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On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 3:20 PM, kirrus said:

The devs are using the methodology they are right now because

a) It works and

b) It's sustainable (Won't run out of money before game is finished)

 

The devs have been very, very clear on the features that need to have landed before they call the game done. Those features aren't in yet. Therefore, the game isn't done, and it will receive full attention from team TIS.

Keep up the work TIS team. I'm not a professional programmer because I disliked the impact of deadlines. I'm a purist - It's about the code and optimization. I look forward to the team that can accomplish what was done with "Joust" using a Gig. That team couldn't do it with 256K, but they were trying to expand "Joust".

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5 hours ago, Erkinwine said:

So it isn't done tomorrow or even next year. Ask yourself this, since you claim to spend a great deal of time playing it - "Do you enjoy that time?" If so, why are you bitching? You are getting what you paid for. I've been on board since late 2014, sot that's two years, now. Do you know how many games can actually keep my attention for 2 years? Outside of the Civilization franchise, there are probably fewer than five, I certainly could not list five.

Now, over that two years there have been a handful of new patches released. Each one feels like an expansion and renews my vigor and excitement for the game. And I get all this for one low price paid a number of years ago. Quite frankly, if the game takes until 204X, I would not be disappointed, because I would have a game that I have played for 25 years.

 

Bitching? Really?

 

Yes, I played and will play Project Zomboid a lot, bought the game to some friends and I am very happy something like PZ exists, I couldn't care less about ETAs, never asked for one as far as I remember and I totally understand why they're doing that.  I also understand everything you say and what everybody here wrote, sometimes I disagree, but I respect the point of view of someone that bothers to explain his position.

If it wasn't I have to write an essay every time I post something to explain my intentions... :(

I should join the praise club instead, much more convenient and less activity for the brain, I guess.

Anyway, I was just trying to discuss about PZ development, I thought this forum was the right place, sure I wasn't looking for a lesson from a guy that labels as "bitching" someone else's opinion without bringing a single point to discuss, if not posting a late entry for  'Sycophant of the year, 2016'.

 

You say: "Do you know how many games can actually keep my attention for 2 years?"

I couldn't care less what can keep your attention and, really, tell me, is that the ultimate seal of approval?

Please, I am serious here, not sure if you are. 

What's funny is what you miss is exactly the point and you show here "You are getting what you paid for."

I am perfectly fine with the game being in Early access, I am just here doing my part: reminding there's a game to finish, politely.

The cost for me will be justified when the game will be "complete", unlike you I didn't pay for being entertained with an incomplete game: I paid (play and post) to help TIS finish their game.

 

Here, apparently,  we have a lot of bored people with a lot of money to spend and they just want to be entertained for a few hours, like you. They expect nothing or very little, like you.

So, for many of them and for you, make a calculation hours played/money spent makes sense, but...it actually doesn't make any!

Some say "you paid only $10 and you played 100 hours, that means $0.10 for hour!  How can you expect anything , they just kept you busy for 0.10 / hour!"

Now, I don't accept this kind of replies as a serious reply to my point, not even as a part of a reply. If you paid and don't expect them to deliver or you just don't care if they ever will...It's your choice!

Unless you demonstrate they're doing someone a favor finishing their game, I'll keep thinking their main goal here has always been finishing the game one day, correct me if I am wrong.

This is not 'alpha-tester experience: Project Zomboid edition', it's Project Zomboid - Early Access.

Saying you accept to play this game as it is now doesn't mean you have to like it, doesn't mean you have to forget you can have a point of view or expect something: I am not complaining about the current status of the game, I am just talking about PZ development in general, on topic (I think).

 

Quote

 

Let me add, that if the Dev. team stopped work on PZ tomorrow, it would be sad news, but I would certainly feel I got my money's worth. To the Dev. team: Please don't stop. I love this game, appreciate your hard work and look forward to playing Build 36 and beyond.

 

Let me add, that if the Dev. team stopped work on PZ tomorrow, it would be sad news and I would feel robbed.

For the rest I can say the same thing: Devs, please don't stop. I love this game, appreciate your hard work and look forward to playing Build 36 and beyond.

