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DicheBach

Seriously? No Non-Player Character Survivors in Single player mode?

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Surely I'm missing something here? I purchased this game with the understandable expectation that the character played by the player in single player mode is not the sole remaining healthy normal human in Knox County, i.e., that it was possible to meet, befriend, recruit and organize other healthy normal human "non player characters (NPC)" entities during gameplay and organize them into "communities."

 

This game has been in development since at least 2011. It has an estimated ~875,000 units sold according to SteamSpy (at an estimated median unit price of say . . . $10, that is $8,750,000 in gross revenue since the game was released on Steam, and that would mean ~$6.125 million pre-tax/pre-customs take for Indie Stone after the distributor [Steam] takes their cut . . .).

 

There are indie dev games which have been out for 1/8th as long, have 1/10th the sales volume, and nonetheless have recruitable non player character entitites in game. Recuitable NPCs have been in games since the early 1990s.

 

I see discussion to the effect that the vision for the computer controlled ally entities is to create something truly groundbreaking, something that might actually justify that widely misused term "A.I.". Were this not a commercial computer game product, I'd say that would be a laudable goal.

 

The game is only partly playable as it is. You are business people, and this game is your product. You have already received far more support and faith from the Steam marketplace than most indie developers ever DREAM in their entire careers. Take your heads out of the clouds, implement something that it is "good enough" put it in the game and move forward toward Gold. You do realize that you can always update the game.

 

Seriously guys. What are you thinking? You cannot possibly go from "no computer controlled ally entities in game" to "one of the best computer controlled ally entities in games" with zero play testing in between.

 

I am tempted to post a "Do Not Recommend" review on Steam.

Edited by DicheBach
correction

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My failure to read the fine print as if it was a high-dollar contract is no one's fault, and certainly not that of the developer or Steam. I'm not alleging I was misled, or any other form of malice on the part of Indie Stone or Steam; merely that the state of this game is shockingly out-of-synch with the environment in which it is being marketed.

 

Setting aside completely the issue of "unmet expectations" (which is only the entry point to my message, not the core of my message): these developers have lost their way. Eight years and no testable interim algorithms for computer-controlled non-player character allies, despite having sold VERY WELL compared to the indie marketplace overall. Thus, as I said:

 

Quote

Seriously guys. What are you thinking? You cannot possibly go from "no computer controlled ally entities in game" to "one of the best computer controlled ally entities in games" with zero play testing in between.

 

 

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I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt here and assume the charged language isn't intentional.

 

tl;dr: Getting NPCs back in the game and doing it quickly, just to rake in that sweet cash, is a matter of "won't," rather than "can't." 

 

NPCs

 

NPCs were in (basic tutorial then later survivors running around the map) up until the Steam release, but between the community outrage ( bugs and fear that the game would wrap up, leaving people with crap NPCs) and changes in the way the game worked, they were not immediately put back in. While it'd be possible to just re-enable and update the old NPC system, there's little point in doing so. Yes, it'd check off one more box on the planned features list and those that just want NPCs for the sake of having NPCs would be satisfied, but that's not what most of us want from Project Zomboid.


They'll be released iteratively, just like everything else. Once animations releasable, NPCs will be the focus (because what's left aside from housekeeping, engine improvements, and injecting content, really?).

 

Money

 

-Sold for $5-8 before sales up until it's Steam release

-Sold only a 16th of its Steam sales figures on Desura (its first 3 1/2 years)

-whatever upfront costs were required to develop the game before it became successful

-7 years of development is expensive

-People that work for you generally like being able to support themselves and their families, rather than donate their time (almost all of us work remotely, anywhere from Russia to France, Britain, and Canada)

 

So we have the interesting scenario where PZ sold comparatively well to many other games in early access (around the top 40), but sold for anywhere between 4 - 10x less than many of its contemporaries. Couple that to how long development has taken and that the future is uncertain, much of that profit cannot be freely spent. Unlike most developers, TIS doesn't tend to cut features and isn't interested in just getting a cut-down version of the game out of EA. 

