Ethroptur Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) Power after the electricity shuts off should be producible via means other than simply using a fuel generator. For instance, small wind turbines IRL are used to power battery chargers and mobile homes. Subsequently, they could fit the role of a power source that is both renewable and quiet, unlike the fuel generator, provided that the player could find any, or construct them once they reach a high enough mechanical and/or electric skill. The obvious trade off would be that they're less efficient. Furthermore, I think also giving the player the ability to find and/or build home batteries, again under the condition that they have a high enough mechanical and/or electric skill. Edited September 14, 2019 by Ethroptur Octopus, TrailerParkThor and grammarsalad 3
OffitMan Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 Alternative sources of power is worth exploring but one issue I have with wind turbines and solar panels (that others have suggested previously) is that they are silent. With fuel generators, the risk-reward is obvious. Zombies will be drawn to the sound of the running generator but you get to power your safe house. If not thought about properly, I can easily see them being OP and a situation where players just choose to be an engineer, run to a house in the middle of nowhere, build a few wind turbines and live a completely sheltered and hazard free life because no danger comes their way. Perhaps wind turbines could be quite fragile and would require frequent repairs in stormy weather. I often think in the end of days/apocalyptic scenarios, people would revert back to old ways of doing things. Water wheels have been used since the Persian Empire. In the apocalypse, I can definitely see someone constructing a water wheel out of wood and buckets to generate some power with a dynamo, like a primitive hydroelectric dam. The drawback of water wheels is the reliance of flowing water so they could only be located next to the river. I'd like to see more sources of power providing there are pros and cons for using them and none become godlike.
ZombieHunter Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 3 hours ago, OffitMan said: If not thought about properly, I can easily see them being OP and a situation where players just choose to be an engineer, run to a house in the middle of nowhere, build a few wind turbines and live a completely sheltered and hazard free life because no danger comes their way. Perhaps wind turbines could be quite fragile and would require frequent repairs in stormy weather. Your statement is very true but balancing would not be hard because of the existing limitations the system has. Wind Generator. So there are 2 types of wind Generators basically Industrial Generator - which needs to be manufactured with rare earth magnets which can power a few houses Home Made Generator - You can rig up with the parts you can find around but would take a full day to powerup a tub of batteries. Simply put unless they add industrial wind generator onto the map it can't be constructed so player would have to stick to the simple one. While it wouldn't make much noise it is too inefficient to power a household. Instead, all you would be able to do at most is charge a jury-rigged Battery pack. There would be the 2nd issue, the parts to make them would be pretty rare. So it would also take you a while to get enough parts to make enough windmills to actually be able to power your house. Which is fine, considering the amount of effort the player has to go through to even reach that stage should reward the player. Essentially Wind Mills is balanced by Some parts rare to obtain parts ( Generator would be hardest to find, the rest would simply be finding enough metal and cables and batteries ) Power output is low Dependent on Wind conditions Medium skill in electronics and metal working A considerable amount of resources need to be gathered Solar Power Solar Power Works in almost the same idea as Wind Power but has its own issues. For example, wouldn't work at night. More importantly, you can't craft most parts you have to actually find panels and the generator. While arguably easier of the two to setup, it also produces less energy per square foot. A Cell phone sized panel, for example, would take 6 hours in perfect weather conditions to charge a cell phone battery. So if we were going for more practical applications of Small \ Medium Panels ( Large would not be practical to tranport so again would be jury-rigged solution of combining 4 medium. You would probably need Roughly 16 Large panel to power a house/ That would be; 64 Medium Panels 256 Small Panels Which again would mean balancing works out nicely The player would have to spend a considerable amount of time to find even rarer parts than a Windmill. Keep in mind this is 90s Rural Kentucky. Solar power here would be akin to black magic so the parts would be extremely rare. Dependent on sun light Needs a lot of surface area Bio Diesel Probably the easiest to and most reliable of the 3. Unlike the other Bio Diesel probably has the least amount of rare parts required and produces significantly more power. But has its own issues It is loud Requires a large farm to support Has to first grow the plants, then break down the plants Time consuming to generate fuel ---- So to summarize nothing really is "overpowered" cause it requires the player a long long time to even reach the stage where a silent running base would be viable. Honestly I think it would greatly add to the game. grammarsalad 1
Guest Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 So much of this isn't going to happen because the game is set in 1993 and not 2000. Crap solar from an 80s rv or children toy, wood gas, wind turbines. Not biodiesel, residential solar panels .ect.
