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Trojan_Turps

Hunting Weapons Pondering

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The traditional Zomboid killing weapons (axe, baseball bat, knife, gun, etc.) are not great for hunting in the apocalypse.

 

Hand to hand melee weapons all lack the range because wild stuff runs away! Although the exception to this rule is domesticated animals.

 

Guns are really noisy and turn you from predator to prey rather quickly.

 

So some new weapons are going to be needed. (hopefully!?!?)

 

Javelin

Long thin shaft with spiky bit on one end.

Like a spear but able to be thrown and breaks easily if used for fighting.

 

Sling

Two bit of cord attached to a pouch,

Used to kill giants among other things.

 

 

Both quiet to use and relatively easy to make. (compared to a bow)

Both require skill to use but have been around for a while now.  So must be OK?

 

 

 

Also!

Stuff normally runs away before dying if it can. So some kind of tracking is a must!

Stuff can make a lot of noise as it dies. So using a silent weapon isn't completely safe!  

  

 

Also! Also!

The best thing to hunt with is probably a modern bow / crossbow. (But whats the fun in that?) 

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I like the idea of hunting, but the longest lasting survivalist is usually the one that traps the best, as even a skilled hunter will always find it difficult. There are many illegal methods of hunting and trapping that the player could theoretically use that would greatly increase their odds, and considering it is the zombie doomsday I do not think they will have to worry about the legal fines for using these methods.

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5 hours ago, Crazy ManMan said:

I like the idea of hunting, but the longest lasting survivalist is usually the one that traps the best, as even a skilled hunter will always find it difficult.

The more options the better.

I think different play styles, characters & situations suite different methods of collecting food.

 

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Blowpipe, Crossbow, Bow.

 

I think a simple mod can solve this problem. Just make rangeweapons without noise ^^

 

For example

This is from a mod I'm working on right now.

Spoiler

 

Item_PWSSlingshot.png.c60cb4d942d1c75dd41894905e5b7bc0.pngItem_PWSPebbles.png.11bc6044e77b34a674b0440ad39481ad.png

 

item PWSSlingshot
    {
        AimingPerkCritModifier                 =        10,
        AimingPerkHitChanceModifier         =        15,
        AimingPerkMinAngleModifier             =        0.05,
        AimingPerkRangeModifier            =        1.5,
        AimingTime                             =        5,
        AmmoType                            =        PWSPebbles,
        ClipSize                             =        1,
        ConditionLowerChanceOneIn            =        60,
        ConditionMax                        =        10,
        CriticalChance                         =        10,
        DisplayName                            =        Slingshot,
        DoorDamage                            =        2,
        HitChance                             =        50,
        Icon                                =        PWSSlingshot,
        ImpactSound                            =        null,
        IsAimedFirearm                        =        TRUE,
        KnockBackOnNoDeath                    =        TRUE,
        KnockdownMod                        =        2.5,
        MaxDamage                            =        0.8,
        MinDamage                            =        0.5,
        MinAngle                            =        0.95,
        MaxRange                            =        5,
        MinRange                            =        0.61,
        MinimumSwingTime                    =        2.5,
        MaxHitCount                            =        1,
        MultipleHitConditionAffected        =        FALSE,
        NPCSoundBoost                        =        1.5,
        ProjectileCount                        =        1,
        PushBackMod                            =        0.3,
        RecoilDelay                         =        10,
        ReloadTime                             =        8,
        RunAnim                                =        Run_Weapon2,
        Ranged                                =        TRUE,
        ShareDamage                            =        FALSE,
        SoundGain                             =        1,
        SoundRadius                            =        1,
        SoundVolume                            =        5,
        SplatBloodOnNoDeath                    =        FALSE,
        SplatNumber                            =        1,
        SplatSize                            =        1,
        SubCategory                            =        Firearm,
        SwingAnim                            =        Bat,
        SwingTime                            =        2.5,
        SwingAmountBeforeImpact                =        0,
        Type                                =        Weapon,
        ToHitModifier                        =        1.5,
        UseEndurance                        =        FALSE,
        WeaponSprite                        =        null,
        WeaponWeight                        =        0.5,
        Weight                                =        0.5,
        BreakSound                            =        PZ_ClothesRipping,
        IdleAnim                            =        Idle_Weapon2,
        PiercingBullets                        =        FALSE,
        RequiresEquippedBothHands            =        FALSE,
}