 

Time

 

You'll find if you compare PZ's dev team (particularly the number of programmers that worked on the game) to most (there are exceptions to this, such as one or two-man teams that produced great games, but they are exceptions for a reason), PZ's team remains pretty small. It's only this year that it's seen a large expansion (four new coders, not all full-time, but several at the top of their field). 


For the first three years, there were only 2 coders working on the game. After Steam, this changed to ~5 working full time on the game.

 

TIS chose to do the game in Java (back in 2011 most indie-available engines weren't exactly great for isometric, tile-based games and  Microsoft had started to shelve XNA), which rather creates a talent vacuum for games programmers and, later, some interesting quirks about the JVM and its garbage collection (namely the lack of control over it, outside of aggressive profiling) became more prominent. 

 

They also chose OpenGL, which isn't always well supported by the type of hardware people tend to think a "simple" "2D" game can run on, that only costs $5. Intel's lack of support for FBOs, texture mirroring on integrated chipsets, and other various things made it much harder to expand the game.

 

The survival genre was also quite new when TIS started and expectations of what should be included in a survival game have just ballooned since. As can be seen, by its contemporaries (most of which are still in development), it's not exactly conducive to finishing quickly.

 

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I appreciate your detailed and edifying post EnigmaGrey. 

 

Nonetheless, I don't feel compelled to step back any of the points I made in my opening post. I feel sympathy for Indie Stone, I know they've faced a lot of difficulties.

 

From my standpoint, the message I have to convey is for THEIR benefit. Let me put it a different way: You've already sold nearly a million copies for a game that has no NPC allies in singleplayer mode. Consider two things:

1. How many sales are being forestalled indefinitely because of the lack of NPC allies in singleplayer mode.

2. What is the rate of "permanent loss" of those sales as time goes on.

3. What is the rate of "lost faith" or to be more technically accurate "lost brand loyalty" among those ~875,000 users who already sponsored your alpha project?

 

I have no desire to tear down an indie developer who (a) clearly has a love of their craft; (b) has already accomplished an amazing game; (c) shows promise of getting this gem into full-fledged Gold status, and quite possibly breaking Minecraft's records for total sales and overall impact on the gaming and digital consumer market worlds.

 

It is a neat game, and I'm 87.975% happy that I purchased it. That remaining 10.025% of "regret" is mainly a sense of disappointment/vicarious embarrassment which is apparently captured by the German word fremdschämen.

 

I'm not angry, I'm not vengeful, I'm not even delighting in their misfortune. They clearly are accomplished game developers. And yet, how could they spend EIGHT YEARS without even bothering to implement some rudimentary NPC algorithms?

 

People often go from "just graduated with their Bachelors degree" to "finished their Ph.D." in that span of time. If it is taking that long to create the algorithms necessary to implement functioning computer-controlled ally characters in-game, then perhaps the standards are too high?

 

 . . .

ADDIT: Anyway, I sense that this is a very sensitive topic and that fans/supporters have perhaps slipped into a "enabler" role perhaps a bit too easily. I know that there are a lot of jerks on the Internet and I sense that Indie Stone and this deficiency in the game in particular have been the target of a lot of jerk attacks, as suggested by the fact that my own sincere attempts to offer what I see as "criticially important feedback for the benefit of the developer and the community" is regarded with some unease.

 

A strong and meaningful relationship between a product creator (such as a game development studio) and its consumers (e.g., the gamers who frequent their forums) is, in all honesty, a beautiful thing. It is a rare thing in the modern marketplace, and social relations with such dimensions probably have been rare since at least the industrial revolution.

 

But when the relationship of the sponsor becomes one of "enabling" inertia, that is where the close supportiveness has begun to work at cross-purposes. Outsiders can see it, but many who might step in to say something will lack the basic tact and social skills to do so diplomatically and constructively. Certainly my goal is not to provoke uproar or reverse the prevailing affection which so many users obviously feel; perhaps I fall short in the diplomatic and constructive dimensions too. But that is my goal.

Edited by DicheBach
elaboration

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If you just bought the game... maybe it's worth a read into the development that HAS occurred over those years.

 

The game's development has it's pace, and whether that's to be described as slow or not within it's own context doesn't really matter. It's active, it has a community, and it generates enough interest to keep it's growing team paid. It's a hobby, and people are into it. It's a business, and the model is working. 

