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Head Stomping Feedback


ZombieHunter

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Not a fan of the new head stopping mechanic.

Even being a pixel off means the player does no damage.

 

Realistically speaking how does a person "not know" how to aim for the head? 
This whole "head" positional mechanic is not fun game play mechanic. 

 

Optional Solutions;

 

1. 2 separate animations based on what area is being targeted.

 

If the player is able to "Target" the head - they do a head stomping animation like normal.

If the player is not near the head - does a windup ( football ) kick animation instead - which "knocks them down" if they try to get up. 

 

This way the player gets "visual" feedback based on the animation if they are hitting the head or not. As well as different gameplay mechanics based on the location being hit.

 

2. Distance from head determines damage

The closer you are to the head the more "head" damage you do. If you are ontop of the head or relative proximity to the head you do critical damage. 

Edited by ZombieHunter
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I mean, it's already so loose you can basically hit the sweet spot anywhere on the top third of the zombie.

Are you standing too far up on it, so that the heel of your foot falls about a head's length onto the ground?

 

Would you be able to get a video of it? It'd be great to see what's going on.

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I think it would be helpful for learning where to aim for a head stomp if there were feedback in the form of different acoustic cues for stomping the head and stomping elsewhere. Maybe a more soft, punching bag-y sound for stomps on the body and a crunchy, bones breaking kind of sound for the head?

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39 minutes ago, lichterloh said:

I think it would be helpful for learning where to aim for a head stomp if there were feedback in the form of different acoustic cues for stomping the head and stomping elsewhere. Maybe a more soft, punching bag-y sound for stomps on the body and a crunchy, bones breaking kind of sound for the head?

That should already be there, but I will double check.

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2 hours ago, Livio Persemprio said:

yeah, it's already too easy once you get used to it. 

the idea was pretty much headstomping needs to be precise but rewards you by being ridicolously more effective than b40's head stomp. then they buffed the area you can stomp in. any more than this and push and stomp will be so ridicolously op

 

Actually it wouldn't be OP it is a skill check.

It only would knock them during the animation of them getting up - would have no effect otherwise. Which requires timing in skill.

 

That is one thing missing with Zomboid - there are very few skill based mechanics that require timing, its all RNG based.

Knife use for example was Skill Based and still is - you have to time your attack as they lunge to get the kill. Otherwise it is just a meaningless stab.

 

23 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

I mean, it's already so loose you can basically hit the sweet spot anywhere on the top third of the zombie.

Are you standing too far up on it, so that the heel of your foot falls about a head's length onto the ground?

 

Would you be able to get a video of it? It'd be great to see what's going on.

 

For me my issue is when the zombie is an angle.

If the zombie lies perpendicular to the plane of axis 0 \ 90 it registers fine

If it lies in an angle and I am at the chest facing the head, it either hits chest or head.

 

I have to reposistion my self completely to the otherside only to where head hitbox is to make sure I hit the head only. 

 

Right now recording it isn't possible for me until my host gets a multiplayer version up.

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yes, because, ironically, skill based attacks like the knife were so easy that you could kill the whole neighborhood with a couple butter knives. 

the stomp on the ground is skill based, as you have to hit the head to get the bonus damage. if you hit the chest the zombie still dies but at b40 stomp damage rate. 

i hsd a couple issues getting hits on zombies placed sideways but it's just a matter of getting used to it, especially now that the area of effect has been buffed so much. 

 

stomping is very viable for eliminating one or two zombies (given the two zombies have different walking speed that is). 

if you're in a real hurry you should just bash the head on the ground with your weapon because more than anything you don't want another zombie up and attacking you so just kill it quickly with your melee weapon of choice. 

whenver you go for a head stomp should be because you can afford the extra time to kill it that way

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6 hours ago, Livio Persemprio said:

i hsd a couple issues getting hits on zombies placed sideways but it's just a matter of getting used to it, especially now that the area of effect has been buffed so much. 