 

 

        recipe Make Slingshot
        {
           RippedSheets/RippedSheetsDirty,
           Twine=2,
           Result:PWSSlingshot,
           Time:60.0,
           Category:Survivalist,
        }

 

        recipe Make Pebbles
        {
           keep Hammer/HammerStone/Stone,
           Stone,
           Result:PWSPebbles=4,
           Time:60.0,
       Sound:Stoneworking,
           Category:Survivalist,
        }

 

 

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More options are better, but guns and crossbows/bows should be the obvious first choice when it comes to hunting. While both of them are primitive ways of hurting things, sling and javelin are both slow and give just as much opportunity for the prey to run away where a big game rifle or heavy draw crossbow could drop an Elk in a well placed shot to the heart and not give that opportunity. 

 

That said, I'm all for adding a Javelin as an ineffective but primitive (homemade) weapon, a sling is a little specific and not exactly a "tried and true" method of killing anything larger than a chipmunk.

 

I'm confident about using firearms in the deep woods where I would presumably go to hunt, since zed don't spawn out there for obvious reasons. With no hunters alive keeping the deer populations in check, hunting bigger game would be very viable. I don't imagine a slow or sprinting zombie doing much damage to deer that are already both agile and timid.

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un

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6 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

More options are better, but guns and crossbows/bows should be the obvious first choice when it comes to hunting. While both of them are primitive ways of hurting things, sling and javelin are both slow and give just as much opportunity for the prey to run away where a big game rifle or heavy draw crossbow could drop an Elk in a well placed shot to the heart and not give that opportunity. 

 

That said, I'm all for adding a Javelin as an ineffective but primitive (homemade) weapon, a sling is a little specific and not exactly a "tried and true" method of killing anything larger than a chipmunk.

 

I'm confident about using firearms in the deep woods where I would presumably go to hunt, since zed don't spawn out there for obvious reasons. With no hunters alive keeping the deer populations in check, hunting bigger game would be very viable. I don't imagine a slow or sprinting zombie doing much damage to deer that are already both agile and timid.

 

There would not be hunters, but there would be more hungry people around depending on those deer, and potentially diseases spreading unchecked without the DNR around anymore. At first population would likely drop significantly and it could take time for them to repopulate.

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4 hours ago, Crazy ManMan said:

There would not be hunters, but there would be more hungry people around depending on those deer, and potentially diseases spreading unchecked without the DNR around anymore. At first population would likely drop significantly and it could take time for them to repopulate.

On the contrary, survivors wouldn't really turn to hunting until their pantries and what not begin to turn dry, and that means learning to both shoot and hunt if they haven't already (good luck tailing deer if you can't tell it's tracks from your neighborhood cats) that's still remembering the fact that the hard majority of citizens (including hunters) have either died or turned into zombies.

 

There is no real scenario where the deer population wouldn't immediately grow until the usual fluctuations of predator/prey populations intervene, regardless of zombie intervention. I'm familiar in the rifle culture of my mountain/farm town I grew up in and I know enough to tell you without google that hunters play an important role in keeping populations stable, and a lot of times that means shooting a doe with an institution's incentive to do so.  I'm not sure what you meant about disease control since not having the DNR is pretty nonconsequential for this scenario considering that wildlife have a tendency to thrive even without this kind of intervention. Deer can live without it, and certainly, aren't going to go extinct without it (even though it certainly helps in population management). So, nothing you said would really cause them to drop off as much as it would increase. The deer population would rise significantly at first. If you have a different point I'm not considering, I'm all ears. Keep in mind that deer are timid creatures that are very agile, and melee combat would be a useless endeavor, so I don't believe a zombie force meandering around the woods is going to do much damage.

