Weapon Wear and Tear
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It was thinking about how many baseball bats I've went through in game before when I realized that the weapon break system is flawed.

Take the baseball bat for example. IRL, a wooden ball bat would take more damage from actually playing pro baseball than from hitting a dead body over the head. 90-100 mph fastball vs 2-5 mph swing. I've gone through a full health baseball bat in 2 weeks ingame. In reality it would last you a lot longer.

This is just one example of how it's flawed. At the very least I'm asking for a sandbox feature, at best an extension to how long it takes for stuff to break. A pencil breaking in two hits makes sense, a slightly beat up kitchen knife...?

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1 hour ago, TheWraithPlayer said:

It was thinking about how many baseball bats I've went through in game before when I realized that the weapon break system is flawed.

Take the baseball bat for example. IRL, a wooden ball bat would take more damage from actually playing pro baseball than from hitting a dead body over the head. 90-100 mph fastball vs 2-5 mph swing. I've gone through a full health baseball bat in 2 weeks ingame. In reality it would last you a lot longer.

This is just one example of how it's flawed. At the very least I'm asking for a sandbox feature, at best an extension to how long it takes for stuff to break. A pencil breaking in two hits makes sense, a slightly beat up kitchen knife...?

Yeah, but you must realize that no one swing's a bat 2-5mph if they're expecting to do any damage. I believe most pro baseball players swing their bats around 70-80mph, so us survivors are probably swinging at speeds less than that.  That being said, I do think a lot of the weapons could use some minor adjustments and a sandbox feature would be a cool way to allow players to mess with that.

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Something to think about - the type of wood matters. Maple bats will shatter easier than say white ash or hickory. 'Most' mass produced bats are made from composites now, in the pros they still use solid wood, by regulation.

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Baseball bats are usually lightweight, dense woods that aren't reinforced in any way. Just a good ol' hunk of wood. So they can only take so many blows before stress fractures start appearing on the surface or in the wood itself. Also with baseballs, there is a major physics difference between:

Baseball: Fabric covered ball made of cork or rubber where when you smack it, the ball compresses and absorbs the shock of the blow before being sent off. Not to mention that a ball is light, and doesn't have anything attached to it. When you smack a 5.25oz/142gr baseball, you don't have to worry about destroying a bat.

 

Human Skull: Bone that is stronger than steel in the same amount of mass, made and evolved to protect the most vulnerable and important area of the human body. When you crack a bat against it, the skull doesn't compress from the shock, and the energy is transferred back into the baseball bat which damages it. You get that "buzzing" feeling of the vibrations being sent up the bat, like thwacking a stick (or a bat) against a tree. When you crack a human skull, you are smacking a 11 pound/5kg object. That's like hitting around a bowling ball (of which funnily enough, a normal adult human head is the average weight of). Also the skull it attached to a spine like a cord to a super heavy 150-200 pound body of rotting flesh. In fact I would definitely say wear gloves to prevent the shock going into your hands and messing up your arms.

 

The problem here is the force applied to the mass of an object. In terms of that baseball, the kinetic energy flings it off into the distance. In case of the skull, the kinetic energy gets somewhat rebounded into the baseball bat, which causes fracturing or a break. If the blow is enough to fracture the wood, it will eventually get worse and worse until it breaks. You will notice a lot of medieval weapons have iron rings around the handles of clubs and hammers, or that modern tools have springs or something for shock absorption. The iron/steel rings on weaponry is to avoid fracturing and splitting of the wooden handle. The springs, wires or other things for modern tools are to absorb the energy of impact when you either miss the object entirely or to avoid harming the user.


I would be surprised if a baseball bat would last you ten heads in a zombie apocalypse. That's why puncturing weapons like ice picks and things that can pierce the skull in a small point (like a bullet) to crack a head open is a lot more efficient than a blunt object. The benefit of blunt objects is that you don't have to sharpen them and they won't get stuck.

If I was going for blunt, even a metal baseball bat wouldn't be the best, they aren't completely metal. Definitely would use a crowbar made from titanium (for durability) or steel (for weight, which helps crack skulls) and for sure would make a handle for them or wear gloves.

Also fun hint for an apocalypse, you know the point at the back of a fire axe? Use that instead of the broad head. You'll avoid glancing blows.

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20 hours ago, Skooma Skeeve said:

Yeah, but you must realize that no one swing's a bat 2-5mph if they're expecting to do any damage. I believe most pro baseball players swing their bats around 70-80mph, so us survivors are probably swinging at speeds less than that.  That being said, I do think a lot of the weapons could use some minor adjustments and a sandbox feature would be a cool way to allow players to mess with that.

Yeah, my estimate was way off :( But, A for effort... right?

 

Also, baseball bats in reality wouldn't be great, but to be honest, not much portrayed in video games, movies, and books would be. Bats where just the first thing I thought of.

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23 hours ago, TheWraithPlayer said:

It was thinking about how many baseball bats I've went through in game before when I realized that the weapon break system is flawed.

Take the baseball bat for example. IRL, a wooden ball bat would take more damage from actually playing pro baseball than from hitting a dead body over the head. 90-100 mph fastball vs 2-5 mph swing. I've gone through a full health baseball bat in 2 weeks ingame. In reality it would last you a lot longer.

This is just one example of how it's flawed. At the very least I'm asking for a sandbox feature, at best an extension to how long it takes for stuff to break. A pencil breaking in two hits makes sense, a slightly beat up kitchen knife...?

Every game with a weapon durability system ever (probably) gets the same comments.

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I wouldn't complain about the lack of weapon durability so much as the lack of available increases to durability. why can't I take a propane torch. a metal sheet,  and a baseball bat, and wrap metal bands around the bat by cutting the metal into strips, heating it till it bends, then using tongs or leather gloves to wrap it round the bat, before dunking it in water, which makes it contract around the bat, essentially making a crude mace. 

