Build 41 Gun Specific Stuff

[Bourbon]

Just my two cents on the gun stuff in the new build 41 IWBUMS, likely I am gonna add more to the list while playing more.

 

If you comment a suggestion in the thread I will put it in the top post for better visibility. Keep the good stuff coming!

 

Praize:

-Revolver loading animation is great!

-Shotgun Racking feels Awsome!

-I like that you have three revolvers and one is in .45 ACP. That makes for interesting gameplay as you can use the same ammo that the 1911 uses.

 

 

Critizism:

 

Overall Gunhandling:

-If a gun jamms we need a more clear message, the PC could mabye say "Shit jammed" Also include which button to press to unjam.

-Pistols should NOT spawn without a magazine. This ist just frustrating.

-Magazines should spawn A LOT! more.

-Ammo should spawn a lot more. There is no sense in nerfing guns that way.

-There needs to be a way to level "aiming" quicker. Early shooting levels are just frustrating. Maybe add a Magazine that teaches the PC basic sighting and gives them a easier time. Or doing target practice out in the woods.

-Long guns should spawn on zeds too. Like a M16 for the bank robbers. (dont know if it is already in or not, mabye its just reaaally rare, suggested by Tails)

-When a Zombie is very close, and you have a handgun you should be able to just put the gun against the zombies head and instantly shoot him instead of shoving (suggested by crossed)

-Weight does need to be adjusted to the firearms. The Snubnose Revolver should be a lot lighter than the Desert Eagle.

-Guns should also be able to be put on a belt slot. This DOES NOT make Holsters obsolete, because having a holster gives you a faster draw and a quickslot more.

 

Revolver:

-When unloading a revolver the text reads "Rack Revolver" this is worng Right text would be ----->  Unload Revolver, should also just unload the whole cylinder, there is no use in just taking one bullet out with a revolver.

-When "racking" a revolver the sound is of a spinning cylinder, that makes no sense

-Shooting sound of a revolver is reeeeeally bad, sorry

-When reloading a revolver, PC should dump out all the cartriges and load from start (thats how you do it, taking single casings out doesn´t work because they stick to the chamber. You have to use the cylinder plunger.) See ORGM Rechambered.

-Speed loaders would be nice to have for  reloading a revolver  much faster than slow bullet by bullet reloading. (Suggested by Tails)

 

 

 

Shotgun:

-Doublebarrled shotgun has no option to be "sawn off" (suggested by Crossbow7734)

-Shotguns could have two options to be sawn off. Only barrel, which reduces weight a bit and increases spread. Or Barrel and stock, which makes it a pistolgrip. Reduces weight by a lot and increases spread AND recovery time (time to have an accurate shot again, mabye for PCs with low gun skill chance to get hit in the face by recoil)

-Doublebarrled shotgun has a animation where it is coocked again after each shot. This doesnt make sense. It looks to me like a hammerless shotgun. Even if it has hammers, there would be no reason to NOT cock both hammers.

 

Hunting Rifle:

-Both should have internal Magazines like they were before. A detachable 3 round mag is just useless.

 

Ammunition:

-Pistol boxes should contain 50 rounds not 30

-Rifle Ammo boxes should contain 20 not 40 rounds

-Shotgun boxes should contain 25 not 24 rounds (this is the amount of any real shotgun shell box)

-Loading Magazines is waaaaay to fast, was good last build, there was no need to change

 

 

Already adressed by the devs:

 

-Revolvers shoudn´t jam like they do now. If a revolver jamms you can´t "just rack it" like a pistol. A revolver doesnt have the malfunctions that a pistol can have. This should be reworked that revolvers cannot jam. (There is a lot that can go wrong with a revolver IRL, but for a game it would make sense if it would be the more reliable option, but with less firepower. (This is supposed to be fixed, havn´t tried it myself.)

 

-Guns seem to fire to slow. I cannot fire them fast. (Fixed, now it depends on your aiming level how fast you can fire)

 

-If your PC has a good aiming skill the animation for racking should be shorter. The PC could rack the shotgun while shouldered which makes it faster. (Already done, but without a seperate animation)

 

What are your opinions?

Edited December 17, 2019 by Bourbon

[Neonwarrior]

Set out the good dishes! Bourbon has come to visit!

 

I agree with pretty much everything. The gun jamming is especially important, otherwise the message sent to the player is that you ran out of ammo when all you need to do is unjam the weapon.  I'd also like a better aiming UI so I don't have to trust that the aim of my weapon is correct, Resident Evil style. I want an indication of when my weapon is as steady as it can possibly get, like in CDDA.

 

 

[Bourbon]

Also:

 

Has anyone found the double barrled shotgun or the assault rifles? Are they still disabled?

 

Mabye a bug and they arent in the loot table.

[Bourbon]

I updated the main post, with what the devs already adressed.

