Zombie AI

[Moose65]

It needs some serious help :/ I've come back to mess around after being away for quite awhile, and right now my new character is on day 2 with 167 kills, favorite weapon, unarmed. Zero kills done with any weapons.

 

I'm not bragging, but the biggest reason I can do this silliness is because rope-a-dope is still a thing in this game. For those who don't understand what it is, you simply creep around the edges of a group, wait till one faces you, and take them out 2~3 at a time. They will literally shove other zombies out of the way to go after you, and all the while their 5+ friends will sit there idle.

 

The grouping mechanic was a good step in the right direction, but right now what their lacking is a group aggro. If one turns to go after you, their moans should draw the attention of their comrades. I couldn't wipe out 20 or 30 zombies at my leisure if I'm having to box 5+ at a time.

[Zombadger]

That is true. Also the predictable way they shuffle around to the sides to try and flanks. Often, I'll just walk off with the flanker and snuff'm around a corner.

 

What gets me, is I still occasionally get got by a zombie who ignores all detection rules while hiding in a nearby tree only to leap out and bite you when you pass close by after ignoring all the battle bleeding and 'HEY YOU!' going on five yards away. You cant fool me game, I walked around that tree a dozen times in this scuffle. You made that zombie hide in there and ignore everything but my proximity on purpose.

 

I mean, it works. It gets me more often than hubris. It's just a little immersion breaking- and immersion is how I spent a hundred bajillion hours in this game.

[jamesorbe0]

6 hours ago, Moose65 said:

It needs some serious help :/ I've come back to mess around after being away for quite awhile, and right now my new character is on day 2 with 167 kills, favorite weapon, unarmed. Zero kills done with any weapons.

 

I'm not bragging, but the biggest reason I can do this silliness is because rope-a-dope is still a thing in this game. For those who don't understand what it is, you simply creep around the edges of a group, wait till one faces you, and take them out 2~3 at a time. They will literally shove other zombies out of the way to go after you, and all the while their 5+ friends will sit there idle.

 

The grouping mechanic was a good step in the right direction, but right now what their lacking is a group aggro. If one turns to go after you, their moans should draw the attention of their comrades. I couldn't wipe out 20 or 30 zombies at my leisure if I'm having to box 5+ at a time.

Cant do that on 6 months later mode whenever i kill one 10-30 zombies coming right at you and if you fight a non stop flow of zombies until you die

[Zombadger]

16 minutes ago, jamesorbe0 said:

Cant do that on 6 months later mode whenever i kill one 10-30 zombies coming right at you and if you fight a non stop flow of zombies until you die

Are you picking Hunter + Graceful? Probably not, by the sounds of it.

Lets face it, you would not have made it 6 months in without being stealthy. Try again but spec'd for avoiding the zombies. You will have much better luck rounding off just a couple at a time.

 

The sad, unavoidable fact of the matter is that zombies are attrition. You cannot fight attrition forever. A Handy Repairman with a Screwdriver and some duct tape can hold it off for a respectable amount of time though. :]

[jamesorbe0]

3 minutes ago, Zombadger said:

Are you picking Hunter + Graceful? Probably not, by the sounds of it.

Lets face it, you would not have made it 6 months in without being stealthy. Try again but spec'd for avoiding the zombies. You will have much better luck rounding off just a couple at a time.

 

The sad, unavoidable fact of the matter is that zombies are attrition. You cannot fight attrition forever. A Handy Repairman with a Screwdriver and some duct tape can hold it off for a respectable amount of time though. :]

So i think the trait should be change and some zombie tweaks

[Zorak]

Tbh the best way would be to mix old and new zombie AI. Just like in TWD: roamers and lurkers.

 

[Moose65]

14 minutes ago, Zorak said:

Tbh the best way would be to mix old and new zombie AI. Just like in TWD: roamers and lurkers.

 

Speaking of that, I haven't seen very many crawlers lately. There definitely needs to be more of them, because foot stomping them was always risky without circling them.

 

1 hour ago, jamesorbe0 said:

Cant do that on 6 months later mode whenever i kill one 10-30 zombies coming right at you and if you fight a non stop flow of zombies until you die

I was playing survival, but survival is way too easy atm. Point is I shouldn't be able to kill 160+ zombies bare handed that easily because their AI is a bit silly. Zombies shoving other zombies away without even a reaction because your aggroing them from the pack 1~2 at a time shouldn't work that way. They already rally together, so why can't they rally on attack as well? If a zombie starts moving your way, doing a "attack" moan, all of the other zombies in the group should automatically turn to spot you as well and aggro.

