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The game does not need NPC's to leave early access


Auklin

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Once the hunting update comes out, if the team just goes into bug fixing mode and adds in some obvious outstanding features (i.e. building stability), the game could fully release with a $30-35 price tag and I don't think anyone would disagree. NPC's can be released in a 1.XX release.

NPC's and AI are a huge undertaking. At the rate this development moves, I wouldn't expect 'factions' and good commandable NPC's before 2025. And tbh the game doesn't need them to be enjoyable. I'd be more than happy to see some work towards NPC's in a 1.1/1.2 release but honestly I think the team should just release it post hunting/bug update, have a celebration beer and return to work.

If the game fully released right now (pre build 41), I'd be annoyed that the rolling pin uses a bat's model. Probably the only true horrible bug is the vehicle randomly stopping in multiplayer. But all things considered, this game was already worth the purchase.

I tell my friends that this is the only Early Access game that I consider to be worth buying. 1) because of the dedication (not expediency :P) of the developers and 2) because the game in it's current pre build 41 state is already worth at least $25. 

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I mean, I know the devs aren't going to take the game out of EA until they feel the game is complete, and the devs have said many many times that they wanted to add NPCs.

 

It's not a matter of "getting the game out of EA" its a matter of when the devs feel the game is finished or not.

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Just an opinion. If you are successful, the end result doesn't change for us :P

The big worry here, in order:

  1. The game remains in early access for the next 5-10 years
  2. Experienced developers leave the project (which is expected in that amount of time)
  3. Funds may begin to dry up, game fully embraces 'early access hell'
  4. Project Zomboid becomes Project Cancelled.
  5. We are left with an unfinished early access game with early access bugs.

on the other hand:

  1. Game releases with all the expected features of a 'lone survivor' zombie survival simulator (with multiplayer!)
  2. little to no bugs
  3. Studio and game get's a huge boost in popularity and sales when leaving early access.
  4. Major NPC updates keep bringing people back to keep playing
  5. Potentially more profits to hire more team members for development / other projects

Would the game be better launching with NPC's? If done extremely well probably, but the development time is going to be extremely costly too.

 

This is a perspective thing. I've been following this game for around 7 years now, I've seen the community talk about NPC's, I've seen the devs release videos of NPC code running, etc. Some have the expectation that this is necessary for the 'vision' of the game. My opinion is that this is a minority, most of us are just looking for the best zombie survival simulator to play with friends, NPC's are actually quite low on the wishlist.

As a customer who has brought aboard about 6 others, I can tell you our (my friends and I, not the Zomboid community as a whole) think that the game can easily be considered 'complete' to the masses once the hunting update goes live. NPC's would be a cherry on top if done well, and only to some, because I'm willing to bet it will effect the 'feel' and current gameplay loop so much that some people would opt to turn it off.

Again, just an opinion, shut me up with a pillow if you think it's bad ;). Regardless, I hope for the best for future of the team and the game. And will be supportive of whatever roadmap is chosen.

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1 hour ago, Auklin said:

think that the game can easily be considered 'complete' to the masses once the hunting update goes live.

I think a lot of people agree with that, and so do I in regards to the quality of the game and its content, but again this is the way for the game to go to be completed. It's something quite fundamental to the game surviving. The biggest question in the community which always plagued PZ was "does it have NPCs yet?"

 

1 hour ago, Auklin said:
  • The game remains in early access for the next 5-10 years
  • Experienced developers leave the project (which is expected in that amount of time)
  • Funds may begin to dry up, game fully embraces 'early access hell'
  • Project Zomboid becomes Project Cancelled.
  • We are left with an unfinished early access game with early access bugs.

 

With the animation update and the overhaul that's done - there should be less digging into the engine that'd make any of the updates as long as this fundamental one. We're not talking six months of course, but also very unlikely five years at the stage the animation build is currently at.

 

1 hour ago, Auklin said:

My opinion is that this is a minority, most of us are just looking for the best zombie survival simulator to play with friends, NPC's are actually quite low on the wishlist.