[Tails]

Firearms spawns on zombie corpses : Currently only M9 and 1911 pistols only seem to be found on a zombie corpse as well as 9mm and .45 ammunition it could use more types of gun spawns on zombies such as revolvers of all types and D-E pistol as well as other types ammunition.

 

Also would be interesting to see some 2 handed guns spawn on the back of zombies.

 

:Revolvers: Speed loaders would be nice to have for  reloading a revolver  much faster than slow bullet by bullet reloading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ZombieHunter]

On 10/18/2019 at 2:22 PM, Bourbon said:

When unloading a revolver the text reads "Rack Revolver" this is worng Right text would be ----->  Unload Revolver, should also just unload the whole cylinder, there is no use in just taking one bullet out with a revolver.

-When "racking" a revolver the sound is of a spinning cylinder, that makes no sense

 

It is technically right term.

 

Normally when you have a gun you have a single Chamber. 

With a Revolver though each hole in the cylinder is a Chamber.

 

Unloading and Reloading should happen in a single gameplay action and not 2 separate actions. 

 

Unless you are saying there is no option only to unload the bullets without reloading ( haven't found revolver yet ) 

Edited November 1, 2019 by ZombieHunter

[Fenris_Wolf]

15 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

It is technically right term.

 

Absolutely the wrong term. 'Racking' is the action of pulling the slide or bolt to the rear and back forwards, extracting whatever is in the chamber and loading  the next round.

As you stated, with a revolver each spot in the cylinder is the chamber. There is nothing  to 'rack'.

[ZombieHunter]

11 hours ago, Fenris_Wolf said:

 

Absolutely the wrong term. 'Racking' is the action of pulling the slide or bolt to the rear and back forwards, extracting whatever is in the chamber and loading  the next round.

As you stated, with a revolver each spot in the cylinder is the chamber. There is nothing  to 'rack'.

 

You are describing the full set of actions in order to move the round from the magazine into the chamber of a standard pistol \ rifle.

 

In case of revolver none of those steps exist.

Instead the procedure is simply putting the bullet directly into the chamber. 

 

To put it as an analogy.

"Walking through the door"

 

You would normally give instructions as stop at the door, turn the handle, open the door, walk through the door. 

But in case of Automatic doors it would be - stand infront of the door and walk through.

 

The action is the same - the steps slightly differ because one action is no longer required.

[EnigmaGrey]

16 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

 

You are describing the full set of actions in order to move the round from the magazine into the chamber of a standard pistol \ rifle.

 

In case of revolver none of those steps exist.

Instead the procedure is simply putting the bullet directly into the chamber. 

 

To put it as an analogy.

"Walking through the door"

 

You would normally give instructions as stop at the door, turn the handle, open the door, walk through the door. 

But in case of Automatic doors it would be - stand infront of the door and walk through.

 

The action is the same - the steps slightly differ because one action is no longer required.

Even I, a gun-fearin' Canadian knows you don't rack revolvers, ZombieHunter.

 

Go ahead, google it: I'm confident every example you'll find mentions the requirement of there  being a slide to rack in the first place. Though you'll find lots of lovely wooden revolver racks to store your collection on. I can only guess you've confused it with cocking  ... itself pretty much pointless outside of movies. due to the prevalence of double-action revolvers, iirc. Fenris would know, though. He loves this stuff.

[ZombieHunter]

3 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Even I, a gun-fearin' Canadian knows you don't rack revolvers, ZombieHunter.

 

Go ahead, google it: I'm confident every example you'll find mentions the requirement of there  being a slide to rack in the first place. Though you'll find lots of lovely wooden revolver racks to store your collection on. I can only guess you've confused it with cocking  ... itself pretty much pointless outside of movies. due to the prevalence of double-action revolvers, iirc. Fenris would know, though. He loves this stuff.

 

That is because the origin of the term got muddled - the one used by fire arms is simply a modification of the original concept.

 

A rack is essentially a place where "items are kept for storage" 

Racking is the action of "putting that item on a rack".

 

In the case of guns - the rack is the chamber. 

So the definition would be placing the bullet into the chamber.

 

If I was putting an item on the shelf - if I use one hand, two hands, a fork lift in all cases I am racking the item. 

 

The same applies to a weapon. It doesn't matter the steps involved - what matters in the end is the the end result of the bullet in the chamber.

Edited November 2, 2019 by ZombieHunter

[Fenris_Wolf]

53 minutes ago, ZombieHunter said:

A rack is essentially a place where "items are kept for storage" 

Wrong rack. The term is derived from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack-and-pinion

 

A rack and pinion is a type of linear actuator that comprises a circular gear (the pinion) engaging a linear gear (the rack), which operate to translate rotational motion into linear motion. Driving the pinion into rotation causes the rack to be driven linearly. Driving the rack linearly will cause the pinion to be driven into a rotation.

 

Thus 'racking a firearm' is the linear motion of moving the bolt backwards and forwards.

[Josko]

I remember playing Last stand: Union city, there you could find zombies with a shotgun or assault rifle on their back or a missing. 

