but I could be wrong. Could be a fun mechanic to sacrifice a car to get through a fence or wall

With a risk of getting jammed up in the busted fence.

 

I feel like TiS could unnerf vehicles if they made them handle more like real vehicles.

 

Taking more damage striking sturdy things like big trees, brick walls, and to some extent other vehicles(perfect opportunity to add seatbelts that may prevent the character flying through the windshield in 90 degree head on collision), but less when striking standing zombies. Or have a risk of getting stuck, slowed or stalled or driving over things.

 

An off road 4x4 vehicle could navigate off road, but maybe less so for the station wagons. Slow or stop em.

 

Program curbs as geometry into the game and have those wreck tires and alignment if driven over, to varying degrees based on speed and the angle of approach.

 

Hiting standing zombies head on should only kill them at really high speeds, perhaps forcing them to first become crawlers before the car is able to deal sufficient damage to kill them. Match that up with the possibility of getting stuck on their bodies/corpses, the mobile murder wheels no longer seem a viable option.

 

Regardless, vehicles should take some kind of damage when hitting zeds, just not as significant as it is presently. Damaged hoods may pop open,  obstructing the player's view forward, but can be 'looked around' by rolling the window down like you need to to look around/use a gun from the car.

 

Just a handful of thoughts.

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On 7/27/2021 at 6:53 PM, Papa Juliet Whiskey said:

Taking more damage striking sturdy things like big trees, brick walls, and to some extent other vehicles(perfect opportunity to add seatbelts that may prevent the character flying through the windshield in 90 degree head on collision), but less when striking standing zombies. Or have a risk of getting stuck, slowed or stalled or driving over things.

 

This would be awesome. It's incredible that you can slam into a wall or tree at full speed and it's literally impossible to kill yourself at full health. IRL, hitting a brick wall at 80 mph is going to smash the entire front half of the car, and you with it. Even hitting a tree at 50 mph could easily break your arm or leg. It's also super unrealistic that you can just drive off after that. Vehicles should be a commodity and a privilege in the apocalypse. You should have to treat a car like your baby.

 

Ejection from said vehicle could be difficult to implement, however maybe a seatbelt could mitigate the damage taken in most accidents? The tradeoff would be needing to unbuckle your seatbelt off before being able to switch seats or exit the vehicle. Maybe being 2-3 seconds for a 100% seatbelt. The lower the quality, however, it would take longer and longer. Imagine a zombie is breaking your window and you are struggling to unbuckle your shitty seatbelt. That is PRIME Zomboid lol! So you would have to consider the risk vs reward of keeping a seatbelt on, or leaving it undone.

 

On 7/27/2021 at 6:53 PM, Papa Juliet Whiskey said:

An off road 4x4 vehicle could navigate off road, but maybe less so for the station wagons. Slow or stop em.

 

Program curbs as geometry into the game and have those wreck tires and alignment if driven over, to varying degrees based on speed and the angle of approach.

 

I thought offroad traction was already a factor in the game, but if not I agree it should be added. I imagine curbs would be pretty difficult, but it could also be as easy as programming the edges to tear up tires/alignment. If the latter is the case, this would be a very fun addition. Would be another factor in making trucks/heavy-duty vehicles more OP. The rest of your suggestions have been discussed in this thread before, but they are all good nonetheless!

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23 hours ago, TrailerParkThor said:

 

I thought offroad traction was already a factor in the game, but if not I agree it should be added. I imagine curbs would be pretty difficult, but it could also be as easy as programming the edges to tear up tires/alignment. If the latter is the case, this would be a very fun addition. Would be another factor in making trucks/heavy-duty vehicles more OP. The rest of your suggestions have been discussed in this thread before, but they are all good nonetheless!

I think it is, to some degree. You can see the vic bobbing around a bit, and it does slow it up. Especially with Sunday driver, towing a car with a parking break on(can't remember if the e-break is vanilla or part of the better towing mod).

 

I was thinking maybe a vehicle type that is just better suited to it, may have less negative impact, and maybe have a variety of tires that are more conducive to off road funnery. Maybe even make them a little more forgiving riding corpse that a blocky old sedan.

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@Papa Juliet WhiskeyGotcha! So like taking the Dash Rancher, Franklin All Terrain, and Chevalier D6 and making them drive normal speed off-road. Maybe even having special Offroad Tires that could randomly spawn, or you could find and install to allow the vehicle to do so. Maybe a Quad or Dune Buggy would be a fun offroading vehicle, not sure how popular those were in rural Kentucky during the 90s. Here's hoping that we'll eventually get rideable vehicles like Motorcycles, Bikes, and the like whenever they get around to adding functional sitting animations.

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@Thor of the Park

 

Can't say for certain, but I've flipped more pickup trucks than anything else in game, and this makes me feel like they may be higher off the ground, and a little more top heavy. Any decent offroad ride would have more ground clearance, and they've already factored that in.

 

Maybe I'm just more reckless in a truck. Or maybe cars are closer to the ground.

 

I kinda wanna do some reckless driving when I get back on, test this a little.

 

But the 90s? I can't speak for dune buggies, but quad's were probably common. Not to mention the notoriously easy to flip trikes were still many years before they were finally outlawed/phased out. They're illegal here in Canada nowadays, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Vroom vroom!

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@Thor of the Park

 

Can't say for certain, but I've flipped more pickup trucks than anything else in game, and this makes me feel like they may be higher off the ground, and a little more top heavy. Any decent offroad ride would have more ground clearance, and they've already factored that in.

 

Maybe I'm just more reckless in a truck. Or maybe cars are closer to the ground.

 

I kinda wanna do some reckless driving when I get back on, test this a little.

 

But the 90s? I can't speak for dune buggies, but quad's were probably common. Not to mention the notoriously easy to flip trikes were still many years before they were finally outlawed/phased out. They're illegal here in Canada nowadays, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Vroom vroom!

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