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How do guns in PZ work?


BoogieMan

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When you fire a shot, how does the game calculate what the round will hit? Hit rate vs. a single zombie and vs a crowd doesn't seem to be different. At least with the hunting rifle.

 

Just messing around, I gathered up around 80-90 zombies and walked them into a line down a road. They were bunched up pretty tightly. I fired off 81 .308 rounds with the hunting rifle (no upgrades) with a shooter skill of 2. Despite the horde of zombies behind me, I killed just two and as far as I can tell only struck one other. Unless they very rarely stagger or leave blood when hit with a non headshot? But even then, that's an abysmal hit ratio. Most of the time was spent in slight panic(brave) and I varied from near point blank, to about a zoomed out screen away, but most were probably in the 30-60ft range. Average aiming time while stationary was between 3 and 5 seconds per shot. I tried a further 15 shots or so with a 4x scope at about 70-80ft, didn't hit any stationary zombies.

 

Even with at just 2 shooter skill I can see not having a lot of luck hitting what I am aiming at, but shooting at a horde that big it seems like it should be damn near impossible not to hit at least something. Even someone with no rifle training could hit something in a horde that big even if only luck would provide a kill shot. Against single target, no they wouldn't hit very often either. But when shooting at a horde, unless you're pointing at the ground or the sky, you're going to hit something.

 

 So how does the hit scanning work for guns?

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I utterly despise the dice roll system they use, The only way to ever hit anything with a gun if you don't have any gun skill is to use a shotgun and even then if you want to get your skill up to be able to use pistols or rifles you will have to spend an absurd amount of ammunition. it's also annoying that one shot from any gun will draw every zed for miles, I know "realism" but ffs what's the point of even having guns? They are only good for luring hordes. Okay, rant over.

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2 hours ago, BoogieMan said:

Unless they very rarely stagger or leave blood when hit with a non headshot?

This is the case.

 

Though the rifles are also pretty much useless at low levels. Pistols and shotguns provide favorable returns.

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3 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

This is the case.

 

Though the rifles are also pretty much useless at low levels. Pistols and shotguns provide favorable returns.

 

I see. That's interesting. In reality, provided you have the strength to hold it steady - rifles are much easier to be accurate with at low user skill levels than pistols. Even at the same range difference.

 

What about the mechanics of how it is determined what the bullet hits? It doesn't seem to "realistically" scan in a line from the firing point.. Does it roll a percent chance to hit whatever it decides is in danger of being hit and if that target is missed the bullet just misses everything? That's what it feels like. Doesn't seem like it keeps going and checking for follow up targets.

 

What affects the chance besides skill, range, panic, and if you are moving?

 

Such as:

Target Moving

Lighting level near target

Weather

Encumbrance

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I use the "Real Gun Mod" off of Steam but I think it uses the mechanics anyways.

 

PANIC seems to be one of the biggest factors of aiming. I don't ever bother to shoot unless I have Beta Blockers on me. Also I always "charge" my shot like a blunt or bladed weapon. That always helps too.

 

All in all though. I use guns as a way to put off some steam in a playthough, or as a distraction tactic.

 

Find massive horde.

Shoot gun.

Massive horde follows you.

Move to wooded area.

Fire again.

Run around wooded area for a bit in a large loop and come back to the town, which is 100+ zombies freer.

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In my most recent playthrough, I was thinking about this as well since in my opinion, the RNG associated with firing firearms at the moment aren't very fun.

 

A character with the veteran profession, thus desensitized (no panic influence), using a pistol at a single target ~2 meters away should not have to waste 4 bullets before finally putting it down, even with only the skill points that veteran gives you.

 

I think that the system with firearms could be much improved by turning the mouse cursor into a crosshair whenever using a ranged weapon, which provides more feedback on where you are aiming and, most important, why you're not hitting.  Make the crosshair pinpoint when not panicked, using an accurate weapon and taking the time to aim, make the crosshair dispersed whenever other factors like fatigue, panic, aiming time and all that become a limiting factor.

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8 hours ago, GHawkins said:

I think that the system with firearms could be much improved by turning the mouse cursor into a crosshair

I've seen this suggestion before but always thought it would appear out of place in this game; the player generally gives the character instruction which the character plays out without player input on the specifics of the action, as opposed to literal "point and click for X result in real time (movement being the exception, but again, how you input move commands cannot improve the speed of your character, for instance). I think the current system is fine (I like that your character has more control than you over what hits, since it's the character firing not you), or it WOULD be fine if the odds weren't so horribly against you.

