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Knives: any plans to deal with there over-powered status?

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Hi all.

Is there any future plans to deal with knives and there current status as over-powered?

They disregard all personal states when compared to blunt weapons.

The current situation just doesn't feel right.

I understand there are other priorities at the moment and i'd settle for a Dev comment saying yes at a later date.

Thanks.

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This will be something to bear in mind when we're all working fully in the anims build.

 

Wider question: is this a commonly held sentiment? I haven't noticed people talking about it much before.

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Oh yeah, now you mention it the jaw stab has been brought up a fair amount. I'll be sure to log that when it comes to the anims build - combat will be changing quite a bit.

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I love that it's there only because having 2 combat techniques is better than 1. But given that I have used jaw stab as my primary attack for virtually every character ever (including brawly builds), it is probably way too good as is.

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4 hours ago, Batsphinx said:

This will be something to bear in mind when we're all working fully in the anims build.

 

Wider question: is this a commonly held sentiment? I haven't noticed people talking about it much before.

There was a post about OP knives in this thread 

https://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20738-build-38-and-beyond-small-but-important-suggestions-thread/

 

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The jaw stab is definitely very powerful. The combination of one hit kill and it being very quiet makes it amazing.

 

This is much less powerful once you reach a certain zombie population as it takes more time and locks you into focusing on one zombie. When you run into another group while spreading your focused group out, the jaw stab becomes a liability.

 

If the jaw stab is to be reworked, I'd hope that a quiet way of disposing zombies would still be available for those of us that like to play with increased zombie hearing (or even just vanilla 6 months after.)

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3 hours ago, Zorak said:

Just put some lvl req (5?) to jaw stab and its fine.

I second this. I think the jaw stab is fine, but the problem is that any character can immediately use it. It should be a move that's only available to someone who knows what they're doing.

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maybe apply some sort of kill limit before it becomes available, like how you'd learn to kill zombies more efficiently after a while

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5 hours ago, Zorak said:

Just put some lvl req (5?) to jaw stab and its fine.

Idea with OP abilities attached to high skills is great, but there should be alternative to this, otherwise knives become useless. High chance to miss without needed level of blade weapons skill? Make level-upping this skill less hard?

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I think it'd be completely fair with some minimum blade skill, but not too high, since unless you're using an axe (which are expensive and rare) or already jaw stabbing left and right it takes a long time to level. Knives aren't very good without jaw stab and all but the hunting knife break quickly.

 

It might also make sense to include by default with certain professions, such as thief, and then that'd be more incentive to take those compared to currently more useful ones.

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I like the idea of limiting the jaw-stab ability to certain professions and traits, needing to read a martial arts or survivalist mag to learn the recipe, and/or being unlocked after reaching blade accuracy 2 etc; but blocking the jaw-stab ability completely if certain moodles are present could be better for gameplay and balance, eg having to change tactics due to panic, exertion, and pain.

This puts some limits on the OP issue, and in-game could mean needing to drop that second big hiking bag and switch to a 2-handed weapon to fight your way out a raid gone bad, which may better for immersion than casually stabbing your way through the scattered hordes with one hand, while carrying large amounts of loot.

 

The carpenter and repairman professions as well as handy, brawler, and self-defence class traits should enable a one-hit attack with a hammer IMO, at least from behind.  Same could apply to the wrench and mechanic skills  : ]

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I'm just going to post this so the idea is represented if any devs look over this thread for consideration: I think tying access to a kill-skill to any non-combat oriented class (so vets and cops are the exception) is a little silly.

 

Can't say I know too many carpenters practicing their hammer-swing headshots, for example. Also not aware of any thieves who practice jaw-stabbing people in preparation for their b&e's.

 

I think most melee tactics should be available to everyone by default, but that with low-level skills in blunt and blade, your execution might be slower and less effective. 

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Maybe so; but if the jaw-stab is already part of the game, surely someone who can use hand tools being able to penetrate a skull with a hammer is more believable than people being universally able to thrust through the throat, tongue, and palate with a kitchen knife?

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43 minutes ago, hyperchondriac said:

Maybe so; but if the jaw-stab is already part of the game, surely someone who can use hand tools being able to penetrate a skull with a hammer is more believable than people being universally able to thrust through the throat, tongue, and palate with a kitchen knife?

After some quick searching I think the melee one hit KO is maybe easier to do than the jaw stab.

 

Honestly I'd love to see it all in there, but I think it should be available to all and as effective as your combat training permits. I cringe at the idea of locking things in this game to any class (including the current status of desensitized and axeman).

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Many things come to me mind relative to this...

 

1) Jaw stab is totally OP but...

   1a) You NEED practice to master and i speak of some kind of actual In Game practice and experience (more or less if you're fast learner/have good tempo, probably). So, rewarding IG play with that kind of move is a GOOD thing.

  1b) It's not that good (as in "safe") to handle a big bunch of zed. 2H are better for that. So, it's have some sort of downside (a little one, ok...)

 

2) That move is really noticeable because there's no counterpart for other weapon style.

  2a) Sure, 2H weap (axe mostly) swing can get out 2-3 zeds in a row ; but you need space and time to manoeuver/recover.

  2b) Firearms are just bullshit (beside the zombie attraction, the killing potential is dumb...), so it's not a viable alternate...

  2c) Any 1H weap (beside those with stab power as knives and screwdriver) are just bullshit (bis) : no stopping power, no dmg, reduced range... Not a viable alternate, if you want to survive.

