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Spears are new knives. Change my mind.


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Here I want to share my opinion why spears are too OP (at least for low levels) and how I think it could be fixed.

 

Introduction. First of all I want to say THANK YOU DEVS! You managed to turn one of the best survival game to THE BEST survival game ever 😍 ! And it is not really about animations itself but about realism and difficulty. No more superhero style gameplay. My favorite part is a variety of weapons. Apart from openly “funny” weapons 😊 like violins and saxophone, I see how everybody finds their own favorite thing to kill with. Somebody uses a hand axe; the other one says a police baton is the best and so on. Long and short ranges, one weapon is damaging, another is fast, some of them stun zombies, some do everything but they are extremely rare and can’t be repaired (hi to katana 😎).  In other words BALANCE and MEGA VIRIETY. Almost…

 

Why I do think spears are OP. And my suggestions how it could be solved.

 

1) They are easy to get. As soon as u found a kitchen knife or a hunting knife making a spear is a question of couple minutes. Wooden planks are everywhere in cities, branches are everywhere in woods. And furthermore one can make them in a great amount! It’s basically like pre-41 build knives: with 10 butter knives in your inventory you can clear the whole neighborhood.

 

How I think these issues could be solved.

First method is to make them harder to get. For example you also need an axe to make it. It’s also closer to realism since I hardly can imagine how you make a spear from a whole plank only with a knife in adequate amount of time.

The second way (or as additional to the first) is to lower the durability of a spear. Now one spear is enough to kill more than 10 zombies. In my opinion the number should be much lower (5-6).

Another way is very straight forward. Just get rid of the “empty” spears (without knives/forks and so on on the end). It wouldn’t be so much against common sense as well, one can hardly use a self-sharpened end of a mere stick to kill with it in one hit.

Additionally I would like to suggest regarding making spears with knives (and other things) is to use a rope but not duct tape (I am not sure how it’s called in the English version). And ropes should be quite rare. Or for example the player might still use a tape instead of a rope but the durability of the spear would be lower in this case (2/3 or 1/2 of the usual for instance).

 

2) The spears are very long range weapon. Because of this it’s also one of the safest type of a weapon in the game in my opinion.

 

And you know… I’m fine with it! 😁 It should be spear’s feature. It’s main advantage among hundreds (ok maybe tens but I hope one day hundreds 🤤) of other kinds of weapons!

 

3) Player with a spear killing zombies with one hit on the low spear skill levels. Maybe not every hit but definitely every third or fourth. It is already too OP. That is the main core problem. Already some PZ streamers that I watch begin to figure it out (after their audience in comments shouting about new spear “wunderwaffe”) and now instead of constant search for more effective weapon in countless wardrobes and warehouses (as I suppose is one of main game ideas), the first thing they do is making spears (already during the first game day).  Because spears are basically new knives.

 

Spears’ chance of one hit death should be drastically decreased. Again, I am not talking about high levels! I think it’s more than fair then “old and experienced” character with a high level spear skill destroys zombies with 70-85% (!) chance of one hit kill (that actually should apply to almost every type of weapon at the maximum skill, I suppose). But come on! A beginner with a hunting knife spear is pretty much a killing machine. I sure this is a main problem developers wanted to get rid of.

 

That is all! Love new difficulty, new fear of zombie groups, new AWSOME weapons, new crazy variety of clothes, new realism and bond between player and the character. Please, do not think that I am against spears. They definitely should be one of the main weapons of the late game. They just should not push other awesome weapons out of the game! At the very end here my suggestion about  adding to the game a very rare (!) zombie with a spear stuck in its body, I think it would be cool! 😝 What do you think? 😀

 

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Spears are the easiest thing to make in reality.

 

Spears have disadvantages

 

in 1 v 1 Spears are great

But its terrible in groups. The stab \ follow through is slow which gives other enemies time to close up on you.

 

Against bigger groups you would perfer something like a bat, that has more knockback 

 

But I do think spear could use balancing to have a "minimum range" for thrust. 