 

Guns would be a great last resort weapon to shoot yourself out of a tight spot. Unfortunately you can't hit anything at even point blank range with any consistency. If short range hit probability got a big boost I think that'd fix enough of the problem for me.

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5 hours ago, trombonaught said:

I've seen this suggestion before but always thought it would appear out of place in this game; the player generally gives the character instruction which the character plays out without player input on the specifics of the action, as opposed to literal "point and click for X result in real time (movement being the exception, but again, how you input move commands cannot improve the speed of your character, for instance).

 

I wouldn't really call Zomboid a game where the player merely instructs the character. The player directly controls the character's movement (you already mentioned), the player directly controls what the character wears, what the character carries, what the character uses as a weapon, when to use that weapon, where the character searches for loot, what the character actually takes as loot, what doors to open, what windows to smash. The player directly controls even the temperature of the ovens and microwaves, their timers, what the player eats, what the player puts in their salad, all that, the player has direct input on.

 

The player, to a certain extend and not taking into consideration roleplaying, is the character. In, for example, the Sims series, you're giving your sims instructions. You don't decide their exact movement path, you don't decide which direction they look at, you don't decide what they put in their stir-fry, the list goes on.

 

I am therefore of the opinion that, in regards to the ballistic weapons system, more feedback to the player is required to make it fair and fun. Melee weapons already provide that feedback, because you can directly aim your bat at the approaching threat. Swinging in the target's direction either results in the target staggering backwards (and falling), dying, or not doing anything, which means you missed. Missing with a bat means you weren't facing the proper direction, or you're being overwhelmed by targets.

 

The problem is, the game does not tell me why I would miss this shot, nor does the game tell me where my bullet could land, or when I take the shot, where it does land;

UnpsXRP.jpg

 

Is the "spread" of my pistol something like this because my character does not know how to shoot?

sdlV9jN.png

 

Or, is the inherent (in)accuracy of my pistol what hinders me, and would my shot dispersion look something like this?

YBvOAy0.png

 

Or, has my character been able to take a breath, draw aim with his well maintained pistol and would the spread look like this;

8DzEprG.png

 

If something like this is communicated to the player, he or she can make an educated choice about their firearms usage. It'd show you something your character is able to understand; their confidence about hitting their target. 

 

In my second image, the circle is large, which tells the player that their character has a hard time accurately firing their weapon because perhaps panic, perhaps because I ran down the street and hopped a fence to get where I am now. In my third image, it is communicated to the player that the weapon is simply not accurate enough to guarantee pinpoint shots which informs the player; close with your target.

 

And my third image of course explains to the player; Boom. Headshot.

 

It's all missing in that first image. The first image is purely RNG. The player can close with their target because logic dictates it'll become easier to hit. But the game does not communicate the increase in accuracy. It does not communicate that the RNG gets a bit more in your favour if you do so.

 

Something as simple as this white circle I drew with photoshop to indicate the approximate spread already communicates so much to a player who's debating with themselves if it's worth firing that round and I am sure, will take away frustration from thinking your "white circle" is pinpoint, when it's actually as large as a barn.

 

Although I understand that scripting such a circle into the game so that it dynamically changes according to the player's stamina, weapon, skill and all that jazz is an entirely different story, I hope I make a compelling case for it to be looked in to.

 

Disclaimer;

No zombies were injured or re-killed in the creation of this post. All images created for the purpose of this post have been staged.

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I like a lot of these ideas. The circle zooming in on targets to claim targets is a neat idea. That could be turned into a little minigame where it locks on slower with panic so you end up firing wildly. Angle could be used to dynamically change targets and you'd point at somebody and the circle could zoom in as you aim. This could be irrelevant for shotguns because of their mechanics but essential for rifles with scopes because of theirs. It could almost be a timing minigame where you could get in the rhythm with a rifle in a tower at high levels (but admittedly, if i tried the same trick in a tower i wouldn't accomplish shit, but with some training and practice...)

 

all of the aiming stuff can wait until npcs are in, imo. thats really when we need to be able to know who we're shooting at. 