 

I've found a useful article to back my claims here: http://extension.illinois.edu/deer/damage.cfm?SubCat=8890

 

Ask around any hunting forum or even your local community (if applicable) if you want more information, they'll probably tell you the same thing to some degree. I can't speak for Kentucky, though a google skim doesn't contradict anything I've said.

 

Hope this helps. Have a good day!

 

 

 

Edited by Kim Jong Un

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15 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

sling is a little specific and not exactly a "tried and true" method of killing anything larger than a chipmunk.

Slings have been widely used throughout history for hunting and fighting. I'm NOT talking about a slingshot / hand catapult etc.

 

Just think of a stone the size of your fist hitting a deer in the head at very high speed. It's going to do some serious damage!

 

I think the best things about the sling is that it is relatively portable and has an endless supply of ammo / stones / projectiles.

 

If you're walking in the woods going from A to B and you seen a rabbit. Have a shot at it with the sling. You will probably miss but it doesn't matter. You haven't made any noise or wasted any bullets or arrows. 

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In history there are Greek and Roman Elite Troops who use Slings in war.

Quote

Ancient peoples used the sling in combat—armies included both specialist slingers and regular soldiers equipped with slings. As a weapon, the sling had several advantages; a sling bullet lobbed in a high trajectory can achieve ranges in excess of 400 metres (1,300 ft).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_(weapon)

 

You can kill a Man with a Sling why not something like a Deer?

Sure you need to train but when you have some experiance with a Sling its a longe range and deadly weapon. Easy to Build and with nearly infinite Ammo.

 

I think weapons like a Blowpipe ore a Boomerang are good for hunting small Animals Item_BlowpipeWood.png.4c3eb0e98e85409aef67820c581daf18.pngItem_BlowpipeArrow.png.da1445d1a2ce6c29477e4d599b21ec5f.pngItem_Bumerang.png.7648504913fd5cb5ceae8ae83ba52e27.png

Slings for medium and everything above good for larger Animals.

For Javelins you can use a Atlatl as base Weapon and the Javelins as Ammo Item_Atlatl.png.ae9db82d462af1d820829398d91410ae.pngItem_JavelinStone.png.913f1380f0c3c586753e36fe25574ecc.pngItem_JavelinSteel.png.d7c0c5c1946291c4afcfff07b4782d1f.png

Maybe you find one of this Sportjavelins Item_JavelinSportSteel.png.6978e0eaf6d1c2bd3fe5bc772a7a478f.png

 

In addition to this a Bola to catch Animals allive Item_Bola.png.8d6ab11d4ad52a8360bd70381c0f1b0c.png

All you need is some code to get back the Javelins and Darts when you kill an Animal. But i think Hydrocraft Mod already has such a function for Bows and Crossbows

There is a looonge range of primitive hunting Weapons with some range and every native Tribe have its own methods for hunting with longe range primitve Weapons.

Like i say all you need is knowledge about the Weapon and practice when you want to use them.

 

In indonesia some People hunt with a selfmade Airrifle make from a Bicyclepump, Pipe, old Bottle, some Rubberhose and a Valve. They shoot with Ballbearing Balls and kill small Animals in this way.

 

All this Weapons are nearly without any noise and cann kill an Animal. And all theese Weapons are easy to made for thoose who know how.

Edited by Cyrrent Eiledoll

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10 hours ago, Trojan_Turps said:

Slings have been widely used throughout history for hunting and fighting. I'm NOT talking about a slingshot / hand catapult etc.

 

Just think of a stone the size of your fist hitting a deer in the head at very high speed. It's going to do some serious damage!

 

I think the best things about the sling is that it is relatively portable and has an endless supply of ammo / stones / projectiles.

 

If you're walking in the woods going from A to B and you seen a rabbit. Have a shot at it with the sling. You will probably miss but it doesn't matter. You haven't made any noise or wasted any bullets or arrows. 

 

My bad, as I read your post and thought slingshot. But a sling would probably be less effective for big game (not small game, which it would be effective for). I'm not familiar with them myself, but yeah, I could see killing a rabbit with that. But big game? Sure, you could eventually kill something, but it would require a lot of skill to make that kind of shot and if it doesn't concuss them it certainly wouldn't kill them through their tougher hide. But yeah, you are right about it for small game. If it works, it works. 