 

2 hours ago, Zombadger said:

That is true. Also the predictable way they shuffle around to the sides to try and flanks. Often, I'll just walk off with the flanker and snuff'm around a corner.

 

What gets me, is I still occasionally get got by a zombie who ignores all detection rules while hiding in a nearby tree only to leap out and bite you when you pass close by after ignoring all the battle bleeding and 'HEY YOU!' going on five yards away. You cant fool me game, I walked around that tree a dozen times in this scuffle. You made that zombie hide in there and ignore everything but my proximity on purpose.

 

I mean, it works. It gets me more often than hubris. It's just a little immersion breaking- and immersion is how I spent a hundred bajillion hours in this game.

I'll admit, I've been a bit careless with zombies because they honestly don't seem threatening, letting a couple of attack animations actually get off because I let my character get excessively exhausted. Thick skin does a wondrous job at preventing bites. I haven't ran into that issue yet with a zombie biting me like that, but what I have ran into (and why I refuse to take the perk anymore) is getting bit from behind because of Hard of Hearing. That back perception is pretty invaluable for avoiding bites.

 

I've essentially already beat the game again on this playthrough, making it to the cabin west of Westpoint, ending at 170 barehanded kills and completely walling off the lake where I can fish for an eternity and not die. I even had a helicopter stay above the house for 2 days, and not one zombie. Water needs to change, cause I shouldn't be able to wall off zombies so effectively with a lake, and feel completely safe by it.

[Moose65]

1 hour ago, Zombadger said:

Are you picking Hunter + Graceful? Probably not, by the sounds of it.

Lets face it, you would not have made it 6 months in without being stealthy. Try again but spec'd for avoiding the zombies. You will have much better luck rounding off just a couple at a time.

 

The sad, unavoidable fact of the matter is that zombies are attrition. You cannot fight attrition forever. A Handy Repairman with a Screwdriver and some duct tape can hold it off for a respectable amount of time though. :]

I on purposely take all the detection negatives (clumsy, conspicuous) because it's still ridiculously easy to sneak around groups, as well as doing it in a way to take on a hoard of 12+ by roping in 1~3 at a time. I'll have to disagree on not being able to fight them forever, at least on survival, as I had over 100 barehanded kills before day 1 was over. I even cleared out a boarded up zombie house without weapons. I had pretty much fully cleared a path from Westpoint to my cabin by the lake, because zombies are more of a resource at this point than a threat (gotta get those ripped sheets from somewhere for those log walls ). I will say I was pretty disappointed in loot though. I found 1 pistol out of all that mess, no other weapons, 1 plastic bag, and not a single watch (can zombies even spawn with a watch?).

 

Edit: I also wanted to add that my strength was at default, as I didn't take any strength perks (or negatives), making this even sillier :S. I did take athletic though for the endurance.

[Zombadger]

20 minutes ago, Moose65 said:

I on purposely take all the detection negatives (clumsy, conspicuous) because it's still ridiculously easy to sneak around groups, as well as doing it in a way to take on a hoard of 12+ by roping in 1~3 at a time. I'll have to disagree on not being able to fight them forever, at least on survival, as I had over 100 barehanded kills before day 1 was over. I even cleared out a boarded up zombie house without weapons. I had pretty much fully cleared a path from Westpoint to my cabin by the lake, because zombies are more of a resource at this point than a threat (gotta get those ripped sheets from somewhere for those log walls ). I will say I was pretty disappointed in loot though. I found 1 pistol out of all that mess, no other weapons, 1 plastic bag, and not a single watch (can zombies even spawn with a watch?).

 

Edit: I also wanted to add that my strength was at default, as I didn't take any strength perks (or negatives), making this even sillier :S. I did take athletic though for the endurance.

Right on. =) But you have set yourself up to win in that scenario. There will always be a way to 'game the game'. Even if you choose to live in the heart of the city, any city, you can always knock out the stairs and plant a rooftop garden whilst eating rats and birds caught on other roofs. What I am driving awkwardly towards is that the problem with people thinking that the game is too easy is because they have worked out the path of least resistance. Not the games fault that players can be very clever with meta-knowledge. If you place yourself where there aren't any zombies, you wont encounter zombies. If you resign yourself to eating only fish, you belly will be boringly full with consistency. If you make a minecraftian fortress to keep safe, you will stay safe.

 

I agree on the zombie AI needing some work though.

GG on the noisy character build. I like to take overweight and out of shape to limit what I can get done in a day.

[Ocelot]

46 minutes ago, Moose65 said:

and not a single watch (can zombies even spawn with a watch?).

 

I can confirm they spawn watches.

