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IWBUMS 41.15 RELEASED

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24 minutes ago, Lixo said:

 

That is the thing, to me you can not do that in a realistic setting. Humans are very good at grabbing and holding onto things. You wouldn't be able to stiff-arm your way through a few zombies blocking your way "in real life" without getting scratched/bitten. I think the new update has a very nice way of showing that THESE THINGS WANT TO EAT YOU and if you give them the chance, they will.

 

For the kicks and everything, it is interesting but same thing, if I kick someone in real life and am not trained to do so in the proper way, and if the person I am kicking doesn't give a shit about pain, they might just grab my leg, and again : game over.

I just really love the realism of it all !

 

The idea of the shoving efficiency being tied with the strength stat is a wonderful one !

 

Also I am sure as soon as the clothing modding tools are released we will have armours and duct tapped magazines in the game and you will then be able to shrug off the scratches zombies give you when you bump into them.

 

Okay, humans are good at grabbing and holding onto things, but zombies are not. They can't even figure out how to open doors, can't swing weapons at you, and I doubt they'd be able to just be able to grab your leg mid-kick and take you down like some pro UFC fighter, man. They can't even climb waist high fences without flopping over the edge and falling on their face. I think you overestimate the power of a zombie. I was more talking about just as a way to give yourself some space, similar to a shove, rather than trying to take down a zombie with a kick to the head... which is stupid. 

 

Also, yes, I think scratches should be totally 100% preventable by armour. I'm wearing jeans right now and I can't even manage to scratch my leg with a finger, no matter how hard I press.

Edited by Neonwarrior

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1 hour ago, Neonwarrior said:

Also, yes, I think scratches should be totally 100% preventable by armour. I'm wearing jeans right now and I can't even manage to scratch my leg with a finger, no matter how hard I press.


There is a big difference between say Kmart jeans vs Kevlar jeans. One is unbreakable, the other can easily shred at the knees from say fingernails getting caught in it and being pulled on.

I laughed at baggy jeans in the game, they are way OP. They should break and expose legs just from running ahah. Or you should have higher chance to fall when sprinting. It would also be cool to have different sized clothing for a use for that belt.

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4 hours ago, Neonwarrior said:

I know it's possible to survive, because you can always get lucky and find a place that isn't infested. But are you using the PZ map website to find the perfect base spot to book it to every time? If yes, then I don't consider that true gameplay, because you had a meta strategy in mind. I try to play organically, and I only use the PZ map to locate myself in the very beginning of the game (if I do survival challenges which don't let you choose your spawn location). Yet it always requires luck to find a house, or a farm, that is not infested—in my ten hours of this update, every regular spot I go to simply has too many zombies to feasibly get rid of. 

 

I do not use the PZ map for the same reason as yours, i actually like getting lost in the map and that is why i love Kingsmoth and Riverside since i have never explored those maps before. As for getting lucky, to be honest i just found a barricaded house, took the hammer i had, took out the single barricade on a window and open it, let the zombies come out, lure them to the woods (there were around 6 of them inside), clear the area of stragglers with my hand axe and boom, i had a base on day 2 of nomading it up by exploring, reinforced the house with TVs around and tables, did a quick suicide run to the hardware store to get fishing stuff and a saw and my trusty axe and went to town with it clearing every single zombie i could find, by now i kinda found a rhythm to combat but i never take on more than 3 zombies, i just lure 3 zombies by 3 from large groups.

 

Also windows are excellent chokepoints to stomp them while they are down but you can easily be grabbed if 2 of them jump at you at the same time.

 

2 hours ago, Neonwarrior said:

I was fine with the way combat was before, simply because I understood it was a placeholder for a much better system including new animations. Now those animations are here, and it is not what I expected it would be at all. I thought new animations would empower the player to handle zombies in a different way, like kicking and pushing and stiff-arming your way past a few zombies without this insta-grab thing they do right now that requires you to shove them off or you die. Killing zombies is besides the point; I just want to be able to -move- like I feel I should, especially when playing a stronger character who has survived for a period of time. I feel artificially restricted in movement, and I know it could also be completely fixed simply by adding in many new animations for player characters.