 

 

@Butter Bot

Back then, maybe they could have put all the efforts in a project zomboid 2 instead, completing the first one first, making it small, simple, bug free and fun to play starting the new project with a clearer mind, a more realistic approach given by experience, a solid project and maybe with more work already done, but probably less cash in the pockets for some time.

There are a lot of successful second edition games in early access, however in this case, I guess, the hurry to get some good cash on Steam prevailed (as I wrote, I guess) or well, who knows, could be any other reason, anyway here we are, unfortunately, talking about TIS biting off more than they can chew...

And all this because I dare to say development looks slow comparing what you get for the time you've had to wait (considering the "weigh" of the update you get) to what it's still missing to reach the "complete" status.

Devs are more likely doing their best, but it's not like doing your best makes you necessarily fast and what I am saying it's actually really really obvious.

About this,  I read all kinds of explanations here, one of them being size of the team.

Size of the team, told like you said, like a cheap excuse you can't even discuss because someone could be easily offended, means nothing.

We are actually not in the position to determine they're doing their best since when we don't know:

skills of every single developer, motivations, time they dedicate on the project, hardware used, tools used, external people involved, project manager, working place/places, project details, schedule, guidelines, actual budget, goals in general (like technical, for example using a specific tool you don't know well therefore it takes more time but obviously you gain in experience...) and of course many other things.

And we cannot determine whether they're enough for a project like this or not, maybe they're too many, maybe just incompentent (it's just to make the point, I am not saying that they are), maybe just the wrong people...So size of the team itself means nothing. And their best, again, doesn't necessarily mean enough or, in this case, fast enough.

And in the end this doesn't even matter, because it's their decision to invest on this or that, do this or that, what is relevant and known is the result of those decisions -> the game we're playing now, the updates we're getting, the updates they say we'll get.

TIS didn't tell me "we're fast, we'll finish the game in a month", so it's perfectly fine (not sure what they meant with "have in the can this year", but whatever). However development is and feels slow, for those who care to talk about this kind of issues and it's not an attack or an insult.

Pointing that out won't make them faster, but can I say that, when on topic, every now and then?

 

I'd like to remind you, all this because I said something like  "maybe they could just do something smaller they can probably handle in less time and better", what an insult!

 

"Might never be finished" is just like a good excuse for failure, playing defence, useful/necessary from a legal standpoint, like "read terms and conditions", but doesn't sound well, does it?

And I am not even complaining, just talking about (slow) development in a topic about future updates, even saying nobody told me it was supposed to be fast, what a world.

 

Edited by Marco1
corrections

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What's so scary about TIS being slow that you focus on it and ruin what fun you have with the game, Marco? What's wrong with having ambition and doing your  damnedest to do achieve it despite "fans" hating on you for even bothering to try?


We've been at this for six years. No one's stopping after this. No one's turning the game into purely a modding platform or declaring a sequel just so you can have a sense of closure.  Be scared to death that PZ will fail and leave you without a few more hours of entertainment, if you want -- I'd rather enjoy the game as it is rather than work myself into knots over things I've no control over, like the speed of development.

 

That's not to say  you don't have an impact. Constantly telling us what you think we should do, that we're over ambitious and should just give in, that there's a good chance we'll fail because we're "slow" or you're impatient and bored of the wait is constantly on our minds and voiced everywhere, as is.

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@Butter Bot

The only bad feeling I get from this is from the words of people like Erkinwine, they don't have an opinion, but feel the need to say I am wrong...

I write something, a few lines, 1 minute in a week of thoughts about PZ and I see you reading way too much into my words.

However I am a grown up, dealing with people, devs are working and I respect that, if I feel you misunderstood my words I try to explain myself better. Maybe complicating things, who knows.

 

"Constantly telling us what you think we should do, that we're over ambitious and should just give in, that there's a good chance we'll fail because we're "slow" or you're impatient and bored of the wait is constantly on our minds and voiced everywhere, as is. "

Constantly... A couple of posts,  c'mon...

Like Devs care what I think or what others think...

In case any of them would read my words, what could happen? Nothing.