 

 

 

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And yeah! Another related thing. Screwdrivers. They are also OP both just in hand and on a spear! Have you tried to stab a human flash with a screwdriver? I haven't but I suppose it's not very effectrive. But in the game they seem to be almst effective as hunting knives. And on a spear too! Furthermore, they are pretty durable and can be found almost in every backyard shed. And still they produce one hit kills all the time, just like the best of knives. It is definitly unbalanced. They make hunting knives jealous and sad!

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2 minutes ago, YourRussianZombieFriend said:

And yeah! Another related thing. Screwdrivers. They are also OP both just in hand and on a spear! Have you tried to stab a human flash with a screwdriver? I haven't but I suppose it's not very effectrive. But in the game they seem to be almst effective as hunting knives. And on a spear too! Furthermore, they are pretty durable and can be found almost in every backyard shed. And still they produce one hit kills all the time, just like the best of knives. It is definitly unbalanced. They make hunting knives jealous and sad!

 

It really matters where you shove that screw driver 

 

If it goes through an Eye socket its big enough ( the socket ) to hit the brain easily.
if it hits the Pterion it is also an extremely weak part of the skull to hit the head. 

 

The last part is the area under the corner your jaw at the tip of your sternocleidomastoid, you go up and inward its going to up and hit your midbrain and brain another fatal hit.

WIth that said I think screw drivers are fine, but I feel you should have a higher accuracy to use them more effectively. 

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3 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

Spears are the easiest thing to make in reality.

 

Disagree. I doubt that one can make a spear from a wooden plank just using a knife. You would need an axe at least (to split it in long sticks for a start). But that is not my point. Realism or not, it is a secondary concern regarding to the balanced gameplay.

 

19 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

The stab \ follow through is slow which gives other enemies time to close up on you.

 

The time for close up isn’t noticeably much longer than for other weapons. And a spear is a long range, so you probably would have enough time to deal with others. As my expirience tells me.

 

21 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

Against bigger groups you would perfer something like a bat, that has more knockback 

 

But unlike spears, bats do not oneshot every second zombie…

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11 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

It really matters where you shove that screw driver 

 

If it goes through an Eye socket its big enough ( the socket ) to hit the brain easily.
if it hits the Pterion it is also an extremely weak part of the skull to hit the head. 

 

The last part is the area under the corner your jaw at the tip of your sternocleidomastoid, you go up and inward its going to up and hit your midbrain and brain another fatal hit.

WIth that said I think screw drivers are fine, but I feel you should have a higher accuracy to use them more effectively.

 

My main concern is the gameplay. It should be balanced. Screwdrivers are too durable and common in my opinion. Simple screwdriver on a spear (and in hand) is almost deadly as a professional and rare hunting knife. These spears are killing machines compared to other weapons in the game.

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6 minutes ago, YourRussianZombieFriend said:

 

My main concern is the gameplay. It should be balanced. Screwdrivers are too durable and common in my opinion. Simple screwdriver on a spear (and in hand) is almost deadly as a professional and rare hunting knife. These spears are killing machines compared to other weapons in the game.

 

The balancing should be based on accuracy stat - changing damage would make it pointless.

Essentially if the player has low accuracy it should basically have a low chance to kill 

 

A Spear Screw Driver doesn't make much sense - should be removed

But Single handed screw driver would do a ton of damage - accuracy or not because of the weight and its sharp tip. 

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17 minutes ago, YourRussianZombieFriend said:

 

Disagree. I doubt that one can make a spear from a wooden plank just using a knife. You would need an axe at least (to split it in long sticks for a start). But that is not my point. Realism or not, it is a secondary concern regarding to the balanced gameplay.

 

 

The time for close up isn’t noticeably much longer than for other weapons. And a spear is a long range, so you probably would have enough time to deal with others. As my expirience tells me.

 

 

But unlike spears, bats do not oneshot every second zombie…

 

 

1. Making a spear just requires time , anyone can whittle.

 

 

Especially because a spear is literally just a cone - you are not carving a complicated shape. 

 

The spears should only require a longer animation delay on hit for balance, damage is fine,.

