Jump to content

Permadeath and Probabilities


Bossdrive

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, EnvyDemon said:

So... uhh... is dying due to misclicks that big of an issue or is this guy really overblowing the problem?

 

Not everyone is great with the keyboard.

 

9 hours ago, EnvyDemon said:

Honestly, if you want a solution and you feel it was unfair, just download necroforge and click the "reset health" option in the debug menu.

Sure, but then what is the point of enabling infection?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 63
  • Created
  • Last Reply
16 hours ago, Bossdrive said:

You're conflating the chances of survival given your actions with the in-game probability mechanics. I addressed this in my very first post.

I don't think I do though. I'm trying to say that I think there are different layers of game mechanics, of which you have varying amounts of control, in play before your character dies.

 

1. Decision making. You try to stack the odds in your favor by being careful etc.

2. Implementation. Pressing the right buttons at the right time, judging angles

3. Damage calculations. You can reduce the risk of bites and scratches but entirely based on probabilities and RNG.

4. Death.

 

My point is that it always has go through these "layers" in order before you die. You won't get to 2 before you decide to fight. If you're good at decision making you won't take bad fights (e.g. fighting multiple zombies at once). And if you're only fighting safe (i.e. one-on-one) then you won't proceed to 3 without making a mistake. But yes, damage calculations depend on probabilities and can lead to unavoidable death if you're unlucky. However as I said, there are two layers you have to go through before any randomness comes into play. You must have failed on something skill based before RNG even comes into play. If you don't make mistakes you won't die.

 

What I'm arguing against is that you make it sound like you have no control of your characters fate, that your life and death only depends entirely on probabilities.

 

16 hours ago, Bossdrive said:

Both keyboard fumbles and combat misjudgment have absolutely nothing to do with poor decision making or reckless play style.

They definitely do. The number of possibilities to make a fatal mistake is directly proportional to the number of fights you choose to take. If you manage to avoid fighting entirely by playing cleverly you never have to worry about fumbling in combat. In addition, if you pick bad fights the tiniest mistake will likely have much bigger consequences than if you make a small mistake while fighting safely.

 

16 hours ago, Bossdrive said:

Keep in mind that the sole purpose of my protective clothing idea is to lend some degree of leniency for keyboard fumbles and combat misjudgment. 

And I'm disagreeing with that idea because I think it would make the game boring. And as people have said, the game already has "some degree of leniency" for bad plays. It gives you a random chance to survive your mistakes. Your suggestion would provide full immunity to anyone playing decently. I didn't mean literally immortal, as in you could stand in the middle of a horde and just chill, I meant you will never die as long as you make an effort to survive. 

 

18 hours ago, Bossdrive said:

- IF you decide to back off. This is the balance between good decision vrs bad decision.

Why wouldn't you back off? It's the balance between common sense and doing something stupid for no reason. It's not an interesting decision because there's an obvious right answer. There is no greater reward associated with taking greater risks. Instead it would be something boring you would just have to do if you're playing to survive, which is what I think most people do.

 

18 hours ago, Bossdrive said:

- Changing clothe takes time and leave you open to attack. Furthermore, carrying a bundle of clothe weighs you down making you susceptible to high exhaustion. 

Just don't do it next to a zombie then, there is nothing preventing you from running a little bit further away before changing. Carrying more clothes wouldn't make you more encumbered, it would just mean that you could fit less loot in your backpack and you need to run back and forth more. And if weight would be an issue you just put the spares in your car, park the car somewhere safe and if you get damage you run back to your car and change safely. It's not in-game decisions, it's something you figure out how it works once and then you'll never die unless you do something really, really stupid. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Mr_Sunshine said:

Not trying to be negative towards Bossdrive or gang up on him or anything, but it honestly feels like he's died a few times in the game out of his own negligence and is now blaming it fully on the game mechanics. Bossdrive, if you can record on video a scenario of where probability is entirely causing your death in the game as proof, I'll believe you. 

 

You can pile on, I don't mind.

 

Anyway, I don't see why I need to provide video where probability is entirely the cause when probability IS the built-in mechanics. There is no case where probability is not the cause. 

 

Now if you're referring to keyboard fumbles, misclicks, and angle misjudgments, yes I made many of them!