I'd heavily disagree with that, I mean PZ has fulfilled my dream game very easily at its current stage. But being around as long as you I've seen the other side lots more and argued the point many times, PZ's endgame is severely lacking and NPCs are the way to go to fix that. As nasKo's said - they'd 100% be ripped to shreds, they've already been just because it's taken this long regardless of the price to quality and quantity of the game in its current stage too.

 

1 hour ago, Auklin said:

Again, just an opinion, shut me up with a pillow if you think it's bad ;)

Hopefully you didn't take that seriously, sometimes it gets a bit tiring typing out the same paragraphs for the last seven years around the place. I've seen the lot. :D

 

 

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be honest, the devs would be absolutely destroyed on every forum available. reddit, twitter, the official forums, so on. ''Hey guys, we're going 1.0 without NPCs'' is quite literally the worst thing they could ever say.

 

also, a bit more of a personal opinion, there's quite literally no end-game, and it's not like mid-game is hyper-fun to a point it justifies there being no end-game. this game really isn't close to being finished.

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I would rip them to shreds  🙋‍♂️ haha (just quoting Nasko)

 

It certainly COULD release. As A game. But NPCs will make it an entirely DIFFERENT game. It's way too game-changing of a feature to just casually release after 1.0.

 

*retreats to creepy Zomboid shrine to continue praying for a quick and smooth MP release*

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4 hours ago, BoogieMan said:

Depends on the person and when you bought the game, too.

 

Many people bought the game when there were NPCs and a storymode with the hopes of seeing more of that aspect of the game.

To be fair, it's probably only about 1% or 2% of PZ owners who have ever played with NPCs/Storymode.

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I could care less about NPCs. And if adding them really changes the game so drastically, as some have posted, I'd be very disappointed. I've stated before that I really hope it will be an option to give us the choice to play with NPCs or not. I love the game just as it is and I've seen other games that are complete but continue to do updates. I think the game is pretty perfect now but, I do enjoy the continued added feature we get and of course, bugs do need to continue to be fixed as they are found. I don't really understand why it could not be considered out of early access now....except the adding of the NPCs which seems to be quite desirable for some players. This is all just my opinion of course, and since I'm not a game developer, perhaps there are things I'm not taking into consideration (other than NPCs) that requires the game to stay in EA now. As far as an end-game, I've always considered my death is the "end game". I do quite well making up my own scenarios that keeps the game going for me so I've not yet become bored at any point. I'm just going to say it one more time and let it go after that....don't care about the NPCs personally and I hope that I won't be forced to play with them. Thank you for allowing me to offer my opinion and, thanks for the best zombie/survival game out there, even in EA.

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On 12/9/2020 at 1:41 PM, Auklin said:

At the rate this development moves, I wouldn't expect 'factions' and good commandable NPC's before 2025

 

More like before 2030, at best. NPC's, as envisioned by the dev team, are going to be an enormous undertaking. I honestly cant really think of any game that pulls off the type of AI that Project Zomboid is aiming at. We're talking about NPC's that are fully capable of adapting to emergent storytelling, and to navigate and survive intelligently in a very hostile world.
The only game I can think of that gets close is Dwarf Fortress, and that still feels very clunky and "gamey".

I dont intend to beat anyone down here at all, I still commend the team for aiming high. I'm mostly writing this because I've noticed here in the forums, reddit and steam how so many players seem to keep thinking that somehow development will pick up pace after the "core" of the game is finished... I have my doubts. Especially because IndieStone has proven to be very perfectionist when it comes to presenting their final products (which is a great thing!).
 

 

On 12/10/2020 at 8:44 PM, Auklin said:
  • The game remains in early access for the next 5-10 years
  • Experienced developers leave the project (which is expected in that amount of time)
  • Funds may begin to dry up, game fully embraces 'early access hell'
  • Project Zomboid becomes Project Cancelled.
  • We are left with an unfinished early access game with early access bugs.