 

I'd like to see better horde mechanics, like how most of the posts above say how a zed that runs towards you should attract others in the group. I actually thought that was in the game, and remember seeing a mondoid about it ages ago. I guess the issue would be that if it was too sensitive then they would all react to each others movements and then all just form into a single mega herd.

 

And horde migration would be great, where you would never be safe as packs or huge hordes would move around the map.

[Geras]

Yep, we need what @Moose65 suggested + random zombies.

[trombonaught]

7 hours ago, Ocelot said:

 

I can confirm they spawn watches.

 

I'd like to see better horde mechanics, like how most of the posts above say how a zed that runs towards you should attract others in the group. I actually thought that was in the game, and remember seeing a mondoid about it ages ago. I guess the issue would be that if it was too sensitive then they would all react to each others movements and then all just form into a single mega herd.

 

And horde migration would be great, where you would never be safe as packs or huge hordes would move around the map.

 

Single mega herd sounds good to me!!!

[Moose65]

5 hours ago, trombonaught said:

 

Single mega herd sounds good to me!!!

I know I might be contradicting myself, but I would also like some counterplay as well when and if we ever get roaming herds that randomly show up.  I think that if you make sure to remain perfectly quite, turn off all the lights, and make no sound at all, that you should stand a very good chance of them bypassing you. Currently, zombie AI has them randomly smashing stuff along their pathway (even to the point of them stopping to break a window instead of continuing to pursue you). I know its been talked about before, but I really wish this was NOT the default behavior for zombies. Yes, they should stop to smash stuff if it is the most DIRECT path to you, or if you were making noise and they were trying to get inside to find the source.

 

While on this topic, I also think that they shouldn't be so dumb as to smash a window when an open door is literally 2 feet next to them. They should take the path of least resistance, within reason. If a door is open right next to them, then stop smashing the window. Now if you left the backdoor open, they shouldn't have knowledge of that to follow you inside and should be smashing that window in front of them.

[trombonaught]

8 hours ago, Moose65 said:

I know I might be contradicting myself, but I would also like some counterplay as well when and if we ever get roaming herds that randomly show up.  I think that if you make sure to remain perfectly quite, turn off all the lights, and make no sound at all, that you should stand a very good chance of them bypassing you. Currently, zombie AI has them randomly smashing stuff along their pathway (even to the point of them stopping to break a window instead of continuing to pursue you). I know its been talked about before, but I really wish this was NOT the default behavior for zombies. Yes, they should stop to smash stuff if it is the most DIRECT path to you, or if you were making noise and they were trying to get inside to find the source.

 

While on this topic, I also think that they shouldn't be so dumb as to smash a window when an open door is literally 2 feet next to them. They should take the path of least resistance, within reason. If a door is open right next to them, then stop smashing the window. Now if you left the backdoor open, they shouldn't have knowledge of that to follow you inside and should be smashing that window in front of them.

 

Not sure that "random" herds is the way to go... I think a herd dropped into the map would be out of style, unless maybe they only spawned at the map edge.

 

FYI if you haven't tried already I think 80% of the pathing is fixed by upping their navigation in sandbox. The spotting thing might be pretty achiveable too with the poor vision option.

[Zombadger]

12 minutes ago, trombonaught said:

 

Not sure that "random" herds is the way to go... I think a herd dropped into the map would be out of style, unless maybe they only spawned at the map edge.

 

FYI if you haven't tried already I think 80% of the pathing is fixed by upping their navigation in sandbox. The spotting thing might be pretty achiveable too with the poor vision option.

I wish I could. But if I make my game a sandbox mode it will remind me every time I load it that I am playing a non canonical fairy make-believe land.

 

Did that change? I thought all the zombies spawned at the edge of the map and wandered in in shivers and waves. -\Q/- Agree on the no random herds thing though. It should nearly always be an event. Maybe seem random if you aren't listening in on the right radios or slept through that NPC driving through town with the stereo thumping. But not for no good reason. (im looking at you, TWD)

[Moose65]

3 hours ago, trombonaught said:

 

Not sure that "random" herds is the way to go... I think a herd dropped into the map would be out of style, unless maybe they only spawned at the map edge.

 

FYI if you haven't tried already I think 80% of the pathing is fixed by upping their navigation in sandbox. The spotting thing might be pretty achiveable too with the poor vision option.

i believe its already been discussed that having them spawn in from the edge of the map isn't really practical. Honestly, its not really needed, because are you going to sit there on the edge of the map, wait to watch a herd to spawn in, and then follow them around to see if they go to your safehouse? No, your not going to do that. So whats the difference if they spawn in from the edge of the map, or in an empty cell that players haven't visited in awhile.