Edited by Kim Jong Un
fixed a word

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Hmm Big Game = more LP = more Shots with Sling = more chance to escape ^^

with practice more Chance of critical hits with sling = more dmg = less chance to escape.

 

Dont konw if this is possible but it sounds like a good method to simulate this.

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1 hour ago, Kim Jong Un said:

But big game? Sure, you could eventually kill something, but it would require a lot of skill to make that kind of shot and if it doesn't concuss them it certainly wouldn't kill them through their tougher hide.

I have no experience hunting with a sling. But I agree that killing a deer would be hard. You would probably need to get a good clean head hit. To be honest I don't know?!?

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I dont know but ...

 

Quote

Roman sling bullets used against Scottish tribes 2,000 years ago were as deadly as a .44 Magnum ...

... The sling bullets or stones could reach speeds of up to 100 mph (160 km/h)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4541318/Roman-sling-bullets-deadly-44-Magnum.html

A Stone with 100 mph against the Head of a Deer ... :?

 

Sure you need much practice to hit a deer with a stone but if you hit its definitly deadly.

I dont know how much practice you need but i think a few days training is enough to learn how to use a Sling. Hmm hunting Deers with Trebuchets could be Funny ^^

Whats about poison Darts for Blowpipes. Making Poison, dip the Dart and hunt some smaler Animals. The Poison works over Time so you must follow the fleeing Animal or you lost it.

 

 

Edited by Cyrrent Eiledoll

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You're oversimplifying it as if you could hit a deer in the head at 100mph (quite the feat) with a sling just with some practice and a dream. It's not an effective way to kill big game regardless of how good you get at it. Especially if the deer is moving, or any considerable distance away from you (and the getting close to one without it being aware of you with any of it's viable senses - especially smell - is challenge enough). 

 

Not to mention the fact that if you stood as close as the man in that video, the winding up of you starting to swing that for momentum will scare it away instantly.

 

And there's a fairly obvious reason hunters don't use poisons to kill the animals that they eat. Regardless of what you hear or read about tradition, that poison will be in the meat. There have been cases where people were charged with killing protected animals because those animals died eating the flesh of other creatures that they poisoned. It's not recommended.

 

As said above, slings are useful for other reasons. Just not hunting deer. Or much else that has evolved and adapted to perceiving and outrunning fast game. The first obstacle is getting close to one. If it isn't socialized to humans (as most surviving deer in this scenario would definitely not be) this often involves masking your own scent and camouflage, and often knowledge that people don't just suddenly pick up. If you are trying to be practical, there are already much better ways to hunt that don't need to be reinvented.

 

Edit:

I went on a slinging forum and found this exact question, and they disagree as well. At most, some claim to kill small game, but inconsistently. Keep in mind that they are talking about small game.

 

Quote

Probably most of us sling with enough power to kill small game.  The problem is achieving the level of proficiency necessary to insure a good, clean kill.  Very few of us if any have the necessary skill to hit a squirrel sized target with any sort of consistency, let alone hit one with a clean shot.  I wouldn't want to go off maiming animals so I don't hunt with my sling.  Plus it's not legal in my state, and might not be anywhere in the U.S.  I've looked into what it would take in my state, New Jersey, to get the sling approved as a hunting weapon, and it just aint happenin'.   I would like to, some day, be good enough to hunt with a sling just in case I ever have to, but I have a long way to go.  I hate to throw a wet blanket on this.  The idea of hunting with a sling is exciting but the realities are another matterhttp://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1270605033

 

Sorry. It's a fun idea, but for hunting deer, it just doesn't sound like this is going to work. There are other reasons for slings though.

Edited by Kim Jong Un

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Ok this answers many questions.

And yes i oversimplyfie this a little bit but i see this from the perspective of a player and in this case its possible that i have bend the reality a little bit to get a solution for this problem.