 

If you want NPCs, buy a game that says it has NPCs , or that shows them in a video, or that gives you any concrete basis from which to support your assumption that it has NPCs. Your unfounded understanding based on the "environment" in which the game is marketed sounds... kind words escape me.

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There were rudimentary NPCs in the game awhile back. But they weren't very good since they were, as stated, rudimentary. In my experience they almost always all died very, very quickly because they just weren't sophisticated enough to be able to get by in such a difficult, complex, and open world game.

 

I think it was a really good move to push them on the backburner and work on other things that would add a lot to the game and take less time to implement. Designing an AI to play this game convincingly without resulting to outright cheating has got to be very challenging. There are so many actions to take, places to go, dangers to deal with.. And players to interact with.  I've no experience with such things, but it seems to me any AI system that can reasonably pull off living in this world is going to have to be very sophisticated, and personally, I'm almost looking forward to just seeing them in action more than simply playing the game just so I can appreciate the artistry they are going to represent.

 

Think about it, this kind of game has more complex decision making and weighing of priorities than most games, and that is further complicated by how often they have to be reevaluated as you gain access to new information.

 

Quality work takes time, and look at how the game used to look. It's evolved considerably. It's natural to be disappointed when something you were looking forward to seeing isn't there, but it will be and to harshly judge this game largely upon that isn't very fair.  It still has a lot of offer now in its unfinished state.

 

You're also grossly over simplifying the situation when you say:

 

"....And yet, how could they spend EIGHT YEARS without even bothering to implement some rudimentary NPC algorithms?

 

.... If it is taking that long to create the algorithms necessary to implement functioning computer-controlled ally characters in-game, then perhaps the standards are too high?

 

That statement assumes that's all that's been going on this whole time. When in reality it's more like:

 

More playable area, and  new towns

Cars/vehicles

Vastly improved visuals, the game now has 3d models instead of almost entirely sprites

They are working on an animation update which will further improve the look of the game

More sounds, especially ambient sounds

Zombie behavior refinement

Excellent sandbox settings that allow players to fine tune their experience

Huge amounts of more content that is too expansive to cover here

And of course, multiplayer

 

That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Putting in NPCs earlier would have delayed all of this progress, which as a whole, have given more to players. NPCs will be an important part but it doesn't make a lot of sense to put them in before a good deal of the rest of the game has firmly taken shape. As new concepts and mechanics get added to the game more and more time would have to go right back into updating the NPCs over and over. That's not an efficient use of time and resources.

 

Better to put down the foundation before you start working on the roof.

 

 

TL;DR It's an early access game, these things happen.

 

 

Edited by BoogieMan

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As someone who got in late enough that I never actually saw these ''Rudimentary Early-Day NPCs'', I can't say I feel the need for them being so urgent. As I really don't have that feeling of ''If only it had NPCs, I could do ________ which I can't do without them.'' that a lot of older testers seem to have.

 

Heck, I was far more hyped up for the vehicles that I admit I would had been if the Devs had brought back the NPCs instead, as one of my biggest annoyances with PZ was how you pretty much became ''Trapped on your starting city'', and once you looted the whole place up, the finding of more stuff became a drag; you either had to A) Abandon that cool safehouse you spent so much time building and adapting to your liking and MOVE all those 500lbs of loot you had stashed there one backpack at a time or B) Make long, grueling foot journeys to the other places to grab a minimum of stuff and do the same journey the way back. Now with cars you ain't bound to any of that.

 

Don't like the place you started? Find a working car and go somewhere else.

Too much stuff to carry? Use the trunk.

Wanna live away of the city to avoid the ravenous brain-eating hordes but don't wanna do the long walk? Just drive there

Found a place stuff with cool loot but it would take you weeks to grab it all? Get a Stepvan and move it all.

 

Vehicles added a lot of cool features and removed a lot of annoyance.

 

Now, I really can't make a list like that for NPCs; what would they do that I cannot do myself or that I can't fulfill some other way?

 

Gather loot for you? That'd be giving away the best part of the game

Help you fight zed humongous hordes of zed? A good bomb (or a car) can fix those.