ZombieHunter Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 50 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said: So much of this isn't going to happen because the game is set in 1993 and not 2000. Crap solar from an 80s rv or children toy, wood gas, wind turbines. Not biodiesel, residential solar panels .ect. Biodiesel Generators back then was not something you find but instead something you make. Keep in mind we had full scale biodiesel generators in 1980s and before that learned how to convert existing Diesel generator to a BioDiesel specific one. Essentially all early Biodiesel generators were just Jury-Rigged existing diesel generator. Of course it is not something you do easily and there are quite a few parts to replace but that is what making surviving fun having that McGuyver moment. Okamikurainya and Octopus 2
Okamikurainya Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, MrBlue said: They mine coal in Kentucky, don’t they? Nothing near Muldraugh it seems, sadly. There is the Muldraugh Dome though, an area stretching from Brandenburg to Muldraugh where geodes appear on the surface. Would be awesome to be able to explore a mine, even if you couldn't actually do any mining, just to descend into its' dark dank depths, fighting undead miners... Biofuel is the best bet for a realistic addition. BioGas has even been in use since the 1980s, so there's that as well.
Burger_Time Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 33 minutes ago, MrBlue said: I'm pretty sure some of the in-game locations are entirely fictional; Riverside, Rosewood, and March Ridge. We wanted a big prison, so we created Rosewood. Why not do the same to get a coal mine? Just a 'lil note — March ridge is real. Mostly.
Guest Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 1 hour ago, ZombieHunter said: Biodiesel Generators back then was not something you find but instead something you make. Keep in mind we had full scale biodiesel generators in 1980s and before that learned how to convert existing Diesel generator to a BioDiesel specific one. Essentially all early Biodiesel generators were just Jury-Rigged existing diesel generator. Of course it is not something you do easily and there are quite a few parts to replace but that is what making surviving fun having that McGuyver moment. I'm very skeptical of that. I think you've confused it with wood gas. Civil Defense went so far as to send out pamphlets on their construction in 80s. Or maybe multi-fuel engines, such as those that can burn kerosene or alcohol, rather than biodiesel (oil treated with enzymes blended with methanol). Biodiesel, though it started gaining popularity in the late 90s, really didn't come to fruition until the gas price crunch in 2005-2007. Just looking it up on Google, it seems biodiesel was much more successful in Europe early on than in the US, like many things.
Octopus Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 We should definitely be able to convert vehicles and generators to run on alcohol. Although alcohol-powered engines tend to have problems starting in cold temperatures, so you might need an alternate source of power during the winter. grammarsalad 1
ZombieHunter Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said: I'm very skeptical of that. I think you've confused it with wood gas. Civil Defense went so far as to send out pamphlets on their construction in 80s. Or maybe multi-fuel engines, such as those that can burn kerosene or alcohol, rather than biodiesel (oil treated with enzymes blended with methanol). Biodiesel, though it started gaining popularity in the late 90s, really didn't come to fruition until the gas price crunch in 2005-2007. Just looking it up on Google, it seems biodiesel was much more successful in Europe early on than in the US, like many things. As I mentioned earlier you are confusing commercial generator with Homemade generators. So going back to the 90s - a person would simply need to change out their rubber tubing and gaskets and filter as well as making a custom made tank with heater. All this can easily be done at home and in case of zomboid with scavanged parts from a car engine. Biofuel is the best part. Kentucky is famous for Moonshine The only major difference between Moonshine and Biofuel is the percentage of proof has to be higher in Biofuel. This can be done by having multiple distillations passes to reduce water content. Now you better not say 90s Kentucky decided to give up on making home made hooch. Edited September 15, 2019 by ZombieHunter
Guest Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 5 hours ago, ZombieHunter said: As I mentioned earlier you are confusing commercial generator with Homemade generators. So going back to the 90s - a person would simply need to change out their rubber tubing and gaskets and filter as well as making a custom made tank with heater. All this can easily be done at home and in case of zomboid with scavanged parts from a car engine. Biofuel is the best part. Kentucky is famous for Moonshine The only major difference between Moonshine and Biofuel is the percentage of proof has to be higher in Biofuel. This can be done by having multiple distillations passes to reduce water content. Now you better not say 90s Kentucky decided to give up on making home made hooch. So, not "biodiesel." You mean burning a blend of heated vegetable oil and solvent, such as . . . diesel or gas. No "generator" necessary unless you mean filtering used fry oil, which was popular for a time (restaurants used to just throw it out). Yeah, conversion kits became popular for this in the early 2000s, as I said above when the price of gas started to skyrocket. It didn't make sense to do this before -- the conversion kits were more complicated than you're making it out to be - and if you mess it up, you end up fouling the engine with carbon deposits. "Easily done ... with scavenged parts from a car engine" my arse. Easily done in 2019, with Youtube and readily available aftermarket parts, sure. That's implying a hell of a lot more technical know-how than most people ever bother to pick up in their lifetimes, let alone in 1993, when knowing about this tech made little sense. American gas was cheap as hell back then (it doubled in 2004-2005, making this popular and "common" knowledge for truck enthusiasts.)
