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Ziggylata

Feedback on 41.26 Combat

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With the removal of animation canceling to take advantage of combat (but still allowing me to cancel the very beginning of my swing to prevent a bad option), I really want to review the combat right now as im the type of player who never really enjoyed a full-stealth experience and only really enjoy it briefly to avoid immediate detection in an unfavorable position.

 

Anim Canceling Removal was done very well. Very proud of you guys for that, but its left a problem. With the way you can fence/window cheese by leading hordes over to fences then systematically oneshotting them one at a time, its left a sour taste in my mouth on how combat should be engaged as the base game combat is unreliable and itd be more worth my time and safety to never engage a zombie outside of using a fence or window. Not only that, but ive also noticed the nerfs to strafing in combat which has also made base-combat more difficult, reinforcing my previous statement of feeling like I should only be cheesing via windows and fences. This kind of stuff makes the combat feel incredibly unresponsive in comparison to the last build of the game. With animation-canceling, I was able to both keep moving and cancel the end of my attack animation instantly into a shove to engage in combat with more than one at a time, making me feel much more capable at any given time, anim-canceling was overpowered and had to be removed but as I said in my anim-cancel thread on the forums, I dont think it should be completely thrown away and combat SHOULD be expanded.

 

I really dont want combat to devolve into exploiting the one safe way to fight and id rather see there be less emphasis on cheese and more emphasis on learning how to fight. 

 

Right now, fighting 3 at a time has devolved into "spam shove until 2 of them fall over onto the ground" which I feel grossly undermines the enjoyment I have in the game. Swinging my weapon is a liability since even if I connect, im stuck in place for the 2 other zombies I didnt hit to just wrap around me and instantly ruin my playthrough. Not only this, but taking even a scratch on any part of my arms will instantly gimp my ability to fight even further, making all my swings a literal joke.

 

If you guys dont want people to fight, thats fine, but you should make it very clear in that regard that fighting is not to be really engaged and even then, the fence cheese should be removed in this scenario.

 

If you really care about my opinion, I really like the base for the melee combat and I would really like to have a deeper combat system thats hard but rewarding to learn, allowing me to approach the game more aggressively, but having the game push back just as hard. Id like to be able to keep my home safe without the use of a gun which then loops back to my home not being safe. More combat mechanics should be looked into in my opinion as having more playstyles expands on player enjoyment as players can fit into whatever role they feel most comfortable. I dont like to run if I feel I can get through something (im not going to try to melee fight a horde of 20 but I should be able to take out 5 with all the time I have in this game, build 41 especially) and I dont like to only stealth. I also dont want a "dumbed down" experience, playing on modes like Survivor as opposed to Apocalypse wont improve my experience as that feels like im going from "Hard" to "Easy" on a difficulty screen. I feel there shouldnt even be these choices aside from "Builder" which is a significantly different experience over the other two. 

 

TLDR incase I didnt explain it clearly; I want to see more combat mechanics to increase the skill ceiling and allow me to engage the game how id like to engage, even if a harder-to-learn system. On top of that, fence/window cheese should be removed.

 

 

And a few other notes:

The Axe Man trait does not do anything for your swing speed, which is fine, but it shouldnt exist either. I have tested it in the current build using the debug mode and it does not function on normal swings with either the wood axe or fire axe.

I think the Nimble skill is affected by the Pacifist trait, I notice a severely decreased gain of Nimble with Pacifist equipped but Nimble takes so long to level up that this could be placebo. Id like to at least get an answer on it since Nimble is very important for melee combat and itd be good to get that leveled up to increase my own survivability in melee combat.

Edited by Ziggylata

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I wouldn't like the fence/window meta to be removed entirely, because it would be a valid approach irl to make zombies trip on obstacles and finish them off.

 

One solution to limit the fence/window meta could be limiting zombie stun effect when they trip over. Just make them attack your feet and legs after a short moment just like crawlers do, so it would become more dangerous to use it effectively against groups.

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2 minutes ago, Geras said:

I wouldn't like the fence/window meta to be removed entirely, because it would be a valid approach irl to make zombies trip on obstacles and finish them off.

 

One solution to limit the fence/window meta could be limiting zombie stun effect when they trip over. Just make them attack your feet and legs after a short moment just like crawlers do, so it would become more dangerous to use it effectively against groups.

Watch a regular PZ streamer any time with experience and watch them lead more than a handful at a time up to a fence in circles over and over for free kills.

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I know what you mean, I use fences extensively with sprinters. But then you could just get in a car and kill entire groups this way, no need to use fences at all and leading a few zombies away.

 

Zeds could also try to grab and attack you over the fence/window, that would make you to keep your distance at least.