 

I do not know what you mean by this, with the ability of strafe and move while attacking, you can easily take on the zombies with a long range weapon like a baseball bat, axe or shovel and unless a zombie grabs you from behind or you have a slow zombie and a fast zombie, its rare that the zombie you are fighting does a grab, the only times i have been grabbed before was on corners or when fighting while tiered, so zombies could come from behind and bite me.

What really matters right now is the skill you have with your weapon, level 3 axe can take on more than 3 zombies but i do not like to risk it unless i really need it.

 

2 hours ago, Neonwarrior said:

I think one of the worst offenders right now is that you cannot shove more than one zombie at a time on Apocalypse difficulty. At the *very* least, I expect zombies to obey the laws of physics and get shoved backwards when another zombie pushes into them, for example shoving one zombie into a small group and watching the ones that came into contact with the stumbling zombie themselves stumble backwards a bit.

 

If we go with the law of physics, a zombie that trips over you will completely knock you down and that would be a game over, now imagine 3 zombies lunging at you while you try to shove 1 of them, you would be fucked, i guess my playstyle is a little different but why you want to shove 2 zombies at once? The only situation where i wish that i could shove more than 2 zombies is when i was cornered by 4 zombies but even if i could shove 2 i was fucked by the other 2 at the sides and right now shoving and stomping is OP as hell.

 

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Ok, few things from me:

The new build is great, thanks a lot guys.

 

Now few things that im worried about:

 

1) dont change ballance so fast. What i see here and at steam is that a lot of guys complain about difficulty after few days of IWBUMS... Play a bit more, try to adapt. Dont whine at forum becaouse you died 4 times in a row. Look at some youtubers, they are dooing just fine at survivor (apocalypse) mode. Its not 100% ballance issues, its you not adapting to the new game.

 

2) I have mixed feeling about new game modes (brawler , survivor etc). Imo they will spread out, small, multiplayer community. I know that some players may have problems with new fighting mechanics. But instead of creating many "game modes" just utilize that skill system. Multi hit etc is cool, just merge that to fighting skill and/or strenght.

You want to kill zombies - build brawler character and dont sellect brawler mode. That will also add a lot of deepth to multiplayer system and NPCs.

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@Zorak

So far everyone loves the new build and I dont see too many people complain about difficulty.

The IWBUMS is a work in progress build where player are supposed to give feedback, right?

If you are fine how it is, thats your buisness, telling people to adapt etc because you dont see problems is really arrogant.

If players see or have issues its their right to write their opinion and the devs have to decide what they do with the given feedback.

I love hard games and Im satisfied with the direction Zomboid is going, but there are things which need fine tuning, thats not deniable.

Also I doubt you need to worry the game gets easy, If that is what let you panic, as I remember the devs already said this game will be really hard and unforgiving.

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@Lornsteyn Well ive seen quite a few topics about how hard the new combat is.

Some of them are hidden behind "I like hard games BUT ... "

 

Devs changes how combat work a lot (and its fine). I cant see how people can complain about it after a few days.

They play the same old way they did in b40 and expect it to work in b41.

 

You can find a lot of gameplays at twich or YT, where you see that 41.14 was playable and with the right tactic you can still kill 100's of zeds and survive more than a few days.

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I would suggest a compromise for Apocalypse combat, make it so if a character has 10 Strenght, he will be able to hit 2 zombies with most weapons and push 2 zombies.

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10 hours ago, Neonwarrior said:

 

I've played since the 1.5d tech demo in 2011, I probably have about 200 combined hours. Most of my games in previous updates ended with boredom, and yes, I've gone months and months and made huge bases with carpentry and metalcrafting in build 40-. 

 

I know it's possible to survive, because you can always get lucky and find a place that isn't infested. But are you using the PZ map website to find the perfect base spot to book it to every time? If yes, then I don't consider that true gameplay, because you had a meta strategy in mind. I try to play organically, and I only use the PZ map to locate myself in the very beginning of the game (if I do survival challenges which don't let you choose your spawn location). Yet it always requires luck to find a house, or a farm, that is not infested—in my ten hours of this update, every regular spot I go to simply has too many zombies to feasibly get rid of. 