 

stomping is very viable for eliminating one or two zombies (given the two zombies have different walking speed that is). 

if you're in a real hurry you should just bash the head on the ground with your weapon because more than anything you don't want another zombie up and attacking you so just kill it quickly with your melee weapon of choice. 

whenver you go for a head stomp should be because you can afford the extra time to kill it that way

 

That was the problem I was mentioning earlier, if its perpendicular to the axis its fine, its when in an angle not perpendicular things go whacky. 

 

Realistically speaking you would naturally go for the head, there wouldn't be any "miss" involved. There really is no reason for a player to ever miss in this scenario.  There isn't any sort of "fine control" in this game required similar to a First Person shooter. 

 

Which is why it would be better to create a different gameplay mechanic to compensate for the odd behavior of the player deciding to hit the chest instead of the head. 

 

Which means alternate mechanics such as damaging the chest and legs prevents the zombie from getting up and forces it to crawl.

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it's fine as it is imo, if you have time you just reposition and hit the head, if you're surrounded then you don't deserve the bonus damage from head stomping and just go for the chest (which still kills but slower). in that case you also have the option to smash it with your weapon for extra damage to balance it

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I think you're not realizing that you can't reposition while in the stomp animation, unlike previous versions of the game (I don't personally like this chance, but it does make stomping harder). You have to let go of space then line up when the zombie falls at an unexpected angle, as sometimes they fall out of line with the character's facing. The new cursor is very helpful for lining up.

 

Can't reproduce the missing at certain angles thing. 

 

Don't know why you think it's not skill-based when it's skill-based in the same sense as your description of the knife (timing*). It's based on your skill of working with an isometric perspective to correctly hit the thing you're aiming for on the ground. It is not RNG, in other words. If you're suggesting we literally tie it into the skill system like the knife, then all I can do is shrug and ask "What? Why would anyone want that? It's such a simple move as is. You lift your foot and you hammer it down. It doesn't deserve or require its own skill or dice rolls."

 

*Which isn't required for the knife. It's purely random whether you'll get a head stab or a chest stab. Timing doesn't  matter beyond avoiding a shove if the zombie is too close. Either the knife's crit chance will be tied to the a combat skill or already is, but there's no timing involved to increase head-stabby-stab chance. Stabbing them from the back will drastically increase your chance, however.

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21 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

I think you're not realizing that you can't reposition while in the stomp animation, unlike previous versions of the game (I don't personally like this chance, but it does make stomping harder). You have to let go of space then line up when the zombie falls at an unexpected angle, as sometimes they fall out of line with the character's facing. The new cursor is very helpful for lining up.

 

Can't reproduce the missing at certain angles thing. 

 

Don't know why you think it's not skill-based when it's skill-based in the same sense as your description of the knife (timing*). It's based on your skill of working with an isometric perspective to correctly hit the thing you're aiming for on the ground. It is not RNG, in other words. If you're suggesting we literally tie it into the skill system like the knife, then all I can do is shrug and ask "What? Why would anyone want that? It's such a simple move as is. You lift your foot and you hammer it down. It doesn't deserve or require its own skill or dice rolls."

 

*Which isn't required for the knife. It's purely random whether you'll get a head stab or a chest stab. Timing doesn't  matter beyond avoiding a shove if the zombie is too close. Either the knife's crit chance will be tied to the a combat skill or already is, but there's no timing involved to increase head-stabby-stab chance. Stabbing them from the back will drastically increase your chance, however.

 

When its skill based - you get feedback. 

Reposistioning your character isn't really skill. 

 

Take the new batman games for example, you time the hits perfectly your combo meter goes up - you miss time it and all of a sudden your animation cycling stops.

 

In this case the animation for stomping chest and head is same. But the issue is stomping the chest serves no purpose. 

Some games cheat by turning "kill events" into "quick time events" - Cold Fear ( Zombie game on a boat ) is an example of that.