They already know if I am "wrong" or "right", actually even without reading my post.

Never said bored and I am not impatient. I wrote almost every time I don't care about ETAs, I can wait, no problem about that.

That doesn't make TIS fast, right? That's my point.

 

I guess it would be better if they were all praise, but most of the times even the ones complaining for something here are polite and often show they like the game anyway, I am sure it could be way way worse.

 

Thanks for your time.

Edited by Marco1

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For what is worth.

 

The devs knows that the game needs to be finished, so lets put that aside.

 

Project Zomboid has the reputation of slow development speed and for good reasons, shit happens, some features take less time than others and builds start going crazy, some features need to be pushed back so the completed features go forward and all that good stuff. Hiring new staff wont fix the development speed.

 

1 hour ago, Marco1 said:

 "maybe they could just do something smaller they can probably handle in less time and better", what an insult!

 

So what would be a small feature or update?

Right now to be finished, the game needs NPCs, hunting, the map with Louisville or al least Fort Knox and vehicles.

 

Now, NPCs, hunting and Vehicles are tied to the animation system that has been going for a long time, you cant make any advances on those features because well, like you said, you would need to rewrite everything.

 

As far as i can tell,  we are in a place where there is no smaller thing, that would be something similar to what happen in Build 35 where they pumped out features the community wanted to fill in the gaps while waiting for the animations, look at how that turned out because the animations kept begin delayed because shit kept happening, we just need to accept that the features will take a long ass time to get completed, i know in my heart that the animations wont get into the game until February or something like that and it hurts, but there is nothing you or i can do to speed up the process.

 

Project Zomboid was out even when early access was a thing,  back then was a tech demo out and the promise of "If you liked what you saw, you will get this and more if you buy our game", it was a promise between customer and dev and it still stands, even after the robbery, the bomb squad shit and everything that has happen to TIS, they still push forward to finish the damn game.

 

You just need to accept that TIS wont be any faster than it was right now, but its faster than it was way before, it cant get worse than this and the final product can only get better.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Marco1 said:

@Butter Bot

The only bad feeling I get from this is from the words of people like Erkinwine, they don't have an opinion, but feel the need to say I am wrong...

I write something, a few lines, 1 minute in a week of thoughts about PZ and I see you reading way too much into my words.

However I am a grown up, dealing with people, devs are working and I respect that, if I feel you misunderstood my words I try to explain myself better. Maybe complicating things, who knows.

 

"Constantly telling us what you think we should do, that we're over ambitious and should just give in, that there's a good chance we'll fail because we're "slow" or you're impatient and bored of the wait is constantly on our minds and voiced everywhere, as is. "

Constantly... A couple of posts,  c'mon...

Like Devs care what I think or what others think...

In case any of them would read my words, what could happen? Nothing.

They already know if I am "wrong" or "right", actually even without reading my post.

Never said bored and I am not impatient. I wrote almost every time I don't care about ETAs, I can wait, no problem about that.

That doesn't make TIS fast, right? That's my point.

 

I guess it would be better if they were all praise, but most of the times even the ones complaining for something here are polite and often show they like the game anyway, I am sure it could be way way worse.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

You've not seen that we've had months and months of people complaining at us that the game isn't done yet. There's not a single mondoid now without a comment of 'NPCs?' or 'Animations?' on it. It's morale destroying just for the mod team (Hello!), let alone the devs working on the coalface.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Marco1 said:

Let me add, that if the Dev. team stopped work on PZ tomorrow, it would be sad news and I would feel robbed.

For the rest I can say the same thing: Devs, please don't stop. I love this game, appreciate your hard work and look forward to playing Build 36 and beyond.

 

 

@Butter Bot

 

 

I'd like to remind you, all this because I said something like  "maybe they could just do something smaller they can probably handle in less time and better", what an insult!

 

"Might never be finished" is just like a good excuse for failure, playing defence, useful/necessary from a legal standpoint, like "read terms and conditions", but doesn't sound well, does it?

And I am not even complaining, just talking about (slow) development in a topic about future updates, even saying nobody told me it was supposed to be fast, what a world.