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8 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

A Spear Screw Driver doesn't make much sense - should be removed

 

Ok, here we are both agree, and it is wonderful :)

In my opinion, it could be kept in game, but be severely nerfed, just like a fork on a spear, or a violin: only for sake of freedom of gameplay (basicaly for fun)

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16 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

Making a spear just requires time , anyone can whittle

 

Whittling a whole wooden plank?? Down to a stick?? Really?  "Just requires time"? How much? Three days for one simple stick?

 

 

18526729-worker-man-holding-wooden-planks-while-waving.jpg.d8282ccd2add9b60e33d0e64477be8bd.jpg

 

Again. My suggestion was merely to make spears a little harder to get. For example using not onle knife but also an axe to construct. Together with other measures it would make spears less overpowered. In theory. In my theory. That's all :)

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1 hour ago, YourRussianZombieFriend said:

 

Whittling a whole wooden plank?? Down to a stick?? Really?  "Just requires time"? How much? Three days for one simple stick?

 

 

18526729-worker-man-holding-wooden-planks-while-waving.jpg.d8282ccd2add9b60e33d0e64477be8bd.jpg

 

Again. My suggestion was merely to make spears a little harder to get. For example using not onle knife but also an axe to construct. Together with other measures it would make spears less overpowered. In theory. In my theory. That's all :)

 

It matters how much you know about wood.

1. Wooden Plank first of all is not a "Size" it is a description. Wooden planks come in various sizes for example 3/4x1 

 

The funny thing is you never realized that wood comes in different sizes. We only have a "single size" for gameplay purposes as you wouldn't want to add so much unnecessary variations. 

 

2. Even then you are thinking about a person using a knife to whittle it down to a spear. Which again would be wrong. This is due to your lack of understanding of basic wood working. Do you know how to cut paper perfectly straight line without scissors and using your hand? And no you don't need to know ninjitsu to do it. What you do is create a "crease" along the paper and tear. 

 

Of course you won't be able to fold wood but you can create a crease by using your knife by cutting a edge into the wood where you want to break the plank. If the wood is tough you can boil it in hot water to soften it. Once your wedge is done ( wood is perfectly dry ) you can simply bend and snap it using your foot as leverage.

 

At that point making a spear would take you 2 - 3 hours at most. For a cave man it may days or weeks. For a person of extremely basic understanding  would take 6 hours tops.  If you had a Screw Driver \ Chisel and Hammer it would be even faster and easier. 

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I think the axe requirement for making the spear as you suggest is a silly requirement. 

 

I was surprised the base spear didn't require a "sturdy stick" from the build option under General. You need a saw and planks to make the sturdy stick. 

 

Duct tape is extremely useful and you can easily make a spear IRL using a broom stick and a kitchen knife using duct tape. How long it would last, probably not long. 

 

I honestly think the crafting condition of items should be based on the level of the skill. PZ lacks some consistency sometimes, like building walls we get 3 grades. Why not for weapons do something similar where early on, when you craft a spear its a grade 1 spear which means its damage and condition are lower. Later you can craft a grade 3 spear using the same materials but the damage and the condition are higher. 

 

That would be IMO better than just requiring an axe to make the spear. 

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17 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

It matters how much you know about wood.

1. Wooden Plank first of all is not a "Size" it is a description. Wooden planks come in various sizes for example 3/4x1 

 

The funny thing is you never realized that wood comes in different sizes. We only have a "single size" for gameplay purposes as you wouldn't want to add so much unnecessary variations. 

 

2. Even then you are thinking about a person using a knife to whittle it down to a spear. Which again would be wrong. This is due to your lack of understanding of basic wood working. Do you know how to cut paper perfectly straight line without scissors and using your hand? And no you don't need to know ninjitsu to do it. What you do is create a "crease" along the paper and tear. 

 

Of course you won't be able to fold wood but you can create a crease by using your knife by cutting a edge into the wood where you want to break the plank. If the wood is tough you can boil it in hot water to soften it. Once your wedge is done ( wood is perfectly dry ) you can simply bend and snap it using your foot as leverage.