 

Knife Aiming is essentially a quick time event also - because if you time it perfectly it rewards you. 

It was extremely satisfying to the player to get that "Reward" and "Feedback" from the game. 

It would be nice to even see it expanded where you can do sneak attacks from behind. 

 

In 1 v 1 situation  you have all the time in the world to realize if you made a mistake.

In a 3 v 1 situation you need that "visual feedback" to know if you are screwing up or not. 

 

That is where having 2 separate animations based on where you are helps a lot. Otherwise if you hit the chest thinking you hit the head  and wasting time trying to kill something you aren't doing any damage to.

 

You struggle unnecessarily in a situation where reality speaking there would be no struggle at all. 

 

Tldr -

Reposistioning feels clumsy as players have to guess if they hit the head or not if standing near the chest. 

Since the game doesn't have "Health bars" ( Doesn't need them - for sake of explanation ) or other methods to communicate clearly what the player is hitting - it is essentially guess work, unless player physically moves toward the head side. 

Edited by ZombieHunter
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1 hour ago, ZombieHunter said:

 

When its skill based - you get feedback. 

Reposistioning your character isn't really skill. 

 

Take the new batman games for example, you time the hits perfectly your combo meter goes up - you miss time it and all of a sudden your animation cycling stops.

 

In this case the animation for stomping chest and head is same. But the issue is stomping the chest serves no purpose. 

Some games cheat by turning "kill events" into "quick time events" - Cold Fear ( Zombie game on a boat ) is an example of that.

 

Knife Aiming is essentially a quick time event also - because if you time it perfectly it rewards you. 

It was extremely satisfying to the player to get that "Reward" and "Feedback" from the game. 

It would be nice to even see it expanded where you can do sneak attacks from behind. 

 

In 1 v 1 situation  you have all the time in the world to realize if you made a mistake.

In a 3 v 1 situation you need that "visual feedback" to know if you are screwing up or not. 

 

That is where having 2 separate animations based on where you are helps a lot. Otherwise if you hit the chest thinking you hit the head  and wasting time trying to kill something you aren't doing any damage to.

 

You struggle unnecessarily in a situation where reality speaking there would be no struggle at all. 

 

Tldr -

Reposistioning feels clumsy as players have to guess if they hit the head or not if standing near the chest. 

Since the game doesn't have "Health bars" ( Doesn't need them - for sake of explanation ) or other methods to communicate clearly what the player is hitting - it is essentially guess work, unless player physically moves toward the head side. 

 

Uh, no. No, skill-based doesn't mean you have a GUI, finishing moves, or whatever else and never has. All skill-based means is a dice or calculation based on a "skill" occurs. That doesn't happen for stomping. 

 

Even then, you shouldn't need new GUI elements, bars, highlights, or whatever to connect what you're doing do the result. You stomp a zombie's legs, it's ineffective and has a much duller sound. You stomp its chest, it's marginally effective and more solid sounding. You hit its head, it explodes into a gory mess and goes "squish."  No bars necessary. Same with knife strikes - though it's random, and that randomness may or may not be determined by skill right now, you can observe the result clearly between using different weapons and hitting the zombie in different areas to see how it dies.

 

When (if it's not already), knifes are tied to the skill system, it is by its very nature skill based, even if it relies somewhat on player skill positioning and timing. Stomp isn't skill-based at all, right now (though it could easily be tied into strength, thus becoming skill-based). 

 

The lack of ability to preposition, I personally consider a bug although the reason it's done this way is because it was pretty darn OP to be able to just pivot on your toe while in fulll stomp. I don't agree with it, but there's a clear intent behind the decision, so.

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20 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Even then, you shouldn't need new GUI elements, bars, highlights, or whatever to connect what you're doing do the result. You stomp a zombie's legs, it's ineffective and has a much duller sound. You stomp its chest, it's marginally effective and more solid sounding. You hit its head, it explodes into a gory mess and goes "squish."  No bars necessary. Same with knife strikes - though it's random, and that randomness may or may not be determined by skill right now, you can observe the result clearly between using different weapons and hitting the zombie in different areas to see how it dies

 

When I talk about bars - I am simply using it as an example of "visual feedback information"

When you see a bar you know damage is being done and more importantly how much damage is being done.