 

Macro1,

 

Yes, bitching.

 

Yes, my entertainment is MY only standard for whether or not a game was a good buy. Unless you are really bizarre, the reason you buy a game is to be entertained when you play it. The more you are entertained, the better the buy. Replay ability is a phrase that is tossed around a great deal for RPGs such as this one. Do you not already feel that Build 36 has replay-ability? Or are you so bored that you spend hundreds of hours playing something you hate? Of course you aren't. you enjoy playing it. You just want the developers to wave some magic wand and have it finished.

 

From a value standpoint, Build 35, or even Build 34 already IS about a $10 game, which is what you paid. This seems to hit somewhere around your point that you don't understand why they are still working on it. The only thing is, you confuse your point by saying that you would feel "robbed". The terms involved in getting an EA game are rather clear about "... may never be completed." Now yes, I'm bringing up the terms of the disclaimer, which you don't seem to appreciate, but only to remind you that you have already gotten what you paid for ... EARLY ACCESS. Apparently, you have a problem with how early your access is, but it is exactly what you paid for and thus, you have not been "robbed".

 

If anything, you should be pleased, even grateful that the TIS team continues to work on this project to make improvements. Whether or not you think they have any significance, the additions to build 35 are very nice. Nutrition alone is amazing. But they have also doubled the number of skills that can be improved through books, and added the mechanics and objects for a whole new skill: metalworking. Another map has also been added, too. How can you not realize that Build 35 added significant game-play? It's because you are busy bitching. Maybe, like me, you were hoping for Anims in this release. Well, TIS decided that rather than delay the release date further by continuing to work the bugs out, they would remove it from the build and give us the remainder of the build, thus putting off Anims for later.

 

As for me, I have mixed feelings. I'm really enjoying what build 35 added to the game, but I could have waited longer for the release in hopes of getting the Anims. You should, however be thrilled - they boxed it and shipped it as-is so that you would have something to play. They are also sharing some of their development toys with the moders so that new mods can be made. That should also please you - so much more for your $10. Yet, you are still bitching.

 

Are you a really short, rubbery, green guy with long orange hair? 'Cuz you are starting to sound a lot like a troll.

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7 hours ago, kirrus said:

 

You've not seen that we've had months and months of people complaining at us that the game isn't done yet. There's not a single mondoid now without a comment of 'NPCs?' or 'Animations?' on it. It's morale destroying just for the mod team (Hello!), let alone the devs working on the coalface.

 

 

I don't think that it's fair to always complain about such things.

 

I really don't care about what's missing in an update or what was promised and didn't make it in the update. At this moment, I have 170+ hours on my GOG-clock for PZ and I'm far away from feeling bored. I just can't wait to see all the new stuff in Build 35 (when it's released to non-steam platforms) and I'm really excited about it.

 

Let me add something about the discussion: I spend 13,79€ on PZ and played it 170 hours (and I'm far away from being done with it). I have really no reason whatsoever to complain about. TIS is slow in development? I couldn't care less. A few features are in delay? I really don't care. I just focus on the progress they make and I'm absolutely satisfied with that.

 

And guys, I play PZ with my cousin and for a few weeks now, with my girlfriend too. We all love this game and will keep on playing it. 

 

Maybe this is kind of off-topic (and maybe you want to call me stupid because I ask), but: what is 'ETA'? I read it all the time and have absolutely no clue!

 

Keep on with this great work!

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1 hour ago, styxger said:

 I just can't wait to see all the new stuff in Build 35 (when it's released to non-steam platforms) and I'm really excited about it.

They're already working on this, so hopefully it's not too far a way. Not sure how X-Mas will interfere with it as it has to be inspected and uploaded by GoG once it arrives on their end.  :)

 

ETA is "estimated time of arrival." Effectively a bullshit guess for when you think something is done -- it's meant to be non-binding.

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11 hours ago, Blasted_Taco said:

Hiring new staff wont fix the development speed.

Never said it would, or at least not necessarily would. I even wrote team size means nothing, so I know that. Ok for the rest before that.

 

Quote

So what would be a small feature or update?