 

At that point making a spear would take you 2 - 3 hours at most. For a cave man it may days or weeks. For a person of extremely basic understanding  would take 6 hours tops.  If you had a Screw Driver \ Chisel and Hammer it would be even faster and easier

 

Come on. I do realize that planks come in different sizes and the game simplifies it in one size for the sake of gameplay. There is no need in "...due to your lack of understanding of basic bla bla bla...".

 

Come on. One can make a toothpick out of a log just with a knife, If he/she really wants it. Believe me, no one argues 😊

 

Come on. You are writting here about boiling whater, drying wood, 6 hours tops, whittle video guides from youtube and other staff 😃. No one at this forum is interested in wood cutting technics, I suppose. We are discussing here PZ! My idea is only that spears should be somehow nerfed. Make them less tempting for players to use during the (first) game time. For example (only as example) by requiring some other instrument besides a simple kitchen knife for making them out of planks. For instance an axe, or something else, or sausepan full of boiling water as you suggested 😅 - I persanly do not care much, the only thing I would like is a nerf of honestly OP weapon that ruins to some extend gamplay balance for me and apparently for others. That's it. Calm down with a whittling :)

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11 minutes ago, Krumple said:

Why not for weapons do something similar where early on, when you craft a spear its a grade 1 spear which means its damage and condition are lower. Later you can craft a grade 3 spear using the same materials but the damage and the condition are higher. 

 

That is actually also a nice idea! 😊 Why not?

 

12 minutes ago, Krumple said:

That would be IMO better than just requiring an axe to make the spear. 

 

You see, my goal is to find out how to prevent player rushing to craft one-shot spears seconds after spawning in the world. How it would be prevented I do not care much. You all are speaking here about an axe, but my initial idea was little wider: again I want spears to be not so tempting among other weapons (that you should by the way constantly search for - in other words risking, unlike spears that again can be made in a great amount in the middle of forest just with a kitchen knife). It is not about axe, it is about gameplay balance 😊

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7 hours ago, YourRussianZombieFriend said:

The second way (or as additional to the first) is to lower the durability of a spear. Now one spear is enough to kill more than 10 zombies. In my opinion the number should be much lower (5-6).

 

I have been nearly exclusively using spears in my run, while the damage and instant kill chance is great, one spear is only good for 1-3 zombies top. I don't believe wooden spears' already low durability should be nerfed. I have been left unarmed for days because I can't get any tree branches with my forage rolls as well.

 

53 minutes ago, Krumple said:

I was surprised the base spear didn't require a "sturdy stick" from the build option under General. You need a saw and planks to make the sturdy stick. 

 

Duct tape is extremely useful and you can easily make a spear IRL using a broom stick and a kitchen knife using duct tape. How long it would last, probably not long. 

 

I honestly think the crafting condition of items should be based on the level of the skill. PZ lacks some consistency sometimes, like building walls we get 3 grades. Why not for weapons do something similar where early on, when you craft a spear its a grade 1 spear which means its damage and condition are lower. Later you can craft a grade 3 spear using the same materials but the damage and the condition are higher.

I really, really like this idea. I think it's most fair idea so far and also is a little something towards earning carpentry xp.

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18 hours ago, YourRussianZombieFriend said:

 

Disagree. I doubt that one can make a spear from a wooden plank just using a knife. You would need an axe at least (to split it in long sticks for a start). 

You most certainly don't need an axe to make a spear. You do realize that spears were one of the first tools that humans created well before axes right? It is quite literally one of the most basic weapons ever created. That said I can't really comment on how powerful they are as I haven't tried one yet. I'm only saying you can easily make a spear with a simple blade. Perhaps not from planks, but it can and has been done.

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From my experience, although the spears are great in damage and distance, they break too fast. You would probably need 3 or 4 dozen spears just to get level 1 in the combat related skill. And since you can't repair them, using a machete to make a machete spear is a waste. You can repair the machete but not the machete spear. Once the machete spear is broken you can't get the machete back. It makes absolutely no sense to me but what ever. The machete by itself is better than the spear version. I honestly think this needs to be fixed. 