I think we must wait what the game will bring to see if a sling make any sense for hunting an Animal. I dont believe that Animals who can smell you come to the Game (this where very cool but i dont believe this) and from this point of view i ask myself how to make it possible to bring such items like a Sling or a Blowpipe (or anything like this) to the Game without beeing to unrealistic.  

 

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1 hour ago, Kim Jong Un said:

 

Sorry. It's a fun idea, but for hunting deer, it just doesn't sound like this is going to work. There are other reasons for slings though.

After reading all of the posts on that link it appears they all have different opinions. I don't feel like it is evidence of slings being good or bad for hunting.

 

I think the problem is that people just don't do a lot of hunting with slings. 

 

In modern times people use slings for fun because we have guns and modern bows for hunting.

 

Edited by Trojan_Turps

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10 hours ago, Trojan_Turps said:

After reading all of the posts on that link it appears they all have different opinions. I don't feel like it is evidence of slings being good or bad for hunting.

 

I think the problem is that people just don't do a lot of hunting with slings. 

 

In modern times people use slings for fun because we have guns and modern bows for hunting.

 

Having gone through all of the side links (there is a separate conversation linked through that one where a similar discourse occurred), what's easy to read from that is that using a sling to hit an animal is both inconsistent, inaccurate, and often times the creature did not go down in one hit (because not everyone gets "100mph" for every single shot, that's like saying the top speed of a sports car is where you'll drive it at all the time).  "Smacks the squirrel in the butt, it goes flying off SPINNING! it look hillarious, just imagine a squirrel, all limbs spread, spinning like a helicopter blade Shocked. After that it got up and ran back up the tree" http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1270605033/0

 

Another problem I hadn't considered, but encountered through the other conversation about attempts at sling hunting, is that the slower moving rocks often make sounds as they whistle through the air, and plenty of alert animals (rabbits, etc) can hear the stone coming and move out of the way.

 

The thing is, that slinging forum was the best case scenario for hunting with a sling, since it is so obscure, impractical and requires a specialized knowledge and skill that is rare in the 21st century. Note the OP:

 

Quote

Hey, I have scoured the entire info for any videos of sling hunting and can't find a thing. 

 

So, apart from the reasons I have brought up above, it's pretty damning that the majority of people on the thread both thought they weren't accurate enough, and one thing that the forum responses make clear is that the prey often don't go down in one shot and need to be finished off. The most hopeful responses you could glean from that were hypothetical anyways, which is totally fine, but that leads me to the next thing. 

 

RE: "I think the problem is that people don't do a lot of hunting with slings"

 

Uh huh. That's because slings aren't very practical for hunting, especially with better alternatives that aren't guns. And there are better ways for doing it. The only reason why slinging is still around is for primarily recreation, and it's not a common skill. So the problem isn't that people just choose not to use a sling to hunt when it is a practical way to hunt. It's a problem because there are better ways to hunt that don't require such a specific set of skills that can produce better results. For example, spears are both a simpler concept for somebody to learn to use and can catch you more food than a sling would any day of the week.

 

~~

 

So, apart from that recreational slinging thread, there's a lot of points to look at here. Before this thread I had never even considered the idea beyond joking about how ridiculous it would be. Big game is off the table. You can kill small game, but it's inconsistent and requires a ton of skill to be remotely reliable. Now, the other issue still is that this is basically a recreation of the throwing knives dilemma, except the problem about having that knowledge that makes the weapon lethal is multiplied.

 

For gameplay, I think it's important for PZ developers to try to think of stuff that people would think to do in the apocalypse, like set up generators, learn to garden, sharpen sticks, and form tools out of stuff you could find in the woods, etc. So, you said yourself that you have no experience on this, and this thread has been one massive hypothetical discussion. So why would this be anyone's go-to for getting food in the apocalypse? Not a lot of people have the knowledge to use a sling in a way that is lethal, and the amount of skill needed to hit small, agile targets make it extremely unreliable. This discussion so far (which I have learned a lot from with the research I've done, so thank you by the way) brings me back to my original point: The sling is a little specific.