ZombieHunter Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 1 hour ago, EnigmaGrey said: So, not "biodiesel." You mean burning a blend of heated vegetable oil and solvent, such as . . . diesel or gas. No "generator" necessary unless you mean filtering used fry oil, which was popular for a time (restaurants used to just throw it out). Yeah, conversion kits became popular for this in the early 2000s, as I said above when the price of gas started to skyrocket. It didn't make sense to do this before -- the conversion kits were more complicated than you're making it out to be - and if you mess it up, you end up fouling the engine with carbon deposits. "Easily done ... with scavenged parts from a car engine" my arse. Easily done in 2019, with Youtube and readily available aftermarket parts, sure. That's implying a hell of a lot more technical know-how than most people ever bother to pick up in their lifetimes, let alone in 1993, when knowing about this tech made little sense. American gas was cheap as hell back then (it doubled in 2004-2005, making this popular and "common" knowledge for truck enthusiasts.) Well you could go either way Either take restaurant oil and just filter it a couple of times to make Biodiesel - which there are many places on the map to pinch from. Or Filter Hooch enough to remove the water content. I just went with Hooch cause Kentucky is famous for it. More importantly hooch can be made by farming the materials which gives it an added advantage the down side would have course being growing it and fermenting it. As for needing conversion kits - that is only for people who didn't know how to fabricate parts on their own. Anyone with a set of instructions can fabricate the parts in their workshop. Same way players make doors or explosives. With that said an instruction manual on fabrication is all the person would need to make the necessary changes to a generator. The reason you would salvage the cars is you want newer model cars with that came out in the 90s which had higher grade rubber hoses \ gaskets to replace and repair the ones on the generator. After all zomboid already has many instruction manuals, magazines, books to unlock recipes as well as T.V. With a high enough skill level in Mechanical Engineering anyone would be able to do it following an instruction manual. Okamikurainya 1
Okamikurainya Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) Petrol pumps have, on average, around 20000litres in their underground tanks IRL. The average car gas tank can hold around 45litres, if I'm not mistaken. That's a lot for one person, 444 full car gas tanks, give or take. It's impossible the tanks would run dry in singleplayer, but that's singleplayer, without any sort of simulation of other survivors having used the tanks... Multiplayer is a whole other beast, and depending on the longevity and player count of the server, I think it might be possible for the tanks to run dry. But that's only one station, and one pump... I think there are 7 petrol stations? That's 140000litres if they all have one underground tank... That's 3111 full car gas tanks with a low-ball estimate. If we want to be realistic, not all the pump stations would be at full capacity, but even so... I know the amount is currently infinite, but even if it was a finite source based on what is average, there would realistically be so much fuel on the map that even a large server would have trouble using it all. Don't get me wrong, I want BioDiesel and "Gasohol" as options, they could deteriorate your engine/generator faster and I'm always up for options. I'm just running some numbers. Edited September 16, 2019 by Okamikurainya
DresdenBBQ Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) Residential solar panels have been around since the early 90's but the technology wasn't wildly explored due oppressive taxes which make them more expenses, landlords who've outlawed them on their buildings, and their heavy production price due to a lack of mass production seeing as the renewable energy market simply cannot compete with the already well established fossil fuel industry. However they still did exist but the problem with solar panels is that the solar cells in the panels deteriorate over time and need to be replaced after a certain amount of time or your solar panels will cease to work. While this isn't a problem for us in the year of our lord 2019, our global market easily has the ability to produce these solar cells (If it would actually choose to do so instead of fracking and mining more), it's still a more cost efficient and waste efficient way of producing energy than coal or gas. However in 1993 solar panels weren't exactly popular so getting new solar cells for your panels would be extremely difficult in rural Kentucky in 1993, not to mention the solar power at the time was more unreliable and had a faster deterioration rate. Wind power has been around for longer but I'd like to point out that wind power isn't what I'd describe as "silent." It still makes noise depending on the speed of the wind and I do think it the amount of sound it generates could be incorporated into the game since I believe a weather overhaul is planned in the future? It would also allow for different watts of electricity to be produced dependin on the strength of the wind. That or either give them a lower overall power production rate so that you'd have to have more wind turbines to equal that of a generator but make them slightly quieter so they can seem like a more end game item to craft/steal. Or make them have overall *more* noise because after all, you don't have to constantly fill them up with gas and can leave them to do their own thing. I don't really think solar panels are feasible, but with the right amount of balancing, wind power would definitely be a cool end game addition to the game. Edited September 16, 2019 by DresdenBBQ TrailerParkThor 1
