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Is PZ Ever going to get finished?


DizzyCrash

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On 8.03.2018 at 8:19 PM, DizzyCrash said:

I just remember the old days with the steller little tutorial with your wife and  having to fight off the gunman from shooting her, and just being able to see how amazing this was going to get, thinking they would just start adding things and improving on it.. but instead focus seemed to shift to changing the artstyle, expanding the world to a less interesting more sparse and empty one   ( which woulda been one of the last things id expect to add only after the other more important features were in place ) 
And than just meandering around with that for like 8 years.

I do not code, but if the devs would like to set pre-Muldraugh code free then the music of the unachievable features could play ;) Project Zomboid Unleashed!

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The "stellar" tutorial was a few scripted events with a few sprites that had basic routines and that's it. There was no AI, the characters didn't make decisions nor deducted anything. You have way overvalued what the NPCs had in there.

First major change was the change from sprite-based textures to 3D models. The devs realized that if you wanted to add in an items, you needed to add multiple sprites for every single animation. You wanted to add a shirt? You gotta draw every single shirt piece in all the frames. It was madness, so they switched over. They need to do it once more because guess what? Development isn't easy and things pop up. The animation system is being worked on and has had multiple videos on it.

The map was another thing. We knew it was going to be big, just not this big and that is a good thing. It was surely a lot emptier before but with cars the world is a lot smaller when a one-day trip is easily achievable now and the devs saw that coming.

Lastly is NPC AI. They aren't planning your run-of-the-mill NPCs from a AA studio. These NPCs aren't going to be like Fallout 4 settlement NPCs with small amounts of commands and little to no real decision making skills. No, these NPCs are going to be able to make decisions to actually survive and thrive in the apocalypse. They will interact with each other and they will make the world feel alive. You won't just click on them and they do "Oh Hi! Welcome to ___" or spout out 20 different lines before repeating.

These NPCs are going to be just as valuable as anything else and you will depend on them just as much as they depend on you. That unfortunately takes time and learning.

This game, despite all it's setbacks, is doing pretty well.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am one of those people waiting for NPC's.

 

I am also looking forward to when they might have more time to do things like make Custom Scenarios/Challenge maps possible for map makers (Currently it would require modding which not all map makers have, like myself).

 

You said a lot about NPC's, which I think might not help matters. Everyone puts NPC's on a pedestal.

People keep saying it's taking forever because they want to get it right and not to rush it. Okay cool.

 

But from what I know from my experience following PZ over the years, Map Making and chats with people like Nolan - It's not an easy task.

 

I think NPC's will be great. But I also think the reason why they are so coveted in regards to development updates are because they are the one thing they really can't screw up and they know that people's expectations are high.

 

For years we've had updates about many upcoming features or at least what's going on in the background - even if it's without an ETA (which is fine!). 

 

But you'll notice there is ZERO talk about NPC's. I think if we lower our expectations of NPC's it would really reduce the stress of the dev team. Hell, they might be more open to even mention whether or not they've even started working on it at all recently.

 

I think if Vehicles took this long and NPC's are dependent on stuff like Animations and other updates - they probably haven't made much headway in regards to NPC development yet. So I've restrained myself over the past couple years in even talking about it.

 

I think NPC's will be good, but not like what you expect.

I think NPC's need Animations done before they even start developing it (doubt they have done much lately).

I think NPC's are easily 2 years away.

I think NPC's will create a lot of overhead performance wise that will create more issues than anyone assumes.

 

It's a touchy subject for good reason. But I'd really like to give the devs more breathing rooms and space to hopefully come to us and say hey "No new teases but yes we are doing what we can to facilitate NPC development for when Animations complete.  We're constantly taking into account how zombies, vehicles and even Nolan's survivors mod functions to look at future performance hurdles. We'd like to release more information but we don't want to tease the community. Though we can say that NPC capabilities will be A,B,C and beyond without saying more to not commit or limit ourselves to what we can do."

 

Now that would be something I'd love to read once in awhile or hear more about.

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1 hour ago, Capt_Paradox said:

"No new teases but yes we are doing what we can to facilitate NPC development for when Animations complete.  We're constantly taking into account how zombies, vehicles and even Nolan's survivors mod functions to look at future performance hurdles. We'd like to release more information but we don't want to tease the community. Though we can say that NPC capabilities will be A,B,C and beyond without saying more to not commit or limit ourselves to what we can do."