 

I do sword fighting as hobby. in it we use a wood called rattan. far as I know its like halfway between pine and bamboo. looks like a stick of pine, and feels like one, but is rather light, and after a few hundred blows, splits into fibers. and someone skilled with one can hurt someone in full metal body armour,. one of the older men who is one of the most skilled there used his heavy broadsword like sword and broke 2 of a guys ribs, through his chest-piece. and in order to stops those swords falling apart (and us from being filled with splinters) we wrap them in a plastic tape. so I could make a baseball bat better with just a roll or duck tape and 10 minutes. gimme some wire and pliers, i'll make it even better. gimme barbed wire, and your gonna have a bad day if your a zombie. 

 

the fact that the only option is to stick nails into it is baffling. I get its a stereotype, but it would realistically just make the bat way more likely to split apart, or to just get stuck in some zombies ribs. hell, take some bolt cutters, take it apart into it's 2 halfs, and you've got a way better weapon that a baseball bat filled with nails. or even strap that half to one side of the bat to make the most DIY halberd in history. they'll all break eventually sure. but our current options are meh bat, and downright terrible bat with nails. at least gimme something more to work with here. 

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On 4/11/2018 at 5:17 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

Yeah, maintenance and recycling are not well represented in PZ at the moment. Can't even sharpen blades or put an edge to something.

There is quite the wonderful mod on the workshop called makeshift axes that allows you to remove the heads off of broken axes, craft new handles, and assemble and sharpen the axe-heads with stones and a belt for a final durability increase to 100% Paired with a mod that allows you to chip stones with other stones instead of getting 100000% lucky enough to find a chipped stone. 

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On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎20 at 4:06 PM, makkenhoff said:

Something to think about - the type of wood matters. Maple bats will shatter easier than say white ash or hickory. 'Most' mass produced bats are made from composites now, in the pros they still use solid wood, by regulation.

I've made a post a while back about how various wood have various uses, the harder (maple) is not always the most resilient (I agree). But then the flexibility or resilience of the material take out a bit of the kinetic energy (very minor for all intent in this game).

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎21 at 6:28 AM, Damien Darkside said:

(...)

Human Skull: Bone that is stronger than steel in the same amount of mass, made and evolved to protect the most vulnerable and important area of the human body. When you crack a bat against it, the skull doesn't compress from the shock, and the energy is transferred back into the baseball bat which damages it. You get that "buzzing" feeling of the vibrations being sent up the bat, like thwacking a stick (or a bat) against a tree. When you crack a human skull, you are smacking a 11 pound/5kg object. That's like hitting around a bowling ball (of which funnily enough, a normal adult human head is the average weight of). Also the skull it attached to a spine like a cord to a super heavy 150-200 pound body of rotting flesh. In fact I would definitely say wear gloves to prevent the shock going into your hands and messing up your arms.

 

The problem here is the force applied to the mass of an object. In terms of that baseball, the kinetic energy flings it off into the distance. In case of the skull, the kinetic energy gets somewhat rebounded into the baseball bat, which causes fracturing or a break. If the blow is enough to fracture the wood, it will eventually get worse and worse until it breaks. You will notice a lot of medieval weapons have iron rings around the handles of clubs and hammers, or that modern tools have springs or something for shock absorption. The iron/steel rings on weaponry is to avoid fracturing and splitting of the wooden handle. The springs, wires or other things for modern tools are to absorb the energy of impact when you either miss the object entirely or to avoid harming the user.


I would be surprised if a baseball bat would last you ten heads in a zombie apocalypse. That's why puncturing weapons like ice picks and things that can pierce the skull in a small point (like a bullet) to crack a head open is a lot more efficient than a blunt object. The benefit of blunt objects is that you don't have to sharpen them and they won't get stuck.

If I was going for blunt, even a metal baseball bat wouldn't be the best, they aren't completely metal. Definitely would use a crowbar made from titanium (for durability) or steel (for weight, which helps crack skulls) and for sure would make a handle for them or wear gloves.

Also fun hint for an apocalypse, you know the point at the back of a fire axe? Use that instead of the broad head. You'll avoid glancing blows.

I have to strongly disagree here. Bones are not stronger then steel, at least when at a perpendicular angle to the fiber. It takes an astounding minimal amount of force to break a bone when at or near a perpendicular angle. Parallel or directly on the same direction as the fiber, yes... it's it's job to be resilient.

 

Have you ever broke a finger throwing a hammer? I had and it was in less then 2' acceleration with a hammer (do the math using average acceleration swing + hammer mass).

 

A well placed hammer or bat swing perpendicular to the bones will crush it.

 

Question is, in the case of a bat (since most of the weight is in the bat itself), how will it react to the same force? (a hammer head will dissipate part of it through the metal head that's unafected or nearly as such... the handle getting the residual impact force (after sound, vibration in part, ect))

 

I've done maths recently to discuss falling damage, a single story fall will get you up to roughly 27 mph. But even at that speed, depending on how and where you land, it does get fatal (using the kinetic energy of a normal human being). The same kinetic energy for smaller mass requires a lot more speed (in some cases ridiculous amount of it : edit : think a bullet that's virtually massless... it requires incredible speed to match the kinetic energy of a larger mass).

 

But even a fraction of it, well placed, is enough.

 

Even at 15 mph (let's say it's running speed), considering only part of your body mass due to the vector (say the head and shoulders), if you run blindly into a wall without any form of protection you'll either get a fracture or a more serious injury.

 

Btw, I did read your post and I agree, smaller more resilient objects (including hammers) should have more durability. Larger, bulkier objects should have less (in a rebalanced system).

Edited by MyTJ

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