TrailerParkThor Posted November 16, 2020 Posted November 16, 2020 On 9/15/2019 at 3:28 AM, OffitMan said: Alternative sources of power is worth exploring but one issue I have with wind turbines and solar panels (that others have suggested previously) is that they are silent. With fuel generators, the risk-reward is obvious. Zombies will be drawn to the sound of the running generator but you get to power your safe house. If not thought about properly, I can easily see them being OP and a situation where players just choose to be an engineer, run to a house in the middle of nowhere, build a few wind turbines and live a completely sheltered and hazard free life because no danger comes their way. Perhaps wind turbines could be quite fragile and would require frequent repairs in stormy weather. I often think in the end of days/apocalyptic scenarios, people would revert back to old ways of doing things. Water wheels have been used since the Persian Empire. In the apocalypse, I can definitely see someone constructing a water wheel out of wood and buckets to generate some power with a dynamo, like a primitive hydroelectric dam. The drawback of water wheels is the reliance of flowing water so they could only be located next to the river. I'd like to see more sources of power providing there are pros and cons for using them and none become godlike. Well, it is an open world sandbox survival. Players are meant to have options. If one would like to play a hermit engineer way off in the woods making wind power for their potato farm, they should be allowed to. The key word is definitely balanced. I think balancing different power sources is very key to an electricity update, and I have some thoughts on how this could be incorporated fairly. Windmills would produce very little power, making them only useful for small trailers/shacks. Windspeed should affect power level, as that is already a tracked figure in the game. They shouldn't be very loud, however the sound level and radius should scale with windspeed and amount of windmills present. So maybe if you have a big base with 10 windmills, they would still attract zombies the same as one gen. This way, 3 windmills is better than 1 gen. However, they will produce less power and some days may not produce any power at all. They would need a lot of different crafted parts and lots of materials to make said parts. Occasionally, the wind turbines would need to be replaced so they aren't a permanent fix, but require less maintenance than a generator. Pair this with the carpentry/metalworking and electrical skill required to make these to begin with, and I think this is very balanced. Water wheels would be a really cool addition. These should be very easy to craft, only needing low carpentry and maybe electrical. As you said, the balance comes from needing to place these along a river tile. These would need regular repairs or else they will completely break and need to be rebuilt. I think it should make no sounds, so they should have a very low power output. Maybe barely enough to power a fridge or an oven. Perhaps water speed in the Ohio could be tracked to affect power generation. I think rain could also move the water wheel, maybe giving it some use inland during rainy season. Snow should jam the wheel up, so it wont work right in snowstorms. The Ohio could even freeze over at varying levels, and could potentially stop the wheel during winter. Still, I agree with your sentiment that these almost make gas gens obsolete. Why scav around the map to find a gen, find the magazine to use it, and then gather enough gas to power it up? This seems like a lot of work compared to chopping some trees and finding some household objects to make a windmill or water wheel. So, what if these started out as purely mechanical energy sources. Windmills and water wheels could maybe be hooked up to some grindstone or mill to make flour or other resources. To generate electricity, you have to actually dismantle a gas gen and attach the motor to these power sources. This way, you have an alternative to gas generators, but those are still the default. And generating your own power is still locked behind at least finding a generator. I think its fair to allow survivors with high enough mechanics to scrap car engines for these motors, and maybe even allowing those with high enough electrical to make some kind of rechargeable battery pack and skip over the generator part entirely.