Right now to be finished, the game needs NPCs, hunting, the map with Louisville or al least Fort Knox and vehicles.

[...]

As far as i can tell,  we are in a place where there is no smaller thing, [...], we just need to accept that the features will take a long ass time to get completed, i know in my heart that the animations wont get into the game until February or something like that and it hurts, but there is nothing you or i can do to speed up the process.

 

Let me say that this game, in my opinion, needs a little more than those "small" and "big" things you wrote to be a finished product, but if you meant what Devs said PZ would need to reach the 1.0 point, that's ok, I agree with you.

Once again, they can take all the time they need for Animations, to name the first one coming to mind, it's perfectly understandable. For me, no problem about that.

My first point was more general. Like for example we know they decided to go for the new animations (for reasons that I completely understand) but they could have said "ok, just a step back and do what we can do with this, we'll finish in a way more reasonable time and probably do a better job" and they actually still can say that. 

I cannot tell if they're doing for the money or any other reason, maybe just pride, no idea, anyway...What I said makes sense if you believe time is an issue. I think it's safe to say Devs' "pace" overshadows all the good things they are doing, at some point that affects their reputation (they may or may not care about this, not my problem) and, probably, credibility. And leads to negative reviews.

It's not what I want, but at this point I am not sure dragging this too long is the best possible option, even when done with the best intentions. That was what I was trying to discuss with my first post and tried to explain with the other ones.

Like you I'd prefer to see a complete game for sure, no doubts about that.

 

Quote

Project Zomboid was out even when early access was a thing,  back then was a tech demo out and the promise of "If you liked what you saw, you will get this and more if you buy our game", it was a promise between customer and dev and it still stands, even after the robbery, the bomb squad shit and everything that has happen to TIS, they still push forward to finish the damn game.

You just need to accept that TIS wont be any faster than it was right now, but its faster than it was way before, it cant get worse than this and the final product can only get better.

I accept that, not that not accepting it would change things, but I am perfectly fine with that. Actually I respect the fact after all this time they're still trying to deliver and often bother to post and explain.

Once again, that won't make me look at things differently or go in denial mode like some other users.

 

 

@kirrus

I wasn't complaining, but, ok, I understand your point.

I think there's way worse in life than some people complaining about NPCs or Animations, but it's easy to understand when you're working and probably doing your best that isn't exactly what you want to hear.

Thanks for your reply.

 

@Erkinwine
Not matter how hard you try to make me look like a troll, it won't happen and now that we're at it...Grow up, it's for your own good.

 

9 hours ago, Erkinwine said:

Yes, bitching.

 

Yes, my entertainment is MY only standard for whether or not a game was a good buy.

[...]

You just want the developers to wave some magic wand and have it finished.

That's why I can't take you seriously, sorry.

 

Quote

Unless you are really bizarre, the reason you buy a game is to be entertained when you play it. The more you are entertained, the better the buy. Replay ability is a phrase that is tossed around a great deal for RPGs such as this one. Do you not already feel that Build 36 has replay-ability? Or are you so bored that you spend hundreds of hours playing something you hate? Of course you aren't. you enjoy playing it.

 

So something becomes good/efficient/worth because you like/enjoy it? Your logic is astounding. 

I like what they're trying to achieve with Project Zomboid and I play it to see in what direction they're going, to test new features and helping looking for bugs.

Replay-ability? Who's even thinking or talking about this? And by the way, I am not sure what it means in an incomplete game.

Bored? Why? Who's bored and when did I say that? Oh, wait, no no, please don't write to me anymore, after this I had enough.

 

 

Quote

From a value standpoint, Build 35, or even Build 34 already IS about a $10 game, which is what you paid. This seems to hit somewhere around your point that you don't understand why they are still working on it. The only thing is, you confuse your point by saying that you would feel "robbed". The terms involved in getting an EA game are rather clear about "... may never be completed." Now yes, I'm bringing up the terms of the disclaimer, which you don't seem to appreciate, but only to remind you that you have already gotten what you paid for ... EARLY ACCESS. Apparently, you have a problem with how early your access is, but it is exactly what you paid for and thus, you have not been "robbed".

