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Frustration and animations


cool daddy shark

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I really like this game, let me put emphasis on that actually. I love this game. I've played PZ for about 3 years now and it has grown on me. I remember when vehicles came out. I remember seeing them first in a Mondoid and was absolutely shocked. They were an absolute goddamn mess. Anyone who alpha tested them remembers just how rough out of the furnace they were. I remember driving around at 10-17 fps at very low zombie counts with a vehicle that was indestructible with no sound and just having a smile on my face. I was excited that I was experiencing something very new in PZ. It took time to get them up and running but it got done and now I am still kind of shocked how smooth and refined the overall driving experience is. We really were kind of all in it together, it was neat. I could see what myself and others were doing to make the game better than it already was. We were knee deep in it. I know I am not alone in this feeling. This is a small but supportive and tightly knit community that celebrates every little win we get. I don't feel much of that anymore. If anything I feel fatigue from PZ and I am under the impression this is common.

 

There's been a sizable group of people that have just given up on the game and I've started to understand why a little better. There's a sizable gap between meaningful content that is released and the flow of information on certain topics which I sometimes can understand. Formal discussion about NPC's has ceased to exist because the sheer amount of hate that was thrown about. Call me crazy, but the more I read about animations news the more and more it sometimes feels like its slipping away. Sure, there's signs of life to be seen- but sometimes it feels like even this is kind of slowly sliding into the ether. I am sure this isn't the case but the feeling sure is there. Its frustrating and I am sure you guys have deduced that from how impatient people have gotten. There was a discussion about animations following the same formula as vehicles did, but that was some time ago and since then there's just been a series of platitudes that just eliminate any sense of optimism. The road just gets longer and longer with no end in sight. I know animations are being worked on slavishly. We want them, we understand there was some level of miscommunication in the perception of when the update was announced and how much left there was left to do with it but has there been any consideration that maybe we want to play a broken mess and be there as it progresses rather than sit and watch for another year or two? I appreciate all you guys do, this was just me getting it off my chest.

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I think most people feel the burn of waiting for so long and patience runs out eventually. Maybe once the weather update is out, we'll get a test branch separate from IWBUMS like we did for the weather update, to be able to test a much earlier buggy release? I hope.

 

Without a doubt, the devs understand how much people want them, to be able to test them like we did with vehicles. Hell, I absolutely remember when vehicles first released, it was awful, unplayable and I felt like "man, maybe they've reached a limit with the engine... there's no way this will ever run smoothly" and now they're fully released with a few months and they're so smooth. I took a break and came back incredibly impressed with how much effort had been made.

 

But think of that, the effort that has been made, look at the version history of PZ, all the tiny details/smaller features added over the years which made the game all of what it is right now. It's crazy to think of all those details not being in the game, right? No camping, no farming, no fishing, no nutrition, no updated textures, no shaders, no generators. You get the idea.

 

It took a long time for a major feature to arrive in the game. It, to me, feels like we're on a very close road to the end and trust me I think I know how much the devs (especially Lemmy, Mash, Binky) feel burnout from working on a game for so long but they've done it and seemingly are determined to do so until it's done. Even if it causes the worst people who have no form of understanding at all (that one Steam thread) to attack them for being slow. Lemmy's made some great comments on Reddit about the development actually.

 

Half of this rant is gibberish, honestly, I don't know the point I'm trying to make.

 

A quick note about the NPCs discussion ceasing to exist: Honestly, it's really because we're worn out of talking about them. On Steam, most of it is hate towards the slow development, of which criticism is fine, everyone knows they're slow because of bad early programming languages and engine choices. I've dialed back my hype for NPCs just in case. They're supposed to be just THE single biggest feature ever. How much of that is possible? Crazy bandits late game, smart AI that doesn't die the second they walk outside, dynamic stories, making you actually care about your group? If the survivors mod is anything to go by, it'll be the single most disappointing thing since No Man's Sky, for me at least. The mod is nowhere close to what the devs have promised and that's scary considering there's a decent amount of effort put into it. Yet even with Super Survivors, it's still micromanaging everything. That's why animations have bumped up my list because they're possible. We haven't seen anything from NPCs since 2014 so who actually knows but the devs.

All rants end up in the same place: We don't know until we play them ourselves so discussions are just going in circles sadly.

 

I'm just curious about a few things, is that if vehicles released for testing in that bad of a state, how bad are animations' performance right now? Or is it that? Is it because there are so many major bugs they know about, testers would report redundant bug reports? Do they want shit tons of animations for testing? They said no before that not all animations will make it into testing. I know we get the usual state systems and other small updates in Thursdoids, but I'd really love an actual reason as to why they feel it isn't ready when vehicles made me feel like the game's development was over with their initial test release.

 

Absolutely no hate or pressure to put on the devs, the game has far exceeded my expectations for (genuinely) my dream game since I can't count times in 2009-2010 I was looking for a game like this.

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I've paid ALOT more money for mainstream games that ultimately sucked in the end due to game breaking bugs, or just being so disappointing to the point where it wasn't worth my time to finish the game...

 

This game has so many more features and depth than any game I've ever played, and I see the potential (as do all the die hard fans) I appreciate the no-compromise attitude, because that is what keeps PZ from becoming packaged up as some half-assed POS game on the Best Buy shelf...