 

Right now I believe they already spawn in empty cells that you haven't been to in a few days, and our shuffled from existing cells to other cells by the system. Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

3 hours ago, Zombadger said:

I wish I could. But if I make my game a sandbox mode it will remind me every time I load it that I am playing a non canonical fairy make-believe land.

 

^ This right here. By default, zombies should function as expected, which means a window along their pathing shouldn't be a tastier option than my survivor. Also, senselessly destroying every door and window in their path isn't realistic either. If noise is being made in there, or if lights are left on, fine, I can believe that. If the house is completely quite then they should path around the house rather than trying to break a door to get through the shortest path.

[EnigmaGrey]

Don't like the idea of individual zombies calling the horde down on people. That's getting into L4D terriroty -- zombies should already be reacting to the sounds other zombies make in the current game. They have a chance not hear or follow, though, just as they do when interacting with the player.

 

The pathfinding code is pretty simple:

 

Zombies smash objects that are in their way --  if they're smashing a window or door, it's not because they're attracted to it, but because it intersects with their chosen path.  Anything breakable gets the same treatment.

 

They're not choosing between you and the door or window. If they're trying to go through a door or window it's becuase

a) they randomly chose to lurch in that direction

b) they heard a noise past the breakable object

c) if they see something fleshy they want

 

Houses make noise  all the time in reality (every dawn and dusk the siding on my house crinkles and pops). Windows reflect light and, being vinyl or wood, expansion as well. There's no reason houses should be unmolested if zombies react to as basic a sound as footsteps.

 

That said, I've advocated before that zombies should be able to "get bored" of thumping random objects if there's no other stimulus than themselves. Instead, a simple fix to solve the issue for people adamant about zombies attacking objects in their wander state was added to Sandbox. Perhaps it'll be addressed in the future.

[Moose65]

2 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Don't like the idea of individual zombies calling the horde down on people. That's getting into L4D terriroty -- zombies should already be reacting to the sounds other zombies make in the current game. They have a chance not hear or follow, though, just as they do when interacting with the player.

Right now though the game is too easy, and I really think they should attract attention to nearby zeds if one goes into "attack" mode. Right now, you can get one to look at you from within a horde by on purposely moving into its LoS while the others have their back turned, and they will go so far as to even shove other zeds out of the way as they walk through their group to go after you. I really think a zombie doing an attack growl should at the very least make them turn to look at the direction the zombie is going, giving the group a chance to aggro on you. To me it just seems weird that I can pull individual zombies consistently out of a group of 12+ and not bring the wrath of the whole group upon myself because they don't seem to react at all to other zombies. I think it would be fair for the "growl" to have a certain radius that makes other nearby zombies turn to look at the direction the growler is going, making it "highly" likely that they now spot you and will aggro as well, instead of making them automatically aggro you.

 

I think we need some more variety though, as I very seldom if ever spot crawlers or zombies playing dead nowadays. That would definitely make taking groups on more difficult. I know it would be further down the line, but I would eventually like to see water not be such an effective barrier for zombies, allowing them to possibly lurk unseen in the water.

 

6 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

The pathfinding code is pretty simple:

 

Zombies smash objects that are in their way --  if they're smashing a window or door, it's not because they're attracted to it, but because it intersects with their chosen path.  Anything breakable gets the same treatment.

 

They're not choosing between you and the door or window. If they're trying to go through a door or window it's becuase

a) they randomly chose to lurch in that direction

b) they heard a noise past the breakable object

c) if they see something fleshy they want

I know I've seen it once in Westpoint with a zombie that was in pursuit of me stop to smash a window along the sidewalk instead of continuing to pursue me. I'll see if I can't reliably reproduce that behavior in game when I have some time to mess around with zombies.

 

8 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Houses make noise  all the time in reality (every dawn and dusk the siding on my house crinkles and pops). Windows reflect light and, being vinyl or wood, expansion as well. There's no reason houses should be unmolested if zombies react to as basic a sound as footsteps.

 

That said, I've advocated before that zombies should be able to "get bored" of thumping random objects if there's no other stimulus than themselves. Instead, a simple fix to solve the issue for people adamant about zombies attacking objects in their wander state was added to Sandbox. Perhaps it'll be addressed in the future.

I can somewhat agree with this logic. I do think zombies should have a "chance" of getting bored though like you said, especially if their solo. If there's a group, I think that chance should decrease probably to nil though since they would all be pounding on the door/window, making substantial noise.

[Geras]

+1 for part of zombie population to be crawlers and dormant zombies by default.

[explorator]

You can change the settings for zombie hearing range and many other things in Sandbox. Try it out one time, you can make zombies much more dangerous.