 

Hey, stop there Sherlock. I said robbed because you said tomorrow and the sense was it would have never meant they never had the intention to finish their game, but only take the money.

I could have used "fooled" but sounded a bit too strong and wrong considering money involved, but it's ok in the sense they said they would deliver. And once again, you said: TOMORROW.

The rest you read into that is your imagination, not my words.

Yes, with Early Access you buy that game as it is at the moment you're buying, but I am not complaining about the game as it is now, it's incomplete and I know very well, actually I am not even complaining, I was only talking about the current situation of development and about things to come, so...what do you want from me?

 

 

Quote

If anything, you should be pleased, even grateful that the TIS team continues to work on this project to make improvements.

I am, for sure I don't need you to tell me this.

 

Quote

 How can you not realize that Build 35 added significant game-play? It's because you are busy bitching. Maybe, like me, you were hoping for Anims in this release.

 

Yes, bitching right, because you say so. This game is early access for a reason and no matter what you say, I can still play to test a feature without having lots of fun like you're having.

Considering at the moment there's no late game (not even mid) and after 3-4 weeks in-game game's not throwing anything at you anymore and you're set to grinding part until you reach the stats to test all existing features (or new features if they exist), I am not sure what you're talking about, I mean you could watch for hours a white wall and call it good value because it's free entertainment, your choice or stare at the popsicle stick for hours remembering how good that popsicle was, looks like something you would enjoy as well. But please don't drag me into your idea of entertainment.

After the first 2 in-game months stage (but it could take a little more if you take it slow)  you just have to "work" to test new and old features, for bugs, in a game that is essentially over, unless you give yourself goals and it becomes more a grinding quest (which is totally fine in this kind of game) to check the features while enjoying your farm.

Yes, that's what I paid for, if that was the "final version" with no further updates, probably you would have been the only one buying it anyway 3 years ago, because you seem to be that kind of person.

Because, after all, this is the funny part, I was/am the one trusting TIS  could deliver, while you're just one guy playing with an incomplete game, just because you have some time to waste.

At this point I was just saying after 6 years and 3 from steam release, I would understand them looking for a way out, maybe with a step back giving up some of the ideas they had for PZ in order to move on and be more productive...

Not that it's what I want, but it's a point where this would be understandable and that's all my post was about.

And unlike you I couldn't care less about when Animations will be released...

 

Quote

 They are also sharing some of their development toys with the moders so that new mods can be made. That should also please you - so much more for your $10. Yet, you are still bitching.

 

I consider the whole $10/hours of fun really stupid, but feel free to value things for their cost and the enjoyment you take from them instead of talking about what they're supposed to do, from your words I assume that cucumber must have been your best purchase ever!

Now, please, leave me alone!

 

Hope I explained myself, now please don't quote me anymore, if possible.

For sure the last thing I want is to write another line in this thread!

 

@kirrus and @Butter Bot

Thanks for your time.

Edited by Marco1

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I've done hardware/software dev work for the DoD and supported other early access games, like Kerbal Space Program (bought before they came to Steam) and 7DaysToDie and I can say this about my concerns of dev speed:

 

 Part of the concern for burn-out,  both mine and the dev team's.   I don't like the idea of being burnt out on a game before it really hits its stride.   New additions help with that.   In all fairness, TIS is not Squad or the Fun Pimps,  but...  look at what happened with KSP.  They pushed out of EA too early and then bled devs until they finally made it to 1.2, which should have been 1.0.  Now their team is down to almost 1/10th the size it was before.   Maybe they'll keep doing good,  maybe not.   With 7D, I've pretty much hit the point where I've lost faith that the devs are going in the right direction.   I don't have that problem with PZ, not yet anyway. 

 

 Either way, I hope they keep doing a damn good job for pushed content.   This game has a lot of potential.  I'll just have to keep my impatience from getting in the way. 

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The Boxingdoid blog post (which doesn't have it's own forum topic) suggests that Build 35 was uploaded to GOG prior to Christmas, but GOG is still showing v34 for me. Is Build 35 for GOG still pending or should it be available now?

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