 

I think it's hilarious that it's the most realistic (playing) game, yet due to the isometric view.... looks so 90's

I've actually wanted this trade off for so long, but it's the un-popular thing to do.... make a game that doesn't trade depth in gameplay in favor of visual "wow"....  There are so many games that look amazing, but suck.

 

I just wanted a game that had all the features I ever wanted, and is expandable... and always keep that priority above the visual "packaging" of the game... which is point most game makers call it done...  They give you one or two new features, wrap it up in the next highest resolution standard requiring you to run out and buy the latest PHKWOW-9000 graphics card just to play it, and slap on the Price tag $69.99 !!!!

 

That said.... I LOVE the direction TIS is going.... but yeah, I also wish they had 500% more resources to kick into a higher gear....

 

 

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10 hours ago, MadDan2013 said:

I'm just curious about a few things, is that if vehicles released for testing in that bad of a state, how bad are animations' performance right now? Or is it that? Is it because they're so many major bugs they know about, testers would report redundant bug reports? Do they want shit tons of animations for testing? They said no before that not all animations will make it into testing. I know we get the usual state systems and other small updates in Thursdoids, but I'd really love an actual reason as to why they feel it isn't ready when vehicles made me feel like the game's development was over with their initial test release.

 

Absolutely no hate or pressure to put on the devs, the game has far exceeded my expectations for (genuinely) my dream game since I can't count times in 2009-2010 I was looking for a game like this.

This echoes and articulates everything I want. I want some clarification. I know we are getting a solid product in the end, we always have from TIS and that's what has earned my trust from them. They ALWAYS deliver the goods in ways I at first doubted then was absolutely proven so wrong about.

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6 hours ago, sharkstertheshark said:

I know we are getting a solid product in the end, we always have from TIS and that's what has earned my trust from them.

 

How many products did they release in the last 5 years? As far as I am aware, there is only Zomboid... and it's still in "Early Access" :>

 

Development simply takes too long. To me this seems like an endless project that will run until nobody is buying it anymore. No idea if there will ever be NPCs or if we're seeing animations till the end of this or next year. At the same time, the game gets more and more tedious with added stuff like washing dirty clothes, etc. At some point someone has to think about ways to reduce this tediousness.

 

Meh, all in all I don't really want to think about it anymore. I'm always checking the weekly blog for something interesting, but that's it then for now.

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1 hour ago, Lexx2k said:

To me this seems like an endless project that will run until nobody is buying it anymore.

 

That's exactly what I want for PZ to be. I'd love for this to be a game that is continually worked on and evolved, and is never 'done'. .

E.G is right. TIS Have shown, that for pretty much any feature they've added recently, it can be turned off. From 'recent' updates - Nutrition and Vehicles prove this. 

 

Yes, development is taking a long time. The error here is similar to what it is in Mount and Blade Bannerlord. TIS(like paradox) probably showed too many cards too early, and now everyone wants them to deliver on those cards before they are done. 

 

The development time does not frustrate me. When you're a developer yourself, you recognise and appreciate the time and effort that actually goes into these things.

What really frustrates me is the impatience of the community.

 

Animations are done when TIS says they are done.  We know they are working on them.

 

I know it's frustrating seeing something you want and knowing you don't have it yet,

Just please, have a little respect and patience. 

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3 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

I don't know, maybe you could use the sandbox settings to disable the things you don't like.

I don't know, maybe I like the idea, but not the tediousness behind it.

 

2 hours ago, Bejasc said:

When you're a developer yourself, you recognise and appreciate the time and effort that actually goes into these things.

What really frustrates me is the impatience of the community.

As a matter of fact, I am a developer myself. And it's 5 years since Zomboid arrived in Early Access. The game made great progress since then, nobody is denying that. Doesn't change the fact that the development time for certain things are crazy long. But whatever, I don't really care at this point, just felt the need to chime in with OP, that's all.

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On 8/22/2018 at 6:16 AM, MadDan2013 said:

I think most people feel the burn of waiting for so long and patience runs out eventually. Maybe once the weather update is out, we'll get a test branch separate from IWBUMS like we did for the weather update, to be able to test a much earlier buggy release? I hope.

 

I was hoping and praying this was going to be the case when the vehicles reached IWBUMS, but then i saw screenshots of the early Weather system and the only thing i was thinking was "That is going to take the IWBUMS stage after the vehicles are in stable, isn't? " And here we are just arriving at the IWBUMS Weather system and no animations in sight.

 

I just learn that you need let go of things, "a watched pot of water never boils" is what is what i think off everytime i read a Thursdoid, no matter how much you scream at the clouds they wont move faster than they already are.

 

I predict that the animations will come around mid November or start of December, it hurts but its just the way it is, i just want to see this game succeed.

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2 hours ago, Blasted_Taco said:

I predict that the animations will come around mid November or start of December, it hurts but its just the way it is, i just want to see this game succeed.

Nah its probably going to be in 2019 TIS usually release 2 builds per year we already got vehicles then weather build and weather build just get release on iwbums so its gonna take months before it gets to stable probably before 2019 mid year then 1-3 mo ths before the build starts again so probably late 2019

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3 hours ago, Blasted_Taco said:

I predict that the animations will come around mid November or start of December, it hurts but its just the way it is, i just want to see this game succeed.

I was more imagining May 2019. Around when vehicles came out this year. If it's out (even for testing) before the end of this year I'd be fairly surprised.

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