 

3 hours ago, Mr_Sunshine said:

ust to quickly point out, you're against the 'death  of your character being rested fully on probabilities' in PZ (which I disagree that the game has in the first place) and yet you're for the instant character deaths in X-COM? Their deaths are also permanent and can be super bullshit, spontaneous and even quicker than PZ and genuinely are probability based, so I'm a little confused at this point.

 

Why can't you also accept death in PZ? It even says "This is how you died" when you load the save game

 

Again, I'm not opposed to RNG. I referenced X-COM as an example of a streamlined character development system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Bossdrive said:

Anyway, I don't see why I need to provide video where probability is entirely the cause when probability IS the built-in mechanics. There is no case where probability is not the cause. 

 

At this point this is just a matter of perspective. Yes, you're right probability IS the built-in mechanics and by definition, it is the cause of our character's demise. However where you disagree and as many others and myself have pointed out there are many layers in between 'see zombie -> death by zombie' that will entirely prevent that probability even being considered. What I don't understand is how you think probability is the ENTIRE cause of death, not just a contributing factor.

 

I will agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

 

My biggest recommendation to you:

If the developing of your character only to lose it by a zombie probability is that annoying to you, I would recommend you switch to sandbox, set it on the 'Apocalypse'/ whatever gamemode you prefer and change the Character's XP gain to like 3x, 5x or 10x. That way you'll still get the same character progression but it's faster and you'll feel less annoyance should you die. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sprkng said:

I don't think I do though. I'm trying to say that I think there are different layers of game mechanics, of which you have varying amounts of control, in play before your character dies.

Ugh, such a long post. While I appreciate your response, I don't see any point in addressing it in full. Because even if I were to adequately address all of your objections, you still would disagree. 

 

That's because we disagree at a fundamental level.

 

And I think it begins with this premise,

 

1 hour ago, sprkng said:

Both keyboard fumbles and combat misjudgment have absolutely nothing to do with poor decision making or reckless play style.

 

You made it clear that you disagree with this premise. Both keyboard fumbles and combat misjudgment are inextricably tied to poor decision making or reckless play style.

 

This means that every time anyone dies by zombie, it is the direct result of poor decision-making and recklessness. 

 

Would you agree with this?

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mr_Sunshine said:

What I don't understand is how you think probability is the ENTIRE cause of death, not just a contributing factor.

 

But I don't think probability is the entire cause of death. Consider my very first post,

 

"Being scratched, lacerated or bitten by zombies is primarily due to one (or a combination) of these two factors

 

1. Poor decision making/ carelessness

2. Key pad blunder (e.g. fumbling the run, push, or attack key)"

 

1 hour ago, Mr_Sunshine said:

My biggest recommendation to you:

If the developing of your character only to lose it by a zombie probability is that annoying to you, I would recommend you switch to sandbox, set it on the 'Apocalypse'/ whatever gamemode you prefer and change the Character's XP gain to like 3x, 5x or 10x. That way you'll still get the same character progression but it's faster and you'll feel less annoyance should you die. 

 

That's a good idea. However, it just seems like cheating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bossdrive said:

Ugh, such a long post. While I appreciate your response, I don't see any point in addressing it in full. Because even if I were to adequately address all of your objections, you still would disagree.

No problem, I just like talking about game design.

 

3 hours ago, Bossdrive said:

You made it clear that you disagree with this premise. Both keyboard fumbles and combat misjudgment are inextricably tied to poor decision making or reckless play style.

 

This means that every time anyone dies by zombie, it is the direct result of poor decision-making and recklessness. 

 

Would you agree with this?

Hmmm, I would rather say "every time anyone dies by zombie, it is the direct result of some kind of player mistake". I think decision making (including recklessness) is more of an indirect cause of death, and it's more about giving yourself the best odds for the actual combat. Poor decisions can get you instantly killed, but the most you can get out of good decisions is a fight where you always win as long as you press the right buttons. You can have flawless decision-making and still die because you make a mistake, which I think is the foundation of your complaint.

 

I think there are basically two things we disagree about:

 

1. How hard the game should punish you for making mechanical mistakes (pressing the right button, moving the mouse to right position, timing, etc.). We just have different opinions and there is no problem with that. I gave some arguments for why I think this is better for the game but you don't have to agree. Luckily there are a ton of game settings we can play around with so that everyone can play the game in a way they enjoy. My wife, who plays PZ a lot more than me, also makes occasional mistakes when fighting so she just uses slightly different settings when she's playing alone.