 

I don't think Zomboid needs bars, I am simply giving an example of one style of feedback.

 

Also "intensity" of sound isn't really a great feedback indicator either, as intensity is most often used to denote distance and not damage. 

Usually when it comes to different damage types - different sounds are used entirely.

 

Finally you have the problem of sound pollution - when multiple sounds overlap. 

Which makes sound intensity again less meaningful. 

 

With animation variation there is no confusion it is a visual feedback indicator that immediately tells the player if they need to move or not or just keep hitting smash. 

 

Animation variation can be anything,;

  • When stomping on the chest causing the zombie to bend ( raising head and legs in response ) 
  • Different kick \ stomp styles
  • Kicking in Chest suddenly causing the zombie to turn and get up

 

Essentially a "Reaction" of some sort. 

 

P.S

On a side note can we please change the text from grey to something with more contrast?

It is quite difficult to see.

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Animating the zombie while being stomped isn't going to fix this. It's going to mean it takes longer to stomp a zombie because now you have to deal with clipping issues and waiting for the zombie to stop movement. Crawlers getting up through the player are bad enough to not want more of that. (I'm not saying it might not happen, only that it's not as simple or effective as you might think.)

 

Isn't it enough literally killing a zombie in one strike when you land on the head vs. 3-4 on the chest vs. never on the legs? 

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3 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Animating the zombie while being stomped isn't going to fix this. It's going to mean it takes longer to stomp a zombie because now you have to deal with clipping issues and waiting for the zombie to stop movement. Crawlers getting up through the player are bad enough to not want more of that. (I'm not saying it might not happen, only that it's not as simple or effective as you might think.)

 

Isn't it enough literally killing a zombie in one strike when you land on the head vs. 3-4 on the chest vs. never on the legs? 

 

That is the thing  I honestly don't mind if it "takes more time" to kill.

Even if I had to stomp on the head 3 - 4 times ( like in build 40 and before ) I never had a problem with that.

 

It added a little more danger. 

But with build 40 it honestly didn't matter where i stomped so no feedback was necessary at that point.

 

Now it actually matters where you stomp.  That is the key difference between the two. 

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I have to say I haven't had any problem stomping zombie heads. I did at first when it was harder to orient the character correctly, but they've solved those issues. Now you can just jog right up and stomp a head in no problem. 

 

I do find it a bit weird that you can kill a zombie with a single stomp to the head but struggle to kill a zombie with a single swing to the head with a heavy weapon like an axe or baseball bat. I'm hoping they increase weapon damage across the board one day for those weapons.

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On 10/27/2019 at 4:58 PM, ZombieHunter said:

 

That is the thing  I honestly don't mind if it "takes more time" to kill.

Even if I had to stomp on the head 3 - 4 times ( like in build 40 and before ) I never had a problem with that.

 

It added a little more danger. 

But with build 40 it honestly didn't matter where i stomped so no feedback was necessary at that point.

 

Now it actually matters where you stomp.  That is the key difference between the two. 

Well, that seems reasonable enough. I wouldn't mind more variety in zombie stomping myself. 

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10 hours ago, Neonwarrior said:

I do find it a bit weird that you can kill a zombie with a single stomp to the head but struggle to kill a zombie with a single swing to the head with a heavy weapon like an axe or baseball bat.

Ya I agree with that - one shotting a zombie on the gorund with a foot just makes things too eay. 

If I was using a 2 handed Sledge Hammer or a bat or essentially any 2 handed weapon it would be fine.

 

It would also give players a motive to use carry the extra weight of a 2 handed weapon - giving the weapon types more value.

 

 

 

Edited by ZombieHunter
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