 

I'm curious as to what lemmy would think of your 210 zombie kills around day 14, since he's led me to believe that he does not want you surviving that long on Apocalypse, having killed that many zombies, in just two weeks. He just said this a little while ago:

 

 

You're not even supposed to make it through winter. It feels like you're actually too successful, and my experience is the -intended- one, rather than yours. You must have gotten incredibly lucky finding guns and shelter so quickly. What are your thoughts on this?

 

It's not about me 'not wanting someone to survive on it' - it's purely about me wanting those people who got bored on build 40 to have a new difficulty ceiling to put the fear back in them again and cut down base survival times from weeks or months to days. Notice now he's boasting of doing well by surviving 14 days? that's still a win if that's worth being proud of. In three months time of playing, I rather suspect he'll be farming and building a big base and surviving months SOMETIMES. That's not a fail, it just means that people have learnt how to survive on Apocalypse, and fingers crossed will still have same fear when a horde of zombies turn up. We don't expect NO ONE to survive for a longer period, we expect the average person or average survival time to be short and for longer times to be worth boasting about and being earned instead of coming natural once you get set up.

 

As for Survival, we pushed a fix for the zombie counts last night, so they should be back at build 40 numbers. We also added a fix to reenable the push multihit on Survival. Now we've renamed Brawler to Survivor specifically because of your own feedback and misinterpretations of what we wanted to do with that mode, and since its modelled around b40, we're less concerned with talking difficulty, since Apocalypse is a NEW higher difficulty mode, its clear that Survivor still remains from build 40 and is balanced similarly, Apocalypse is something new, which we hope means we'll be freer to keep the extra difficulty in the zombies intact and what was 'Brawler' doesn't seem to be such an insulting prospect for people to play.

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@Zorak

The combat will probably change more in the future, there are still lots of things that can get improved and If they do Im sure the game will be still hard as hell.

But I dont know what exactly was changed in terms of combat the last few days, you can tell me and why this change bothers you?

 

Killing 2 or 3 zeds is not the problem, we arent even supposed to kill all zeds we see.

Im personally are more annoyed by too many zed groups where they dont belong and (like I mentioned in the other thread) their ability to see you through walls after they spotted you.

 

@lemmy101

Did this zombie count change affect a already running/loaded game or is a fresh start required?

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1 minute ago, Lornsteyn said:

@Zorak

The combat will probably change more in the future, there are still lots of things that can get improved and If they do Im sure the game will be still hard as hell.

But I dont know what exactly was changed in terms of combat the last few days, you can tell me and why this change bothers you?

 

Killing 2 or 3 zeds is not the problem, we arent even supposed to kill all zeds we see.

Im personally are more annoyed by too many zed groups where they dont belong and (like I mentioned in the other thread) their ability to see you through walls after they spotted you.

 

@lemmy101

Did this zombie count change affect a already running/loaded game or is a fresh start required?

 

Probably only new games am afraid

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Lol went into a gas station in west point, right when I entered the door there was about 4 zombies there right next to the door, I did not see them inside so the moment I went in, that instant death animation thing played and I died... Argh. It's insane. Problem is, I couldnt do anything, once they had grabbed me which they did instantly the moment I went through the door, it was game over. 

Maybe this is something can be balanced? Seems a little too unfair really.

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2 minutes ago, Josko said:

Lol went into a gas station in west point, right when I entered the door there was about 4 zombies there right next to the door, I did not see them inside so the moment I went in, that instant death animation thing played and I died... Argh. It's insane. Problem is, I couldnt do anything, once they had grabbed me which they did instantly the moment I went through the door, it was game over. 

Maybe this is something can be balanced? Seems a little too unfair really.

Didnt the gas station have windows?

Edited by Lornsteyn

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2 minutes ago, Lornsteyn said:

Didnt the gas station have windows?


Yes it did, but I just went through the door, didn't think there would be that many zombies inside and near the door too.