 

At the moment I can't think of anything else than a chance for zeds to destroy small fences when tripping over but that still leaves windows anyway.

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37 minutes ago, Geras said:

I know what you mean, I use fences extensively with sprinters. But then you could just get in a car and kill entire groups this way, no need to use fences at all and leading a few zombies away.

 

Zeds could also try to grab and attack you over the fence/window, that would make you to keep your distance at least.

 

At the moment I can't think of anything else than a chance for zeds to destroy small fences when tripping over but that still leaves windows anyway.

Currently, I dont have an answer, I just know the problem. Same with my "expand the combat". I want the combat expanded but I dont really have any idea how.

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I think exploiting the zombie's lack of intelligence is fine, and what would happen in this situation, and it is now one of the few tools players have to deal with larger (previously viewed as small) groups. In addition to the number of ways you could deal with larger groups having been reduced, overall player combat prowess has been drastically lowered and the offensive capabilities of the zombies has only increased. 

 

While I like the weighty inertia aware feel of the new movement system, I do not enjoy the combat any more. It's way too easy to get tagged by even a very small group, or even 1 or 2 zeds because an swing didn't connect for some odd reason, and the vast majority of the time I feel cheesed whereas before I generally felt it was my fault when I got into a bad situation. Now it feels more random where I didn't actually do anything obviously wrong and a zombie just landed an attack because the hit tracking made me whiff through the zombie. It feels like now they can immediately land attacks by simply getting next to you, where previously it felt like there was a bit more of a wind up to their attacks actually landing - like they actually had to grab ahold of you and take a bite. Now at times it feels like they skip right to the bite.

 

I don't like how the only real with to do with larger groups now is to lure them away, that's a good method and avoids danger, but doesn't always work well and you can sometimes end up with more than your started out with. It makes it more repetitive. Weapon durability nerfs don't seem justified to me considering how dangerous they are to use now compared to before. Guns aren't good ways to do with big groups either, not only because you WILL end up with many MANY times more zombies than you started out with, the only guns that feel good to use is the shotgun that you can load directly. Weapons with magazines are very tedious, mostly because it seems like there is 1 magazine for every 5-8 guns you find, and it may not even be for one you have, or have ammo for. Weapon mods are super rare and don't seem to spawn on weapons any more either. Hopefully magazines get a fix in the future. Just about every gun should at least have one in it. Every pistol I've ever bought has come with 2 or 3 magazines. I've went through a crapton of ammo for giggles playing as a veteran and the skill raises super slow too, so yeah, all in all not a very good way to actually kill zombies.

 

 

I think the recent updates have overall been great for the game, except for the combat. Hopefully they can find a nice middle ground.

Edited by BoogieMan
typo

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Seems like an easy way to nerf the fence-hopping meta would be to impose a significant exhaustion increase on vaulting -- enough to where 3-4 fence hops within 30 seconds starts bringing on moodles, maybe. This could be modified by fitness level as other things are.

 

While it would still allow for tactical usage of fences as obstacles, it would prevent infinite fence-hopping to cull a herd -- you'd have to hit and run else risk moving too slow/attacks being too inaccurate.

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10 hours ago, BoogieMan said:

I think exploiting the zombie's lack of intelligence is fine, and what would happen in this situation, and it is now one of the few tools players have to deal with larger (previously viewed as small) groups. In addition to the number of ways you could deal with larger groups having been reduced, overall player combat prowess has been drastically lowered and the offensive capabilities of the zombies has only increased. 

 

While I like the weighty inertia aware feel of the new movement system, I do not enjoy the combat any more. It's way too easy to get tagged by even a very small group, or even 1 or 2 zeds because an swing didn't connect for some odd reason, and the vast majority of the time I feel cheesed whereas before I generally felt it was my fault when I got into a bad situation. Now it feels more random where I didn't actually do anything obviously wrong and a zombie just landed an attack because the hit tracking made me whiff through the zombie. It feels like now they can immediately land attacks by simply getting next to you, where previously it felt like there was a bit of a wind up to their attacks actually landing - like they actually had to grab ahold of you and take a bite. Now at times it feels like they skip right to the bite the moment they are in contact with you.

 

I don't like how the only real with to do with larger groups now is to lure them away, that's a good method and avoids danger, but doesn't always work well and you can sometimes end up with more than your started out with. It makes it more repetitive. Weapon durability nerfs don't seem justified to me considering how dangerous they are to use now compared to before. Guns aren't good ways to do with big groups either, not only because you WILL end up with many MANY times more zombies than you started out with, the only guns that feel good to use is the shotgun that you can load directly. Weapons with magazines are very tedious, mostly because it seems like there is 1 magazine for every 5-8 guns you find, and it may not even be for one you have, or have ammo for. Weapon mods are super rare and don't seem to spawn on weapons any more either. Hopefully magazines get a fix in the future. Just about every gun should at least have one in it. Every pistol I've ever bought has come with 2 or 3 magazines. I've went through a crapton of ammo for giggles playing as a veteran and the skill raises super slow too, so yeah, all in all not a very good way to actually kill zombies.