It seems to me that Devs and moderators have such answers to comunity there was some years, but over years I'm sorry that they have been frustated by some players anger and answers have become increasingly short, aggressive or withering sometimes towards people who aren't  a "model of kindness". nowadays some people who just want to express their frustration (with a certain anger, which is understandable), expectations or bugs are a little too much to send packing, if : they don't do all the job they should do (as developers was charged), they don't be a model of kindness (as developers was charged), they try but do mistake/wrong (as developers undergo on some update delay), etc...
As developers was charged ! an eye for an eye, teeth for teeth.
taking on oneself is part of the professionalism when encounter frustated customer. (I was 4 years delivery man of industrial meal to elderly person, so I know perfectly continous cristicism and dissatisfaction of a product), to remain courteous and kind is a quality that seems to be lost little by little in the frustration of the players disgrace.
it seems to me that is the main reason of departure of non modders old active players from forum (and game), those so many peoples I saw post over 3 years past 2 years. (didn't watching forum before that, I was only a simple player).

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People depart from the forum because they have lives. It's a very strange and unique thing for people to hang around for 3 to 8 years for just one video game.

 

It was the same thing with Subspace Continuum (and the Fallout 1 /Fallout 2 communities, and abandoneware scenes)- those that remained blamed anyone in power for the slow departure of its members. Maybe there was an element of truth to it but, what does anyone expect when we change from teenagers to adults with jobs, children, and terminal illness in our families and among our friends (or ourselves)? . They get old. They get bored. They move on. There's nothing anyone can do about it, aside from encourage new members and hope that the game continues to grow. No amount of false courtesy or enforced "professionalism" and telling people only what they want to hear, will change this simple fact of life. It is asking a lot of anyone to stick around for months let alone years on one thing, there's no way to coerce people to do that.

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Hah EG you know I have had my share of moments in the past being frustrated at certain issues regarding this game. 

 

Some of which could have been handled better on my part, some of which could have been handled better on TIS's part.

 

Though now days I like to think my relationship with you and others has evolved to a far more pleasant relationship. One of of patience and understanding. So I understand both sides.

 

It for both is equally frustrating. 

 

Though I do think people's departures sometimes are related to the passage of time. For me and a few others I know it's more of just being worn out, waiting for key features or in the case of MP a lack of players.(Yes seasonal blah blah yahta yahta yahta)

 

So for now I have reverted to being a lurker in the background just wondering if I should back up the last build before vehicles hit so I have something to play on my toaster. I've yet to switch to Vehicle branch but I can only assume with the game getting more demanding it will probably make it unplayable till I get a new computer (which won't be soon).

 

All in all I'm not disappointed or upset with the progress. It's more of a "You should say I love you more often" type of situation in regards to the status of things like NPC's.

 

Good Work on the other stuff. Hope to hear I love you soon!

Edited by Capt_Paradox
wrong word errr err
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26 minutes ago, Capt_Paradox said:

Hah EG you know I have had my share of moments in the past being frustrated at certain issues regarding this game. 

 

Some of which could have been handled better on my part, some of which could have been handled better on TIS's part.

 

Though now days I like to think my relationship with you and others has evolved to a far more pleasant relationship. One of of patience and understanding. So I understand both sides.

 

It for both is equally frustrating. 

 

Though I do think people's departures sometimes are related to the passage of time. For me and a few others I know it's more of just being worn out, waiting for key features or in the case of MP a lack of players.(Yes seasonal blah blah yahta yahta yahta)

 

So for now I have reverted to being a lurker in the background just wondering if I should back up the last build before vehicles hit so I have something to play on my toaster. I've yet to switch to Vehicle branch but I can only assume with the game getting more demanding it will probably make it unplayable till I get a new computer (which won't be soon).

 

All in all I'm not disappointed or upset with the progress. It's more of a "You should say I love you more often" type of situation in regards to the status of things like NPC's.

 

Good Work on the other stuff. Hope to hear I love you soon!

Iirc vehicles will be optional so in theory you'll be able play without them been spawned but also benefit from the overall optimisations that's been added.

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1 hour ago, Capt_Paradox said:

Though I do think people's departures sometimes are related to the passage of time. For me and a few others I know it's more of just being worn out, waiting for key features or in the case of MP a lack of players.(Yes seasonal blah blah yahta yahta yahta)

That really is my point, though: it's the inevitable passage of time. It wears us all down. 


Also I don't think it's just seasonal when it comes to MP, now. Player numbers were really good from Oct - Jan and the game brought in a ton of new people, but barely anyone was on the public MP side of things. Maybe it's just a consequence of taking down the official servers, but I don't know. We'll see what the spring brings.

 

Whether the vehicle build will work or not (even with vehicles off) is questionable. The latest build uses more VRAM/RAM, for example. Though advanced things like FBOs for the GUI can be disabled in the next build (not the current vehicle one), I don't know if it'll help.