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1 hour ago, lemmy101 said:

 

It's not about me 'not wanting someone to survive on it' - it's purely about me wanting those people who got bored on build 40 to have a new difficulty ceiling to put the fear back in them again and cut down base survival times from weeks or months to days. Notice now he's boasting of doing well by surviving 14 days? that's still a win if that's worth being proud of. In three months time of playing, I rather suspect he'll be farming and building a big base and surviving months SOMETIMES. That's not a fail, it just means that people have learnt how to survive on Apocalypse, and fingers crossed will still have same fear when a horde of zombies turn up. We don't expect NO ONE to survive for a longer period, we expect the average person or average survival time to be short and for longer times to be worth boasting about and being earned instead of coming natural once you get set up.

 

As for Survival, we pushed a fix for the zombie counts last night, so they should be back at build 40 numbers. We also added a fix to reenable the push multihit on Survival. Now we've renamed Brawler to Survivor specifically because of your own feedback and misinterpretations of what we wanted to do with that mode, and since its modelled around b40, we're less concerned with talking difficulty, since Apocalypse is a NEW higher difficulty mode, its clear that Survivor still remains from build 40 and is balanced similarly, Apocalypse is something new, which we hope means we'll be freer to keep the extra difficulty in the zombies intact and what was 'Brawler' doesn't seem to be such an insulting prospect for people to play.

 

I just sunk another few hours into the update after the most recent change, on Apocalypse, and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised at how things feel now that you solved some of those movement quirks. I was really worried that that was intended, and was going to stay awkward and clunky. I feel a lot more comfortable with the game now, though I still get odd moments where my character seems to linger for a tad too long when switching directions quickly. Still a huge improvement from doing semi-truck u-turns. It's nowhere near my ideal, but I think you've struck a decent balance for now.

 

If I had any one major complaint now, other than my complaints against zombie grabs, it's the sheer number of zombies and the default 72-hour respawn which I feel is too quick now that zombies are such a huge threat. I have to take everything a lot slower, so seeing zombies appear where they weren't (knowing that they didn't actually flood in from outside cells) is a bit disheartening. That's a placeholder system until you implement true hording AI behaviour, right?

Edited by Neonwarrior

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5 minutes ago, Neonwarrior said:

 

I just sunk another few hours into the update after the most recent change, on Apocalypse, and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised at how things feel now that you solved some of those movement quirks. I was really worried that that was intended, and was going to stay awkward and clunky. I feel a lot more comfortable with the game now, though I still get odd moments where my character seems to linger for a tad too long when switching directions quickly. Still a huge improvement from doing semi-truck u-turns. It's nowhere near my ideal, but I think you've struck a decent balance for now.

 

If I had any one major complaint now, other than lack of freedom of movement when defending against zombie grabs, it's the sheer number of zombies and the default 72-hour respawn which I feel is too quick now that zombies are such a huge threat. I have to take everything a lot slower, so seeing zombies appear where they weren't (knowing that they didn't actually flood in from outside cells) is a bit disheartening. That's a placeholder system until you implement true hording AI behaviour, right?

 

zombies spawning is a bug right now, we literally have them suddenly appear in the middle of a room after you've walked into it. Glad to hear you're feeling better about the changes!

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Been through a few Apocalypses now. Loving it so far. noticed two issues when i die though

 

1 - the game mode listed is incorrect. it is still pulling the old game mode names (says Survival instead of apocalypse)

2 - the text when dying sometimes doubles up on screen

 

ive managed 15 hours and killed 25 zombies in one run so far :)

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33 minutes ago, lemmy101 said:

zombies spawning is a bug right now, we literally have them suddenly appear in the middle of a room after you've walked into it. Glad to hear you're feeling better about the changes!

 

And I'm afraid I have to inform this bug is affecting spawn rates in an alarming way, pun fully intended-

 

Fired my gun a few times a house, then quickly stealthed to another house (have Inconspicuous and maxed Stealth) and hid in a room whose door had a glass and I could see thru it, and saw Zed spawn not once, but TWICE and go after the alarm.

 

Meaning, every time you use a gun, you're pretty much spawning an INFINITE number of Zed, making guns basically completely unviable for for anything other than summoning massive hordes.

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52 minutes ago, Blake81 said:

 

And I'm afraid I have to inform this bug is affecting spawn rates in an alarming way, pun fully intended-

 

Fired my gun a few times a house, then quickly stealthed to another house (have Inconspicuous and maxed Stealth) and hid in a room whose door had a glass and I could see thru it, and saw Zed spawn not once, but TWICE and go after the alarm.