Carry more stuff for you? Again, bless the trunk.

Give you quests? I can make those on my own; why do I need some NPC having me do the same fetch quest/kill quest ten thousand times on a row.

Provide more in game interactions? Multiplayer, baby!

 

Now, don't take all of this as me saying we don't need NPCs; we sure need them, but they aren't the CORE of my PZ experience.

 

They will come Someday™ and that's fine by me; I'd rather have some more story and lore elements (like the radio stations and the annotated maps) or something to make fire stop acting like the entire world is doused in gas.

 

And whenever they come, I'd rather have the Devs take their sweet time to test them out and make sure they are in worthy condition of being added to the game, instead of having them just toss them out a la ''Here's your NPCs! Happy? Good.'', like Starbound's devs did with bringing the game out of EA because their player base was nagging at them....

 

Just my two cents here.

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7 hours ago, DicheBach said:

Seriously guys. What are you thinking?

All else being said, I want to let you know that yours is a sentiment I am sure we have ALL been able empathize with at some point since getting into the game. As you can see, many people have weighed these thoughts before :P

 

I hope you're able to find some other charm in the game that might keep you engaged with it! Or maybe you'll find another NPC ai game to tide you over.

Edited by trombonaught

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Decided to check back in on Project Zomboid after being away for a year to find a few minor improvements which include a vehicle system but I have to agree with the OP in that the excuses are rather bullcrap as far as the NPCs go.

 

I DO remember the original NPCs that were in the game 7 years ago......let that sink in SEVEN YEARS AGO.  Even starting from scratch after the laptop incident shouldn't have taken this long to produce SOMETHING.

 

I'm sorry but taking this long to get stuff done is on the lines of Duke Nukem Forever in that what the hell is going on 99% of the time with development?

 

There are tons of people giving them pats on the back for what is done and what is done is done well it is just the progress rate is inexcusable at any level of developer.  No way these features should take this long with a dedicated dev team working on them.

 

To put things in perspective Project Zomboid was one of the first games released on Steam Greenlight in the top 10 from what I remember.

 

I do hope things improve but that is a pipe dream at this point.  I've watched games go from idea stage to release and the devs make ANOTHER GAME after that in the scope Project Zomboid has been worked on.

 

Now that that has been said Project Zomboid is a good game and I hope that they finish it soon but we all know that isn't going to happen.

 

Hey go ahead and prove me wrong, I really hope that you do prove me wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, DicheBach said:

My failure to read the fine print as if it was a high-dollar contract is no one's fault, and certainly not that of the developer or Steam. I'm not alleging I was misled, or any other form of malice on the part of Indie Stone or Steam; merely that the state of this game is shockingly out-of-synch with the environment in which it is being marketed.

No offense, but this is a small indie game you bought, and your tone is pretty overly professional and weird. All your posts are pretty pedantic. You say you aren't alleging being misled or malice on part of the devs as if this was a court room. Yeah, the NPC dev time is sorta crazy, I think most people agree it's been too long even if there's reason for it. But "failure to read the fine print as if it was a high-dollar contract", really? You bought a game on Steam and didn't read the store page on it all the way, and it's not long or hard to read. I'm sure everyone has done it before so it's not a big deal, but comparing it in that way is frankly ridiculous.

 

I advise trying out multiplayer with friends who might be into the game or otherwise finding people to play with somewhere. It makes the game a lot less lonely and humans are smarter than any AI, and you can get organised, do different tasks, take different professions and builds to compliment each other. Or else if you strongly prefer single player, try out the Survivors mod. Try to appreciate the game for what it is rather than what it could be and you'll be a lot happier with it.

Edited by NorthRoad

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Ou now nou wi nou da turht! Devilopirs are lazy ases ! they cant evin make enpeces! Oh and ewven the modmaker made it! Oh my thgey are so retarbeb!~ And no wories that dis mod is broken bagy and owerpouwered its a mastapiece!

Seriously, wth is wrong with you?

Edited by RealHumanBeing

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In that time that people were waiting for NPCs, the developers put in something relatively much more spectacular - Multiplayer, and about 5x the total map size.