 

 

I think the recent updates have overall been great for the game, except for the combat. Hopefully they can find a nice middle ground.

I dont think theres a way to justify how cheesy the fence stuff is, let alone how it looks or feels to do. I never feel satisfaction because I ran away to my safe spot to kill all the zombies risk-free. 

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4 hours ago, Ziggylata said:

I dont think theres a way to justify how cheesy the fence stuff is, let alone how it looks or feels to do. I never feel satisfaction because I ran away to my safe spot to kill all the zombies risk-free. 

There is another option, you don't have to use it. I don't use that strat, but that doesn't mean I want to see it gone, other people may like it more, and need it more. One of the few advantages we have over the zeds is their lack of intelligence, how exactly are you going to take it away in a way that feels appropriate? Making you get exhausted after a few hops may do it, but I think it would feel nonsensical. 

 

For example, I've heard that you can only draw water from a certain area of a river a few times before it won't let you and you have to go elsewhere to get more water. I haven't tested, but if true and not the result of a bug, it's nonsensical and a way to punish the player without making it feel justified.

Edited by BoogieMan

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9 hours ago, BoogieMan said:

There is another option, you don't have to use it. I don't use that strat, but that doesn't mean I want to see it gone, other people may like it more, and need it more. One of the few advantages we have over the zeds is their lack of intelligence, how exactly are you going to take it away in a way that feels appropriate? Making you get exhausted after a few hops may do it, but I think it would feel nonsensical. 

 

For example, I've heard that you can only draw water from a certain area of a river a few times before it won't let you and you have to go elsewhere to get more water. I haven't tested, but if true and not the result of a bug, it's nonsensical and a way to punish the player without making it feel justified.

In a game about trying to live as long as possible, simply "opting out of using a superior strategy" is not viable and for me, opting out of cheese and making the game artificially harder and more unfair, especially given the current position of the combat, is not really a fair justification.

 

Opting out of fence cheese means I cant fight more than 2 at a time and even then those two are unreliable. Thats just how it works.

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13 hours ago, Ziggylata said:

In a game about trying to live as long as possible, simply "opting out of using a superior strategy" is not viable and for me, opting out of cheese and making the game artificially harder and more unfair, especially given the current position of the combat, is not really a fair justification.

 

Opting out of fence cheese means I cant fight more than 2 at a time and even then those two are unreliable. Thats just how it works.

I dunno, I think I'd rather see our options increase rather than decrease, so you don't/can't rely on one or two things above all else. The more restrictive the mechanics get, the more likely people are to seek exploits and other "unsportsmanlike" methods to achieve goals.

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2 hours ago, BoogieMan said:

I dunno, I think I'd rather see our options increase rather than decrease, so you don't/can't rely on one or two things above all else. The more restrictive the mechanics get, the more likely people are to seek exploits and other "unsportsmanlike" methods to achieve goals.

I want options to expand, hence my request for combat to be expanded, but any option intentionally added will still be dwarfed by this one, provided you have a fence or a window anywhere within a square mile, it really is just that much more safe and efficient.

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6 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

We’re going to fix the fence/window thing. It’s been on our list for a long time.

Im very happy to hear it (really, thank you 💖) but this still doesnt address a lot of gripes with the combat. Anim canceling gave me more reward for more input and thats something I feel should not be lost even if anim canceling is removed, which it had to be removed). Stuff like swing -> cancel -> shove was really nice and I want to see more things to prevent a situation from getting out of control so I can actually fight a zombie without being afraid im gonna lock up and become bait for 5 others because im locked into a shove match until one falls over.