  2d) Thorwing dat bombs ; useful vs horde (downside ; noise as in firearm) but of 0 use vs a single zed. So, very specific use.

  2e) The Firecamp method : If you can call that a combat style, but it"s more related to your Fitness than anything else :-D . It's tied to a restricted & immobile area, it requires time and it comes with the risk of spreading an uncontroled fire. On the other hand, the killing potential is tremendous (most certainly THE answer to any real mass/hordes - Zed Threat). In a sense, i found that thing as OP as jaw stab...

 

There's no other weapon/combat style allowed.

 

So, before branding something OP and arming the nerf tool, maybe it's wise to consider to buff the others weapon/combat style a bit ?

 

Anyway, as the chiropterate riddler (no reference to D.C. implied) says ;

 

19 hours ago, Batsphinx said:

Oh yeah, now you mention it the jaw stab has been brought up a fair amount. I'll be sure to log that when it comes to the anims build - combat will be changing quite a bit.

 

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21 hours ago, Batsphinx said:

This will be something to bear in mind when we're all working fully in the anims build.

 

Wider question: is this a commonly held sentiment? I haven't noticed people talking about it much before.

 

it's depending on the lore you use...

 

if you say "hitting the brain hard enough should kill a Z instantly" the 1-hit-kills are ok .. maybe not with a butterknife but per definition..

 

a stab with a spear in the skull should instand kill, a headshot should instant kill, a hit with a blunt weapon hard enough to damage the brain should instant kill...

 

so it's not a problem with blade-weapons overpowered but more about "blunt weapons", axes etc not powered enough" as they lack the "instant kill" mechanic..

 

so I would say, more instant kill is needed not less (but not wilth screwdriver, pen and butterknife as atm)

 

if your lore says "destroying/damaging the brain does not kill the Z" - than an instant kill should not be possible.. but this would also count for headshots...

 

EDIT: you could also say "there is a small part of the brain that needs to be destroyed to kill the Z" - which might need some knowledge in medicin (to know where this part is located) and weaponskill to improve the chance to hit this part - but this would need some possibity to dissect bodies to "learn how to kill" them, and to skill up medicin to be useful (as it is not atm)

 

it's really the lore you use/have that should dictate the mechanic

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The butter knife shouldn't have a Jaw stab  ability due to the blade  being too dull and too short . 

 

The kitchen Knife and the hunting knife are more logical to jaw stab a zombie since the blade is long and sharp. 

  

 

 

 

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Would it be more "realistic" if instead of a jawstab they ram the knives/screwdriver through the ear?  I mean just about everyone knows that to kill a zombie you destroy the brain, and any hard, long enough object, (screwdriver, knife, even a pen/pencil) driven through the eyes/ears can penetrate the brain.  I mean I'd be more likely to attempt the eyes or ears than under the jaw myself, or even a screwdriver through the tops of the head.

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Even considering the one hit KO, most of those weapon types are flimsy.  I'd need a whole bag full of butter knives for a hundred zombies.  Unless I just have terrible luck most weapons aren't full health when found, so I get 1-4 kills with a butter knife, 1-10 with a kitchen knife.  I generally curb stomp 100-200 zombies my first day, and let me tell ya I sure don't find that many knives.  I use them as a quick kill if I aggro more than 3 and it's to drop the fastest ones.

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Why can't they just buff blunt weapons after zombies have corroded? Like.. 2/3 months into the game, where zombies are all walking pieces of rotten flesh.
This is where blunt weapons should shine, their bodies are falling apart. Why would you need a sharp object to kill them?
Though locking the jaw stabbing mechanic under a trait would be fine by me too. (The Veteran trait!!!!!!)

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Glad this is addressed.

 

The issue should be separated though:

1. Blunt weapons. They are many and common, they are mostly good, they are durable and easy to repair. Moreover, they allow player to stack skill points due to maintenance. But — no instant kill (sledgehammer included), loud and slow way.

2. Blade weapons are flimsy and scarce, with almost no variety. They are mostly useless without instant kill because, well, in my experience you have a slim window when if you miss the kill, you are scratched or bitten in most cases (means death with transition turned on), so blades means almost certain death for either player or zed (maybe I'm doing it very wrong, idk, but that's how it usually is when having MP lag, for example). No pushback with small blades also.

 

I think removing the only use for butter knives and screwdrivers is not a good idea: blades will become even more scarce. Increasing a distance for blades will be a must in this case so that player can evade the zed for some 'guaranteed time' after a failed attack to compensate for non-existent pushback. That leaves what, axes? There are many mods adding longer blades in the game, from military to katanas and even medieval swords, they address this one issue, and I really would like the as in-game content.

 

Yes, I agree that a butter knife shouldn't have a jaw stab, and I'd like to see various new moves with blades because well you should learn them at some point. 'Swing (close)'/'thrust (further)'/'jaw stab (closest)'/'ear or eye penetration (closest)'/'cut in half (farthest)' and so on. These should vary depending on a blade and player preferences, so basically in my world that means new animations and massive rework of the blade weapons system. So definitely not a fast fix is needed here, because that new system will require new items and a better balance.

 

Meanwhile, adding a chance for an instant kill with heavy blunts (sledge, spiked bat, hammer, crowbar) is a nice idea. Something along the lines of 'blunt accuracy x 5% + 0.5%' for each swing.

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