 

Would be amazing if the same was applied to zomboid but with a rare chance to encounter such a zombie with a fricking assault rifle on their back^^

[Badgzerz]

My only existing discovered complaints with guns is that they are far too heavy and I haven't used them because early aim skill makes them coupled with very scarce ammo useless. My second complaint is that gun weights need to be realistic. Please. I can't use the gun well because of accuracy, and I can't carry  it when using it early on because it weighs too much. 

The double barreled shotgun is FAR too heavy. It weighs 2.5kg irl but in game its 4kg. This is unusably heavy. 

The JS2000 is also too heavy, but its not 1.5kg too heavy. Unloaded a 6 round tube fed shotgun weighs under 3.5kg. In game it weighs 4kg which is 1/2kg too heavy, and 1/2 more kg on your back is dead weight that could go to medical supplies, tools, a radio, or clothing. 

 

I don't think ammo should be common enough to be shot haphazardly, but .22LR needs to be added, this ammo wouldn't be effective for killing zeds unless you had a high aim skill. It would be light, very common, have very low recoil and thus somewhat high accuracy, and it would be utterly incapable of hunting game larger than beaver. .22 would be the caliber you shoot as much as you can early on to level up aim to graduate to using an M9, an MSR788, M16, or other revolver/rifle below .308/.44.

Leveling firearm skills should be a graduation process from .22 to 9mm/5.56 to .45/20 gauge to .44/.308. 

 

I really don't like the use of the word rack opposed to rechamber, its improper and confusing terminology. It also conveys that the developers (bless them this is a good game) don't understand firearms on a tangible level. I wish I could rebind 'racking' to Alt+R as it is much more intuitive and I've learned to instinctively use it playing escape from tarkov. Using alt/ctrl + R to perform secondary actions to main actions like reloading is such an intuitive format tbh.  I reload the magazine in the gun with R. I reload the chamber in the gun with Alt+R. Its intuitive to me, maybe not for you. 

 

I think there should be a comprehensive look over of guns when the developers get around to rethinking their implementation, and that this look over comes from a perspective of realism and practicality. 

 

As for gun attachments, here are my thoughts:

Sling, required to carry the gun on your back, stabilizes your aim when you press the sling key and makes you more accurate, but it prevents you from swapping to melee or a pistol until you unwrap the sling from your arm. You need to read a magazine or have the right profession to know how to use the sling technique, or the necessary skill level.

Fiberglass stock, reduces weight.

Suppressor, decreases weapon reliability, increases rate of fire if automatic, increases weight. Reduces volume somewhat but greatly reduces sound distance. Can be threaded onto a barrel or attached onto a muzzle brake. 

Muzzle brake, increases recoil recovery, doubles gun volume and distance perpendicular to the direction you fired. Requires the barrel to be threaded.

Scope, increases weight and accuracy. Decreases perception angle when used but massively increases accuracy when standing still if not done already/

Bayonet, allows the gun to be used as a spear. Only bolt actions, M16's, and M14's can take bayonets. 

Choke, increases accuracy, decreases crowd control ability.  With a choke you could expect a shotgun to one hit kill every zombie with no aim skill. 

 

As for gun crafting, it is very easy to make a slamfire pipe shotgun. You just need two pipes, a nail, and a piece of wood. 

 

 

 

As for automated gun systems, recoil recovery and accuracy should be directly tied to weight automatically and intuitively. Here is how I'll frame it:

Heavy gun; Exhausts your character greatly to aim and hold aimed, good recoil recovery, average aim.

Light gun; Exhausts your character lightly to aim and hold aimed, bad recoil recovery, average aim.

Average gun(not heavy, not light, perfectly balanced between the two); Average exhaustion, average recoil recovery, good aim. 

The aim part seems confusing as you think you could hold a 1 pound gun steady better than a 12 pound gun, but there is a sweet spot because a really light gun has no inertia. The weight of a gun would also impact how different strength characters use guns. A high strength character would aim a light gun less accurately than a heavy gun. 

This is because the mass of your blood pulsing is enough to overcome the inertia of a light gun to move it.

These mechanics should be clearly defined on the wiki so players can automatically know how their gun will handle just by looking at the weight of it, and its type too. 

 

Maybe I'll spend an hour and cohesively organize and format a suggestion thread when I gain more experience with guns in game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Badgzerz]

On 11/2/2019 at 12:47 PM, Fenris_Wolf said:

Wrong rack. The term is derived from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack-and-pinion

 

A rack and pinion is a type of linear actuator that comprises a circular gear (the pinion) engaging a linear gear (the rack), which operate to translate rotational motion into linear motion. Driving the pinion into rotation causes the rack to be driven linearly. Driving the rack linearly will cause the pinion to be driven into a rotation.

 

Thus 'racking a firearm' is the linear motion of moving the bolt backwards and forwards.

What firearms have rotational motion that needs to be translated to linear motion? When I first picked up a gun racking confused me a bit as I'm so used to technical terms like cycle.