TrailerParkThor Posted November 16, 2020 Posted November 16, 2020 On 9/15/2019 at 9:39 PM, Okamikurainya said: Petrol pumps have, on average, around 20000litres in their underground tanks IRL. The average car gas tank can hold around 45litres, if I'm not mistaken. That's a lot for one person, 444 full car gas tanks, give or take. It's impossible the tanks would run dry in singleplayer, but that's singleplayer, without any sort of simulation of other survivors having used the tanks... Multiplayer is a whole other beast, and depending on the longevity and player count of the server, I think it might be possible for the tanks to run dry. But that's only one station, and one pump... I think there are 7 petrol stations? That's 140000litres if they all have one underground tank... That's 3111 full car gas tanks with a low-ball estimate. If we want to be realistic, not all the pump stations would be at full capacity, but even so... I know the amount is currently infinite, but even if it was a finite source based on what is average, there would realistically be so much fuel on the map that even a large server would have trouble using it all. Don't get me wrong, I want BioDiesel and "Gasohol" as options, they could deteriorate your engine/generator faster and I'm always up for options. I'm just running some numbers. I assume that in this theoretical update, they would make all gas pumps finite. This would ncentivize experimenting with these new power sources, as well as creating new gameplay loops by forcing late game and MP survivors to slowly switch over to renewable energy. So let's say they actually leave them full up (which I doubt they would do), and there are roughly 3000 full tanks of gas on each map. This gives a MP server of 30 people 100 tanks each. Obviously, you aren't driving everyday and most survivors are carpooling, but this will still run out within a few years. I've heard of some longterm MP servers that have run for over a decade. Now, take into consideration generators and its not unbelievable that some servers might run out within a few years. Windmills and water wheels could be alternatives to gens that allow you to conserve gas for vehicles. Gasohol could also replace the need for gas at all over time. Like you said, this fuel should deteriorate gens and engines faster. This way, most people will use gas until it starts to run out, and only use these alternatives with specific characters or very late game. Still, this seems somewhat unnecessary for SP, as it would take decades for one person to use all the gas. However, if we assume the gas amount in each pump is customizable in sandbox settings (medium-low in Apocalypse/Survivor modes), then we can also assume that the map will maybe have 1500 tanks at most. This could make the problem even worse. When the Louisville expansion finally drops, I'm sure there will be tons of gas stations, and they could always add more towns and pumps all around the map. But even with all this, and if they ever add the Gas Tanker Mod to the vanilla game, I still can't see the map having more than 100000 liters of gas total.
TrailerParkThor Posted November 16, 2020 Posted November 16, 2020 On 9/15/2019 at 9:25 PM, MrBlue said: We on the same page ‘bout coal tho? Altering furnaces to be coal-fire generators could be an awesome addition forsure. We need mountains, hills, and mining first though. Kinda gives me some ideas
horsejack Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) I faced some similar issues and I have to say this post is really useful. Apparently I had way too many devices plugged in and at times everything in the house shut down. I had to buy VFD eventually to stabilize the frequencies and be able to continue playing and doing all other things around the house. It might be that I'm using a small miner to mine altcoins as well. Nevertheless. If you are looking for a great drive then the Powerflex 520 it's a good fit for sure. I got it at a great price for the value it has. Edited April 16, 2021 by horsejack
Fuzzy Wolfy Posted April 17, 2021 Posted April 17, 2021 When can I expect to be able to build a nuclear power plant in my backyard out of 1958 schematics?
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