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Well I think the biggest thing going for this game is that you can mod it. I think this game would be long dead if it did not have modders modding it. Modding was one of the biggest factors that got me to play this game.

 

The second thing going for the game is the fact there is multiplayer. Without servers keeping things interesting I think the game would have had a much shorter life.

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2 hours ago, Hydromancerx said:

Well I think the biggest thing going for this game is that you can mod it. I think this game would be long dead if it did not have modders modding it. Modding was one of the biggest factors that got me to play this game.


Imagine where Bethesda games would be right now without modding.

At the exact same place most big games are. Irrelevant, Dead and long forgotten by everyone who played it for long enough.

How long does it take to beat Thief: Dark Project? I can do it in about 6-7h on Expert. And yet I remember playing that game for hundreds of hours back in the day, why? Fan Missions, dozens of them. Same for Thief 2.

Why is the original DooM still alive? Modding. Hell the only reason some games exist is Modding, Counter Strike, Killing Floor... Hell, the new Doom game is based on Brutal Doom mod for the original Doom.

Warcraft 3 Modding spawned one of the most popular genres available, mobas through a single MP map called DotA (I know it really started in Starcraft but whatever) Edit: To this day I wish that instead of DotA, RP maps got all the attention and help spawn some awesome RP oriented projects :/

All the games that are hard to mod I ever played, I played, for however long it took to get through the story, and then never again unless the gameplay was really that good AND/OR had multiple endings that were worth a second playthrough which is rare.

I would legitimately argue that modding is one of the most important things when it comes to any game's longevity. Not MP, not DLC, not lootboxes, fuck all that (Unless you're EA and into $$$ whales will buy that shit no matter how far you shove that harpoon up their ass), all games that have JUST that DIE. Games that are moddable live forever.

Fking Freedom Force modding exists to this day and people buy old Windows 98 PCs just to run the Map Editor.

Edit: I will admit, I am burned out by PZ but somehow (gee i wonder how considering what I said above) I keep coming back to it. Despite work, despite fcked up IRL drama I got involved in (Why I don't update my mods anymore, for which I am infinitely sorry) It's because, Official updates or mods, there is always something fresh for me to experience in it, be it a new map, random content or some basic but fun to fck around with for a few hours NPCs.

Edit #5: And that's my complete rant on gaming v0.9.
 

Edited by Svarog
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I'm a little late to this party, but the only advice I can give is, if there's something you are waiting for and it that bothers you that it's not in the game yet, just move along until you want to try again.  It may never be in the game and that's just the way it is.  However, after 8 years the devs have proven this isn't like other EA titles where they abandon it after 1 year.  There was a period of time where I was afraid that was happening, especiallly when mondoid after mondoid only talked about sound improvements.  But over time, they've proven they are sticking it through to the very end.

 

I've taken very long breaks from this game and after every long break I came back to significant changes in the game.  Some weren't good like the initial zombie migration system or the complete removal of npcs (although this was completely understandable).  Others were great, like vehicles, 3d models and significant modding support.  I always play on the beta branches when I come back so that I can get the most up-to-date stuff.

 

Between thoroughly tested additions by Indie Stone and amazing mods (such as mods that add npcs) each time I come back I find a new style of game to play.

 

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Aye. There's something timelessly charming about PZ. 

 

Like it acknowledges that poeple aren't into triple AAA polished games, like they are a luxury product made to be sold in the 60 Euroes range, just to end up lacking in innovation. 

Look at Mass Effect Andromeda:  INCREDIBLE graphics and music, and atmosphere. But all people cared about was how ugly the animations were. But everyone did agree on one thing: The experience was mediocre at a game design level.  Same old shit + shiny does not make it great.  

 

PZ on the other hand; Indie as a stone.  Timeless pixel art and doing shit no triple AAA studio would ever even DARE cuz it's *so* niche.  It's so refreshingly different. Such attention to detail, without the shiny. 

It becomes clear that PZ is not meant for the common denominator. It's meant for connoisseurs who have already played all the kiddy games 5000 times over (Battlefield, WoW.. CoD, Counterstrike, etc etc..) 

 

It walks it's lonely path, across a dark forest, and has to pace itself.  I respect that.

 

You know how some games waste sooo much resources on "fidelity" when something with less fidelity achieves the exact same danm gameplay and experience!? 

 

Let me illustrate an example. 