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Currently, the following influence gun hit chance:

 

Aiming skill (affects it the most - using pistols or rifles between levels 1-2 will barely hit anything, shotguns are far more viable options for low levels)

 

Panic (high effect - can make firearm usage borderline useless as it should)

 

Arm/hand injuries (high effect)

 

Distance to zed (point blank = bad, too far away = bad, "sweet spot" (to be determined by skill) = good)

 

Moving while shooting (or just finished sprinting)

 

As it stands the system isn't very informative and is also quite confusing. Shots that hit center mass don't yield reactions leading the player to believe they have "missed" when they haven't.

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Yeah, it would be better if shots always caused a stagger, so you don't feel like you're firing blanks.

 

Do you mean literally point blank, as in touching? How close is too close? With common sense not providing results as you'd expect, like you said, it's hard to understand what variables are at play.

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8 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Each gun has  its sweet spot.

 

Shotguns work best 4-5 tiles away, pistols around 3, and rifles around 10+.

 

Trying to shoot a target that's too close will increase the chance you miss.

But how you can miss shotgun shot from a point-blank :-S

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8 hours ago, Zorak said:

No, but still the hit chance is quite low as for close range shotgun shot :)

"Point blank" may appear in a way that the gun muzzle is against the zed, but it really isn't.

 

If you are close to a shambling zed and you aren't very dextrous with a firearm putting a gun to the head and pulling the trigger can be difficult especially if you are panicking. The size of the gun and fact that you have reach with your arms as well also matters.

 

That said there really needs to be an element of coup de grace where you can really put a thing out of it's misery (a toppled zed, or player, for example) and not take 10 shots. Something to consider for the anims update.

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9 hours ago, Zorak said:

Tbh that shrinking circle is the best way, for those that like RNG and those that want to see where they are aiming.

 

You can shoot at herd and not hit a single zombie.

You can shoot a herd and not kill a single zombie. You hit them, but because there's so many and it's rarely ever a head shot, it has little to no effect. Kind of impossible to get around that, aiming circle or no.

 

Hopefully the animation build (or future editions to it) will provide better feedback without having to go so obvious. Not to mention drawing proper vector paths for bullets.

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1 hour ago, EnigmaGrey said:

You can shoot a herd and not kill a single zombie. You hit them, but because there's so many and it's rarely ever a head shot, it has little to no effect. Kind of impossible to get around that, aiming circle or no.

 

Hopefully the animation build (or future editions to it) will provide better feedback without having to go so obvious. Not to mention drawing proper vector paths for bullets.

I remember old ( b4 steam, with that Alien zombies) YT video when they had that shrinking circle aiming system (or it was just WIP).

But now I cant find it.

 

anyway I hope that the new animation update will improve pvp and aiming.

 

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Just did another test on the default settings in the West Point Gigamart parking lot day 1. Without leaving the parking lot, I killed 1015 zombies with a shotgun until I got bored and quit, and they were still coming. It's like they fire giant sonic booms that the zeds can pick up with pinpoint accuracy. :( Distant and semi distant gunshots are not easy to localize since the sounds echo and bounce around and the fact the bullet is traveling faster than the speed of sound.

 

Combining the fact that you have no way of knowing what your effective range is (like with the scopes) and that a shot will draw insane numbers of zombies just makes them near worthless for anything other if you happen to need to draw a horde somewhere.

 

Guns are loud, but they are not that loud. But that's only part of the problem. The main problem in the pinpoint accuracy of the firing location. Even sophisticated prototype gunshot detection systems don't work so well from so far away. Hopefully they'll get some much needed refinement.

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8 hours ago, MyTJ said:

Guns work fine.  Shotgun or pistol early on (the later if you have a lot of ammo to waste). Pistol afterward.

 

At high level of accuracy you can hit a group of zombies moving toward you and do a pretty little half circle-ish(notice the blood splatter is only in one direction?).

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=530986047

 

-There is no feedback  or information for the player in game to reflect your effective range, especially with gun mods like the scopes and how they affect minimum and maximum range

-You often don't if you're actually hitting them since the zombies rarely seem to react to non headshots it makes the player feel like they are always missing

-They attract insane numbers of zombies from vast distances to the very exact tile you were standing on when you shot unless the area has been heavily cleared already in which case they aren't needed anyway

-Non shotguns vs. hordes do not function in a way that makes logical sense. You can fire a lot of rounds into a thick horde and seem to hit nothing. Hit rate doesn't seem increase vs lone/small groups compared to massive groups.

 

Also, I'd never use a gun for a group that small anyway. Even if they didn't get so much attention.

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