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the way apocalypse is designed, if you are facing 6 zombies at a time then you have to die. fight only when really necessary, that's the spirit, stealth to find an opening and generally feel the fear while you slowly manage to go day by day, feeling like you earned your time alive. 

the game is trying to split into a mode where you are the prey and you try to survive like an average person waking uo in the zombie apocalypse and a mode where you have fun bashing skulls. why does nobody give feedback to the point where we get two different balances and instead want to ruin the feel of apocalypse? 

multi hit is lame? suggest to remove it from survival and give feedback on how to make it challenging and fun, but please, let apocalypse be the mode where we are the prey and really need to think every move because brute forcing through a group of zombies is not an option unless you use environment amazingly well (breaking line of sight) or have a group of organized friends to divide the zombies and fight safely. 

we are here to live the fantasy of a zombie apocalypse, in those stories even the dopest characters are forced to run away from a group, and in pz you can already kill groups just by kiting, let alone other form of cheese. 

i'm not against you having fun with combat, i just want you to help the developer making the combat oriented mode engaging and fun without ruining apocalypse for us. this is the only game where zombies can be scary, where they actually infect you and you need to be careful, i don't want brute force to be the way to go, unless your survivor has gone on for months killing only when necessary and then and only then learns to deal with small groups by brute force (with the right perks) 

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55 minutes ago, Livio Persemprio said:

the way apocalypse is designed, if you are facing 6 zombies at a time then you have to die. fight only when really necessary, that's the spirit, stealth to find an opening and generally feel the fear while you slowly manage to go day by day, feeling like you earned your time alive. 

the game is trying to split into a mode where you are the prey and you try to survive like an average person waking uo in the zombie apocalypse and a mode where you have fun bashing skulls. why does nobody give feedback to the point where we get two different balances and instead want to ruin the feel of apocalypse? 

multi hit is lame? suggest to remove it from survival and give feedback on how to make it challenging and fun, but please, let apocalypse be the mode where we are the prey and really need to think every move because brute forcing through a group of zombies is not an option unless you use environment amazingly well (breaking line of sight) or have a group of organized friends to divide the zombies and fight safely. 

we are here to live the fantasy of a zombie apocalypse, in those stories even the dopest characters are forced to run away from a group, and in pz you can already kill groups just by kiting, let alone other form of cheese. 

i'm not against you having fun with combat, i just want you to help the developer making the combat oriented mode engaging and fun without ruining apocalypse for us. this is the only game where zombies can be scary, where they actually infect you and you need to be careful, i don't want brute force to be the way to go, unless your survivor has gone on for months killing only when necessary and then and only then learns to deal with small groups by brute force (with the right perks) 

Multi-hit is sandbox is a sandbox toggle, at least.

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On 1/16/2020 at 8:32 PM, Ziggylata said:

Im very happy to hear it (really, thank you 💖) but this still doesnt address a lot of gripes with the combat. Anim canceling gave me more reward for more input and thats something I feel should not be lost even if anim canceling is removed, which it had to be removed). Stuff like swing -> cancel -> shove was really nice and I want to see more things to prevent a situation from getting out of control so I can actually fight a zombie without being afraid im gonna lock up and become bait for 5 others because im locked into a shove match until one falls over.

The total lockup is a bug from the change. That’s why the fix is being redone.

 

Regardless, better combat can come from the skill system (more fitting for an rpg) verses animation cancelling.

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On 1/17/2020 at 10:50 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

The total lockup is a bug from the chance. That’s why the fix is being redone.

 

Regardless, better combat can come from the skill system (more fitting for an rpg) verses animation cancelling.

If thats the case and there wont be more interactive elements added, id hope characters that level up can become noticeably different. Right now the only difference between a low and high level survivor is the damage they do, a fireaxe in the hands of a day 1 survivor vs a fireaxe in the hands of a day 365 survivor, the only difference will be the damage per hit. I kind of want to see more than that, myself.

 

I still think more mechanics should be considered but if thats not the direction you guys want to go then by all means, I just want to have fun playing the game and right now im a bit bored. Ive supported the game a long time and im always looking to see more good mechanics get added.

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23 hours ago, Ziggylata said:

Right now the only difference between a low and high level survivor is the damage they do, a fireaxe in the hands of a day 1 survivor vs a fireaxe in the hands of a day 365 survivor, the only difference will be the damage per hit. I kind of want to see more than that, myself.

 

For the record, your chance of getting damaged by a zed is decreased if you are holding a weapon you have skill points in (starting at level 2 iirc, level 0 is a negative 'bonus', 1 is zero net effect, 2 is the first positive bonus). It's helpful, just something that isn't visible or talked about that I've seen.

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Add a 10%-20% chance for a zombie to have a graceful landing over a fence or window, allowing them to get up immediately and not stay on the ground as long. With one or two zombies, its not a big deal. With hordes of zombies, having 3-6 out of 30 get up immediately will make people think twice about using fences in that manner.

Edited by LastRequest

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17 hours ago, LastRequest said:

Add a 10%-20% chance for a zombie to have a graceful landing over a fence or window, allowing them to get up immediately and not stay on the ground as long. With one or two zombies, its not a big deal. With hordes of zombies, having 3-6 out of 30 get up immediately will make people think twice about using fences in that manner.

Yeah, pretty much. 

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