 

Meaning, every time you use a gun, you're pretty much spawning an INFINITE number of Zed, making guns basically completely unviable for for anything other than summoning massive hordes.


Yeah guns are complete garbage right now. Even the trusty shotgun is worthless. I shot twice pointblank and the zombie still lives. Then firearm skills starts so low that you miss almost everyshot while almost every zombie in the whole game hears you and you suddenly have a massive horde. Not to mention the very low ammunition the game has too.

Police officer and Veteran profession should start with higher Firearm skills, and Hunter trait should give +2 to firearms.

Say Police officer +4 to firearms but costs 0 points

Veteran +6 to firearms but dosn't have desitizied trait instead desitizied is available to everyone and costs 10 points

This way Desentizied won't be locked to only Veteran, because I find myself playing only Veteran just for the trait and I think that is bad. Thick skin and Handy was previously exclusive to Contruction worker, but is now available to everyone and that is a very good change, same should be applied to Desentizied trait.

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I don't think guns are garbage now.    My best run was an Apocalypse mode Veteran who went two weeks before I retired him.     He had around 600 kills,   mostly with a shotgun for training purposes.    He was up to level 5 shooting in two weeks of game time.      Spawning is a known issue iirc.     But there is more ammo than ever.     Ammo in survivor homes and  sometimes boxes of ammo on fallen zeds.     Remember to pause between shots.   You're aiming.      Maybe other moodles were modifying your chances.

 

My next guy was also a Vet and he was bit on day 8.    He went out in a blaze of glory and, wow,  he couldn't shoot well.   I think it was because he had many bad moodles including pain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by feral_donkey

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25 minutes ago, feral_donkey said:

I don't think guns are garbage now.    My best run was an Apocalypse mode Veteran who went two weeks before I retired him.     He had around 600 kills,   mostly with a shotgun for training purposes.    He was up to level 5 shooting in two weeks of game time.      Spawning is a known issue iirc.     But there is more ammo than ever.     Ammo in survivor homes and  sometimes boxes of ammo on fallen zeds.     Remember to pause between shots.   You're aiming.      Maybe other moodles were modifying your chances.

 

My next guy was also a Vet and he was bit on day 8.    He went out in a blaze of glory and, wow,  he couldn't shoot well.   I think it was because he had many bad moodles including pain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How was the agro with the guns though? 

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Aggro was bad but I was training in a distant field so it didn't matter.       In that first run I fired guns in need only around 3 times and completely left the area afterward.    It was just for escapes.

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51 minutes ago, Josko said:

Veteran +6 to firearms but dosn't have desitizied trait instead desitizied is available to everyone and costs 10 points

This way Desentizied won't be locked to only Veteran, because I find myself playing only Veteran just for the trait and I think that is bad. Thick skin and Handy was previously exclusive to Contruction worker, but is now available to everyone and that is a very good change, same should be applied to Desentizied trait.

 

Would be cool if the desensitised trait could potentially be acquired for non-veteran survivor's after they have experienced the apocalypse for an amount of time. It could vary on their traits to equate at what point they would become 'desensitised' based on a set of calculations. The calculations would include variables for 'time the survivor has lived for', 'how much they've panicked/seen' and 'how many zed's they've killed'.

 

E.g, If your character has the 'brawler' trait + additional more 'aggressive' traits they would become desensitised in a shorter amount of time than say someone with more peaceful traits such as 'Pacifist' + others. 

 

Of course this could potentially make the game easier.. but you'd still have to survive for X amount of time. But it's a tad annoying that Veteran's are solely picked just for this trait, especially when the shit our survivors go through must be way more traumatic than what that Veteran must have been through.. 

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1 minute ago, Mr_Sunshine said:

But it's a tad annoying that Veteran's are solely picked just for this trait


Indeed, hope devs make Desentizied available for all, I mean you don't have to be a Veteran do be desentizied, a police officer could be that, or a unemployed, it depends on their past what happend to them. Maybe a character who is unemployed or a police officer or a fire man fought in a war previously and thus is desentizied ( Choosing the desentizied trait ) So yeah it makes sense having it available for everyone!

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