 

2. quick edit: I re-read your first post and it seems like you're on board with player deaths are caused by your own mistakes, but several times after that you said something similar to "you're always a dice roll away from death", which sounds like you think you're dying due to no fault of your own. I think it's more correct to say "you're always a mistake AND a dice roll away from death" because the dice won't come out until after you make that mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/26/2020 at 7:29 PM, Bossdrive said:

Yet, you disable zombification. Why?

 

Is it because you don't play smart? that is the inescapable conclusion of your logic here.

 

 

 

 

It's because I make mistakes no matter smart I play, man. I've played the game for 200 hours and still do dumb things. No shame in that. That, and disabling zombification =/= disabling death if that's what you're insinuating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Clearly a lot of varying opinions on the subject of how avoidable a fatal zombie wound should be once you're up close and personal with the dead.  I fall on the side of liking where it's at: it keeps it intense and punishes me mercilessly for the slightest error, albeit in planning OR execution. 

 

That being said, I'd like to ask a forward question, as we all seem to have gotten hung up on whether or not there IS a problem (which is reasonable).  My question is, if I'm being direct, Bossdrive,  supposing the problem lies in the probability mechanic in play when a zed plays its attack animation, what would your solution be? I'm sincerely interested,  not trying to call you out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mumbler said:

what would your solution be? I'm sincerely interested,  not trying to call you out.

I think you missed some parts of the discussion, I'm pretty sure he proposed to make it possible to reach 100% scratch and bite protection through clothing/gear. When you get hit your clothes absorb the damage and reduce protection, but for the first attack that lands you're completely immune to fatal damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe with some kind of shield? Really heavy and really hard to move around? I mean, even with the best armor you would still be at risk. What if you fell and then you can't get up, like a turtle? That would be not only unfortunately but embarrassing. 

 

Being serious, that layer explanation that you put some posts ago, I think it is like that. For the game to run possibilities first you need to make a mistake. I do understand that making mistakes is reeeeeally easy in this game but they're still mistakes. I can't remember one time that I died and it wasn't my fault in the end.

 

@Bossdriveyou said that messing around with the sandbox options to, for example, get faster XP feels like cheating. I think that's the problem, people feeling that using the sandbox mode is cheating. It is an option in the game, it is not cheating. And it is single player, the whole point of playing is just... have some fun? If you're getting frustrated find an option that makes the game a little harder in the ways that you feel confident and easy in the parts that you don't feel like it's fair. I do that when I want to mess around with the sandbox options. Like... I will give my character more trait points! But now zombies are super strong. I will remove the alarms! But now some of them can run... Etc. Maybe that way you can find a setting that doesn't feel like cheating.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Pau said:

 I think that's the problem, people feeling that using the sandbox mode is cheating. It is an option in the game, it is not cheating. And it is single player, the whole point of playing is just... have some fun?

 

 

Exactly, if you refuse to change the settings of a sandbox gamemode for a singleplayer game and you consider that cheating.. well, you only have yourself to blame. Why ask for a change in game mechanics -which most people consider the reason why the game is as enjoyable and popular as it is- when you're refusing yourself to change settings that will make the game more enjoyable for you.

 

You're not alone in this 'cheating' thought, Bossdrive. A lot of people have the same perception and I just don't get it.. the devs even had to change the names of the 'survivor' and 'apocalypse' gamemodes purely because people thought they were simpler gamemodes/cheating when it wasn't.. 

 

You're only cheating yourself at the end of the day by not making it more fun for yourself.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, sprkng said:

I think you missed some parts of the discussion, I'm pretty sure he proposed to make it possible to reach 100% scratch and bite protection through clothing/gear. When you get hit your clothes absorb the damage and reduce protection, but for the first attack that lands you're completely immune to fatal damage.

Once again, that’s how it already works. Op rejected it because you can’t start with a full set of gear and tailoring, as that’s “probabilistic.” When clothing tears, it absorbed a hit in your stead.

 

All I can say to the anti-sandbox purists is “get over yourselves; you’re wasting everyone’s time by ignoring it and insisting the base game changes instead.” Same thing with getting too attached to the char, or spending too much time designing said char, only to die by poor choices shortly after entering the game. It’s not going to change because the problem is seeing it as a problem in the first place.


We’re not doing a mechanic like The Long Dark apparently has, where you get free save rolls for certain hits just in case you make a mistake, outside of reasonably realistic mechanics fitting to the game, either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...