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21 hours ago, YourRussianZombieFriend said:

 

Come on. I do realize that planks come in different sizes and the game simplifies it in one size for the sake of gameplay. There is no need in "...due to your lack of understanding of basic bla bla bla...".

 

Come on. One can make a toothpick out of a log just with a knife, If he/she really wants it. Believe me, no one argues 😊

 

Come on. You are writting here about boiling whater, drying wood, 6 hours tops, whittle video guides from youtube and other staff 😃. No one at this forum is interested in wood cutting technics, I suppose. We are discussing here PZ! My idea is only that spears should be somehow nerfed. Make them less tempting for players to use during the (first) game time. For example (only as example) by requiring some other instrument besides a simple kitchen knife for making them out of planks. For instance an axe, or something else, or sausepan full of boiling water as you suggested 😅 - I persanly do not care much, the only thing I would like is a nerf of honestly OP weapon that ruins to some extend gamplay balance for me and apparently for others. That's it. Calm down with a whittling :)

 

But the problem here is you made it sound it was impossible, I am saying it is quite possible there is a big difference. 

Not only do planks come in different sizes it is not hard to make a spear out of most sizes with a simple knife.

 

Personally I am against the current crafting system and want Devs to add in a "crafting table" \ "work bench"  

Which is not uncommon in certain suburban houses. 

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My opinion about the crafting discussion: It should be kept as simple as possible. I do not want to bother with 10 materials just to craft 1 item. This stops the game from being fun and just adds more tediousness again. 

 

Making a spear from sticks and knife is totally fine to me. Hell, I don't even mind the plank, even though I, too, would have rather guessed on sticks being required. 

 

Can't say much about spears being OP or not, haven't used them much yet (not enough duct tape available).

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16 hours ago, Krumple said:

From my experience, although the spears are great in damage and distance, they break too fast. You would probably need 3 or 4 dozen spears just to get level 1 in the combat related skill. And since you can't repair them, using a machete to make a machete spear is a waste. You can repair the machete but not the machete spear. Once the machete spear is broken you can't get the machete back. It makes absolutely no sense to me but what ever. The machete by itself is better than the spear version. I honestly think this needs to be fixed. 


I agree, but it's very easily modded otherwise :P

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22 hours ago, ZombieHunter said:

Personally I am against the current crafting system and want Devs to add in a "crafting table" \ "work bench"  

Which is not uncommon in certain suburban houses. 

 

The only real thing I don't like about the work bench / table idea is if you need it to make "everything". It basically would render on the move crafting much more difficult and annoying. I hate having to go back to the same spot just to make something. I like the ability to craft on the go. Having to run all over the place to get the materials then go back to the work bench to make something then go back to another spot to use it, just gets tedious and time consuming. I like being able to gather on the move and make spears as I need them rather than carry a bunch. 

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59 minutes ago, Krumple said:

 

The only real thing I don't like about the work bench / table idea is if you need it to make "everything". It basically would render on the move crafting much more difficult and annoying. I hate having to go back to the same spot just to make something. I like the ability to craft on the go. Having to run all over the place to get the materials then go back to the work bench to make something then go back to another spot to use it, just gets tedious and time consuming. I like being able to gather on the move and make spears as I need them rather than carry a bunch. 

 

The Devs want reality - that is the harsh reality. 
More importantly the crafting system is 1000% garbage right now. Every single item listed in a single menu with 10+ tabs. 

 

Crafting tables clean up the GUI. 
There of course can be things which can be done by players on the go, but finding a house and keeping record of where tables exist would not be too hard.

 

As well as eventually crafting your own table after you decide on a base. 

The table it self could be innovative and mobile. 

 

For example Toolbox + wrench + hammer + knife + screw driver  You place it on the ground on an empty tile it becomes a crafting bench. Which adds new recipes on interaction. But you can lift it up and put it into your inventory like a normal item.

 

But right now the current crafting GUI has to go. 

Out of 300+ games I have played over the years would definitely by the top 3 worst crafting GUIs i have ever seen. 

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