 

The Drake Cutlass on Star Citizen:  800?cb=20141127102630

 

 

The Drake Cutlass on Space Engineers:  777CD7B1FA3E113BED71CCE3CCADA7CAD98A1BC9

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Drake Cutlass on StarMade: JkLOQYfUdZI5pgCJ69FRyn7Evj7TFUAyhuLvQeKD

 

 

 

The Drake Cutlass on Empyrion Galactic Survival:  ?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

 

B***ch, please. 

By the time Star Citizen get's their game out, i'll have mined, salvaged, fought, explored and crafted across 250 star systems, and 1000 planets on Empyrion.  The exact same feature set on both games, just that things look better on Star Citizen.  And even then, Star Citizen will never have the same crafting experience as the other 3 indie games. 

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On 3/26/2018 at 5:04 AM, SonaGX said:

Not to start talking about another game, but Empyrion might be worth loading up again for my girlfriend and I.

 

Hey, it's not like we're cheating on Project Zomboid :) We bought the game, and are cheering the team on. 

 

And yeah man. Empyrion did everything right. 

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17 minutes ago, Lightning Flash said:

I'd really like to see pre-RC3 Muldraugh make an official return as an added section of the town. I know there's the map from You Have One Day, but I'd like to see a current remake of the first map. Unless there's already one, of course.

It's a available in one of the challenges. :D

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1 hour ago, Lightning Flash said:

I'd really like to see pre-RC3 Muldraugh make an official return as an added section of the town. I know there's the map from You Have One Day, but I'd like to see a current remake of the first map. Unless there's already one, of course.

 

We only have You Have One Day map like you said, its a shame that you cant use it to play it on SP because it has no spawn zones for zombies and that the 2x textures break the map layout in a way.

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On ‎8‎-‎3‎-‎2018 at 8:12 PM, DizzyCrash said:

I have been playing this game since the very first demo ... which must have been 8 years ago or more now.. almost a decade. And I played the hell out of it at first thinking it would only get better, thinking they would be improving on that little charming map and world they first showed us..

But since the game has not added almost any of the features that it said it would have that got me excited like NPCs, Quests, Dynamic wounds like cauterizing and amputations, Human enemies, Diseases, Sanity. It was shaping up to be an amazing little girl but i feel like the game has only gotten uglier since the old days of wife smothering...

The graphics have been downgraded from the charming pixel art it had, the wordl feels empty and unchanging and prone to glitching or exploitation. Every year that crawls by i see almost no changes in the development.. No closer to the game they promised.  It feels like the game has been abandoned. 
It just gets uglier and buggier with every year with no end in sight. Why they didnt build on that initial framework i do not know. But can somebody please tell me what the state of this game is.

I consider the car update to be the biggest update yet. We should praise them for the car update.
The second contender being the graphics update. They're slow with development, but they're just an indie developer team. We can't expect huge monthly patches.
The map expansions felt SUPER refreshing too.

Edited by Patrick H
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I imagine MP will really pick up after the anim update, especially now that vehicles are in.

Hopefully some bigger maps and regional servers are also in the pipeline?

I'm very interested to see how SP ultimately ends up with NPCs included, but am far more interested in stable local vanilla MP servers myself

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On 3/8/2018 at 3:23 PM, Svarog said:


Well, that's just reddit being reddit if you ask me, that entire containment site of echo chambers is like that in my personal experience. I was referring to the Forum here. Hell, even on the steam forums people don't generally get the banhammer unless they get really rude far as I've seen and I've seen quite a few "dissenter" threads.

Also, I recommend this fairly fresh thread about NPC Question if you're looking for fresh Dev response @DizzyCrash

https://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23437-seriously-no-non-player-character-survivors-in-single-player-mode/

 


I think I'm personally one of the most opinionated and arguably most inflammatory people on the forum. I've been here a real long time, to get banned from the forum you basically have to be an incredibly awful human being with no capacity for remorse.

The thing I want most is NPCs I've read every Mondoid and Thursdoid I'm still waiting, I'm skeptical that NPCs are going to be some form of Skynet AI but I hope they'll be adequate and I'm certain they will be iterated upon until they are. Vehicles are huge, natural degradation of the world makes it feel more alive (er...dead?) and better weather will make it feel more real, the game's construction system has undergone huge changes especially involving quality of walls and such. We have electricity and all kinds of other things we didn't have way back when. I think it's disingenuous to say the world feels more dead when the world itself now reacts to the player more than ever and is in fact significantly more dynamic.

NPCs are a huge deal, but that's why they've taken so long. I rarely ever bother to ask questions about NPCs anymore and choose to just do something like:

https://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=NPCs&page=1&author=EnigmaGrey

or


https://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=NPCs&author=lemmy101

and usually the answer is quickly found.

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