 

Fortunately I dont see any of those as likely. "Early Access hell" has been the natural predicament of PZ for a very long time, yet the devs have persevered and even prospered.
Either way, a "1.0" release these days is often just a symbolic affair, which has both its pros and cons. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 as the latest example of this: technically its a 1.0, in practice, it will require SEVERAL updates over time to be considered an actual final product.
For indie, low-budget, small team games, the "1.0 as just another milestone" can be a very good thing. Look at Minecraft, which was basically the grandfather of this kind of development scheme.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/20/2020 at 8:11 PM, Maravone said:

Either way, a "1.0" release these days is often just a symbolic affair, which has both its pros and cons. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 as the latest example of this: technically its a 1.0, in practice, it will require SEVERAL updates over time to be considered an actual final product.

 

except that's not even remotely the same thing. cd projekt red has both the funds and the time to fix up cyberpunk 77, and I doubt zomboid's devs has either. post calling project zomboid a scam are usually top posts in most gaming subreddits, and releasing without NPCs, well, they have a field day. they're not in the same boat.

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34 minutes ago, TurklerRS said:

 

except that's not even remotely the same thing. cd projekt red has both the funds and the time to fix up cyberpunk 77, and I doubt zomboid's devs has either. post calling project zomboid a scam are usually top posts in most gaming subreddits, and releasing without NPCs, well, they have a field day. they're not in the same boat.

A) We’re doing fine

B) One post from years ago isn’t indicative of “most gaming subreddits”

 

Either way, NPCs are going in before 1.0, but not because it’d hurt or rep or we’d get  called scammers, but because we already committed to it.

 

Every popular games company has a shit rep, doesn’t seem to affect their bottom line, does it? I doubt most people buying games can even name the developer behind them. The investigation and anger comes post-purchase and then it’s forgotten and on to the next. Over and over again ... Still, a crap reason to drop a feature integral to the game’s future.

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43 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

A) We’re doing fine

B) One post from years ago isn’t indicative of “most gaming subreddits”

 

Either way, NPCs are going in before 1.0, but not because it’d hurt or rep or we’d get  called scammers, but because we already committed to it.

 

Every popular games company has a shit rep, doesn’t seem to affect their bottom line, does it? I doubt most people buying games can even name the developer behind them. The investigation and anger comes post-purchase and then it’s forgotten and on to the next. Over and over again ... Still, a crap reason to drop a feature integral to the game’s future.

Oh, I'm sure it does. Just not enough to be significant and/or it can't really be tracked and quantified. Probably not much though.

 

A lot of developers have been remove from my pre order list in the last few years, and some have lost money as a result to me no longer having that level of trust for them and after seeing gameplay footage and read about them I decided not to purchase where previously they would have had my money already.

 

I believe the effect may be somewhat cumulative over time though. After getting burned so many times it is inevitable that some people will start being more careful.

 

After the last two years especially, I rarely pre order anything now and I am far less likely to give early access games a chance. In my experience most aren't as dedicated and trustworthy as the PZ devs. Most of them over promise and under deliver.

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1 hour ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Either way, NPCs are going in before 1.0, but not because it’d hurt or rep or we’d get  called scammers, but because we already committed to it.

 

I understand and respect the dev vision behind this. From a personal standpoint, I enjoy the lonelyness in the game very much. The subtle indicators of someone still alive out there, like screaming, shooting etc. are enough for me to work with. Not having witnessed NPCs back in the days I can't really say how the experience would be with them. 

 

 

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To be honest, the only "official" NPCs we had (back in build 1.5d, some 9 years ago...) were crazy loonies that would shoot you on sight and get killed during day one. Good for a laugh, but not really interesting. I think most of the recent comments about old npcs in this forum is just fueled by forgetfulness and hype.

Kate was just a sprite that wouldn't move, with a few scripted dialogues.

Please, have a look at Adric's playthrough:

Adric's playthrough v1.5d

The devs were right in removing them until they can do a serious rework of the system.

I believe in the devs, they earned my respect by keeping to their words for all these years, they just need their time.

While we wait, Superb Survivor mod survivors are actually more advanced and believable: nolan's mod is enough to have some fun with simple npcs.

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