 

Now, I'm not saying don't add the sling because it's sub-optimal for the use you have suggested. There are other uses for a sling, and it could be a niche yet entertaining way to kill zombies. Just not accurate enough for small targets, and not fast enough (or accurate enough) for agile big targets. I just don't think the set of knowledge is common enough or practical enough to allow this to become a primary method of hunting in PZ.

 

Thanks for listening! Have a great rest of your day :)

Edited by Kim Jong Un

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7 hours ago, Kim Jong Un said:

Now, I'm not saying don't add the sling because it's sub-optimal for the use you have suggested. There are other uses for a sling, and it could be a niche yet entertaining way to kill zombies.

Other uses-

 

Thinning down groups of zombies.

A group of 5 to 10 zombies is a nice big target. Slings have a very long range so you could pick away at a group from a safe distance.

 

Scaring off wolves.

Used to keep hungry wildlife away without needing to hit or kill it.

 

Noise distraction.

Used to smash windows and hit doors, cars, walls, etc. To create noise that will attract zombies. 

 

After 6 - 12 months of daily sling use doing the above things. I imagine hunting would become a more realistic option?

 

 

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On 2/14/2019 at 10:01 PM, Kim Jong Un said:

On the contrary, survivors wouldn't really turn to hunting until their pantries and what not begin to turn dry, and that means learning to both shoot and hunt if they haven't already (good luck tailing deer if you can't tell it's tracks from your neighborhood cats) that's still remembering the fact that the hard majority of citizens (including hunters) have either died or turned into zombies.

 

There is no real scenario where the deer population wouldn't immediately grow until the usual fluctuations of predator/prey populations intervene, regardless of zombie intervention. I'm familiar in the rifle culture of my mountain/farm town I grew up in and I know enough to tell you without google that hunters play an important role in keeping populations stable, and a lot of times that means shooting a doe with an institution's incentive to do so.  I'm not sure what you meant about disease control since not having the DNR is pretty nonconsequential for this scenario considering that wildlife have a tendency to thrive even without this kind of intervention. Deer can live without it, and certainly, aren't going to go extinct without it (even though it certainly helps in population management). So, nothing you said would really cause them to drop off as much as it would increase. The deer population would rise significantly at first. If you have a different point I'm not considering, I'm all ears. Keep in mind that deer are timid creatures that are very agile, and melee combat would be a useless endeavor, so I don't believe a zombie force meandering around the woods is going to do much damage.

 

I've found a useful article to back my claims here: http://extension.illinois.edu/deer/damage.cfm?SubCat=8890

 

Ask around any hunting forum or even your local community (if applicable) if you want more information, they'll probably tell you the same thing to some degree. I can't speak for Kentucky, though a google skim doesn't contradict anything I've said.

 

Hope this helps. Have a good day!

 

 

 

Sorry for the delay.

You make some good points. What I mean is as population grows, diseases spread more readily and even if those diseases do not kill the deer they do make them inedible, and an untrained person might now know the difference and there would be no DNR to warn anybody or try to contain the spread (and hunting activities can make them spread faster in some cases, from what I have heard). Hunters will also be allowed to use illegal methods to hunt, and any would be survivors would not know how to preserve meat and would waste an awful lot. Additionally one plays as the average Joe in Project Zomboid, meaning they would be chasing all the same dear everybody else is chasing, and not really have better odds than them so what does get caught probably would not be by your character unless they got lucky. I suppose the fact that most people are already dead would help, but at first the radios do mention rioting in the streets/etc and at times of civil unrest in the past poaching and street animal coming up missing is not highly uncommon. I imagine zombies chasing deer around would stress them out, increase odds of disease, and drive them away from populated areas even more. In the long run the deer population would definitely go way up, to the point of environmental damage, but I think in the immediate start of the doomsday the population would go down until they could start reproducing more.

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A funny thought.

 

Today I had to remember that all over the globe many rioters use slings as a weapon in a revolt.
I mean just watch videos from  any greater Riot in the World. Of course the slings are not used for hunting at the moment, the people who use these slings are very well trained in handling them and it would be very obvious if one of these rioters with long experience would also hunt with them during a Zombieapocalypse.

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