 

I'm dedicated to building multiplayer communities and everything else they have added (vehicles are not a minor change and impact gameplay heavily) so as far as I know I have received more hours as-is for a cheap indie game than I would have with games that get a much easier time when it comes to fan complaints.

 

The way I see it, we've already received a solid game with solid gameplay either way. Even if NPCs take 10 years to come, I'll still have things to do until then.

 

That said, if they really buckled it into NPCs it would probably be done at the expense of neglecting just about everything else in the process. I don't know if you have seen how complex the map, building, farming, trapping and everything else in the game but the demand for NPCs that can interact with all of that, form their own communities, distinguish between threatening players and zombie as well as replicate some kind of dialogue to the players is pretty spectacular and would be a massive feat to accomplish.

 

I'm not saying 7 years wouldn't be enough to accomplish that, but everything else this small team has added and worked on justifies 7 years of paying staff with community testing. As a regular bug-hunter and tester, I know full well that half of the under-the-hood things they do for this game will go unnoticed and unappreciated, but development for the game has never stopped, and that's a fact.

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The thing I really like about Zomboid is that even though development can be slow, it IS still in development. So you can take a break from the game and come back in a month or so and there is usually something new to it, whether it's a new useful mod or new content.

 

I personally don't mind the pace, I think that when NPCs eventually do come out they will be freekin awesome, as the devs take their time and do not put out a crappy product. Also the fact that they listen to the community and actually implement suggestions from them is a big positive for me.

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2 hours ago, sumdood said:

It would be pretty neat if they could give us an update on the NPC development progress.  It's been a couple of years since the community has heard anything about it.

This is intentional. The devs made the mistake of showing animations too early, and the hype train began rolling. When they couldn´t/wouldn´t deliver in time the hype train derailed and community was outraged. They don´t want something like this happening again.

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Ya, I know.  They don't have to give a time frame of when it comes out, just show us what they got so far.  The concept behind it all was really cool, I just hope the silence doesn't mean they scrapped it for something simpler.

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10 hours ago, Bourbon said:

This is intentional. The devs made the mistake of showing animations too early, and the hype train began rolling. When they couldn´t/wouldn´t deliver in time the hype train derailed and community was outraged. They don´t want something like this happening again.

 

It's a shame that is even a problem, why so many struggle with it is beyond me. It's an in-progress game. That kind of stuff is going to happen. It is in no way surprising or unexpected.

 

Then again, seems like most people don't even have the self control to flick their finger to use their turn signal while driving so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.. Not unusual for the majority to suffer for actions of a very vocal minority.

 

Oh well.

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I bought the game very early, test it, following update, etc... but i let it go, and i do this 3 time in 7years.... lol
Sure there is comunication mistake but add choices too...
extend map -> need a drivable car
add recipes / profession -> add items / objects etc...

we ask too for new profession / items / features , etc...
If i consider "the game", for realism : there is always an item, a map who could give an ADD to the game.
But when i play in the country, no in the town.. no, even in the neighborhood ! it's true npc are missing and some car carcass can be consistency enough.
So 3d animations will be pretty, but it is visual... consistency of the game was layed aside to contents and visuals.

but that is wishes of our society... ;-)
(it is a 
sensitive subject, and it isn't handy to talk in english)

Edited by arkahys

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13 hours ago, Bourbon said:

This is intentional. The devs made the mistake of showing animations too early, and the hype train began rolling. When they couldn´t/wouldn´t deliver in time the hype train derailed and community was outraged. They don´t want something like this happening again.

Yes, yes, you are right, do not interrupt the work. Let's wait until those 3 devs finish their work. Same blah blah blah for years now - maybe not 8 because there was a major game revamp meantime, but a lot of time for sure.

 

The truth is that the NPCs development probably stopped a long time ago at some point because the dev team got distracted with adding MINOR, not widely desired, shiny features (which would be fine for the most players if these were implemented, but people would not starve if there was lack of them).

July 15, 2013

"So in short, NPCs have dedicated 100% development time from three of the team, so it’s very much on its way. "

https://projectzomboid.com/blog/2013/07/the-shazam-report/

July 29, 2013

"However, at this point, we’ll have the meta-game system in place, and as the UIs are completed we’ll be able to fill out the meta-game events, scenes, and NPC interactions pretty quickly after this. "

https://projectzomboid.com/blog/2013/07/on-the-verge/

 

And what happened then? NPCs work progresses in the background. etc.. Then buggy splitscreen, then laggy multiplayer, then bug fixing, steam, sounds, tv and radio (was it requested and crucial for the gameplay?), maps, maybe anims first, maybe cars first, maybe animals and many more small things, which are probably used only by some more dedicated players.

 

Maybe....

Maybe your future NPCS will drive cars with their gangsters (not announced yet, but I would not be supprised), looting everything around with SpetzNaz shuba-duba tactics implemented, and each character is going to have its own story plot depending on what is going on in the world, whom he meets, what happens, what meta-events occur etc..

.,... but most probably NOT.

 

------------------------------

 

On 21.01.2018 at 3:50 PM, DicheBach said:

Seriously guys. What are you thinking? You cannot possibly go from "no computer controlled ally entities in game" to "one of the best computer controlled ally entities in games" with zero play testing in between

100% agree.

 

The best advice is:

On 21.01.2018 at 3:50 PM, DicheBach said:

Take your heads out of the clouds, implement something that it is "good enough" put it in the game and move forward toward Gold.

100% agree. Maybe it is THE TIME to get realistic and honest about NPCs. The time to get something done about this immideately ..

 

---------------------------

And question: will you delete this post too?

Edited by wpisznazwe

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2 hours ago, wpisznazwe said:

Yes, yes, you are right, do not interrupt the work. Let's wait until those 3 devs finish their work. Same blah blah blah for years now - maybe not 8 because there was a major game revamp meantime, but a lot of time for sure.

 

The truth is that the NPCs development probably stopped a long time ago at some point because the dev team got distracted with adding MINOR, not widely desired, shiny features (which would be fine for the most players if these were implemented, but people would not starve if there was lack of them).

July 15, 2013

"So in short, NPCs have dedicated 100% development time from three of the team, so it’s very much on its way. "

https://projectzomboid.com/blog/2013/07/the-shazam-report/

July 29, 2013

"However, at this point, we’ll have the meta-game system in place, and as the UIs are completed we’ll be able to fill out the meta-game events, scenes, and NPC interactions pretty quickly after this. "

https://projectzomboid.com/blog/2013/07/on-the-verge/

 

And what happened then? NPCs work progresses in the background. etc.. Then buggy splitscreen, then laggy multiplayer, then bug fixing, steam, sounds, tv and radio (was it requested and crucial for the gameplay?), maps, maybe anims first, maybe cars first, maybe animals and many more small things, which are probably used only by some more dedicated players.

 

Maybe....

Maybe your future NPCS will drive cars with their gangsters (not announced yet, but I would not be supprised), looting everything around with SpetzNaz shuba-duba tactics implemented, and each character is going to have its own story plot depending on what is going on in the world, whom he meets, what happens, what meta-events occur etc..

.,... but most probably NOT.

 

------------------------------

 

100% agree.

 

The best advice is:

100% agree. Maybe it is THE TIME to get realistic and honest about NPCs. The time to get something done about this immideately ..

 

---------------------------

And question: will you delete this post too?

 

Why so hostile mate. This game has shown steady development over the years and maybe they haven't added yet what you like, but I'm pretty sure they will in the future. Also something you don't like might be appreciated by other people. I know this is difficult to understand in the current world of me, myself and I, but that's how it is. Even now they are testing vehicles, which IMO isn't a minor feature and something a lot of people want. Maybe their way of communicating hasn't always been the best way, but they always did it with the best intention (even though it didn't have the desired effect sometimes). It's okay to complain but do it like how you would do it in real life, constructive and without giving the other person the feeling that you're being unfriendly. If the game isn't what you want yet, give it a rest, play some other games and come back another time. You've probably already got your money's worth out of the game, so everything extra will just be icing on the cake now.

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Yes, npc development have probably halted a couple of times due to technical limitations, that's my guess as well, so what? They did the impossible already with the shittiest engine on earth. They even hired more professional people to try and beat those limitations, and i'm sure as hell they will. Game have ups and downs but it is one of those that will go somewhere

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