Jars and lids...

[hormel]

On 9/11/2016 at 9:56 AM, Unghin said:

Я так полагаю, что американская культура сельского хозяйства ориентирована на сбыт. Сейчас я лишь могу судить поверхностно: вряд ли у них есть такая традиция - снабжать свои частные дома большими огородами, или, живя в квартире, содержать, дачу.

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Этим летом созерцал уничтожение двух бочек протухших арбузов с песком - консервационный передоз.

 

Ну, я из Америки и могу судить, что есть у нас такая культура (хотя правда, что дачи нету). Банки практически в каждом доме, и даже если не все (еххх как сказать) использует, чтбы сделать на впрок уверяю, 90% людей по крайней мере пьют их тех стаканом

 

sorry, my Russian is a little rough atm- I even got back from Ukraine not that long ago, yeeeesh- but my point stands- they are ubiquitous 

Edited September 13, 2016 by hormel

[GOGOblin]

The jars must be 100% clean to make a years-lasting unperishable, so we can assume that there are a lot of jars and lids, but only few clean enogh..  Oh whom am I fooling,  its just PZ with its own special logic..

[Unghin]

3 hours ago, hormel said:

Ну, я из Америки и могу судить, что есть у нас такая культура (хотя правда, что дачи нету). Банки практически в каждом доме, и даже если не все (еххх как сказать) использует, чтбы сделать на впрок уверяю, 90% людей по крайней мере пьют их тех стаканом

Вот это новости! Ждем значит в следующих билдах больше банок, крышек и закаточную машинку "Мэри".

[EnigmaGrey]

2 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

The jars must be 100% clean to make a years-lasting unperishable, so we can assume that there are a lot of jars and lids, but only few clean enogh..  Oh whom am I fooling,  its just PZ with its own special logic..

Canning jars are rare because . . .

a) there are a good number that spawn at the mall, encouraging you to travel to West Point; and,

b) they enable you to survive the winter, but are not meant to be the sole way to do so; we had hoped they'd be used in tandem with scavenging and rationing.

 

There's nothing about cleanliness of the jars here. Though if you want your canned goods to last any amount of time, they need to be boiled. Just like canning lids in the US, jars and their lids ("lug" type) are also meant to be one use, as decreed by the USDA, popular authors, .etc. Bail-type lids (popular in France) also aren't used in the US. Lids with reusable gaskets are something that's only seemed to become popular recently, thus doesn't fit with PZ's timeline.

 

I agree over-all with this thread, though. I'd like to see a lot more lids and jars spawn, not to mention ingredients for canning. In the end, the above goals just don't seem to be fun. It'd be nice to have lids and jars be usable at your risk with a higher rate of failure than proper canning jars, proportional to the number of uses. Having the risk of the jar / lid fail while being cooked would also be nice. This would be both more realistic and allow us to have more canning ingredients be found, ensuring players know it's actually in the game.

[GOGOblin]

2 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Canning jars are rare because . .

The topic was about not how rare they are, but how few they are. I think Keshash wanted to see huge packs of lids - even rare - so once found they will provide you with a big ammount of lids.

 

I think more traditional and ancient ways of preserving food should be implemented;  boiling, canning - oh crap, thats Babooshka-Sims.  Vegetables could be dried, salted (open wooden barrels, shitton of bacterii and mold, but somehow its ok). What I really want to see in jars are butter and meat, not shitty greens.   

[EnigmaGrey]

Both rarity and scarcity are covered in the OP's post. Having packs of 30 lids wouldn't be much of a help if you only found two or three jars, would it?

 

Canning low-acid foods requires pressure canning, something even rarer than traditional canning in the US. I'm not saying it shouldn't exist, it's just exceedingly uncommon.

 

Other methods of preservation will probably be added at some point.

[GOGOblin]

19 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Having packs of 30 lids wouldn't be much of a help if you only found two or three jars, would it?

I meant both

"pack of jar lids. A simple thing, ~30 jars tied up with tape"

I guess jars should be a lesser problem because you can find (better say SHOULD be able to find) preserves in homes and get jars, while lids are disposable.

[Keshash]

Well, I'm kinda confused now. The words "jar" and "lid" look slightly the same, so I may said something wrong. I meant this "thing", not tied-up bottles. Mainly, because I never saw 1 lid (cap, etc) being sold. Mostly packs of them. Because, you can re-use bottles, but not lids.

[GOGOblin]

1 minute ago, Keshash said:

Well, I'm kinda confused now. The words "jar" and "lid" look slightly the same, so I may said something wrong. I meant this "thing", not tied-up bottles. Mainly, because I never saw 1 lid (cap, etc) being sold. Mostly packs of them. Because, you can re-use bottles, but not lids.

Well, jars are pots-bottles - "whiskey in the jar", lids seem to be caps, so you are speaking mostly about lids, I guess )

[hormel]

3 hours ago, Keshash said:

Well, I'm kinda confused now. The words "jar" and "lid" look slightly the same, so I may said something wrong. I meant this "thing", not tied-up bottles. Mainly, because I never saw 1 lid (cap, etc) being sold. Mostly packs of them. Because, you can re-use bottles, but not lids.

 

Yeah, you will often find stacks of lids and collars for sale together. Like these guys:

 

 

 

 

 

More often than not you will just find stacks of jars AND lids sold together inside any major grocery store. Like this:

 

 

 

 

 

There are way more "big box" department stores in the U.S. than in Eastern Europe, so you don't need to find a specialty store, rather just go to any Wal-mart, Target, Safeway, Cost-co etc. and they will have stacks of these sitting in a corner somewhere.

 

 

 

[Magic Mark]

9 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Canning jars are rare because . . .

a) there are a good number that spawn at the mall, encouraging you to travel to West Point; and,

b) they enable you to survive the winter, but are not meant to be the sole way to do so; we had hoped they'd be used in tandem with scavenging and rationing.

 

There's nothing about cleanliness of the jars here. Though if you want your canned goods to last any amount of time, they need to be boiled. Just like canning lids in the US, jars and their lids ("lug" type) are also meant to be one use, as decreed by the USDA, popular authors, .etc. Bail-type lids (popular in France) also aren't used in the US. Lids with reusable gaskets are something that's only seemed to become popular recently, thus doesn't fit with PZ's timeline.

 

I agree over-all with this thread, though. I'd like to see a lot more lids and jars spawn, not to mention ingredients for canning. In the end, the above goals just don't seem to be fun. It'd be nice to have lids and jars be usable at your risk with a higher rate of failure than proper canning jars, proportional to the number of uses. Having the risk of the jar / lid fail while being cooked would also be nice. This would be both more realistic and allow us to have more canning ingredients be found, ensuring players know it's actually in the game.

 

I agree with this post but I have some doubt in this:

 

Quote

Lids with reusable gaskets are something that's only seemed to become popular recently, thus doesn't fit with PZ's timeline.

 

Pickling was far more necessary before the 90s, reusable canning lids have been around since the 80s (source: Tattler Reusable Canning Lids), and widely used especially in a rural farm-heavy setting (which PZ takes place).

 

Pickling/jarring is no longer a 'must-do' for farming thanks to modern 21st century advances in preservatives and cold preservation. That being said, it is still commonly done in local farms that aren't producing for something like a chain, hence the fact that I could walk to the safeway a block over from me and still see pallets of them (jars/lids) in an aisle in the back.

 

As a niche activity I don't see a lot new surrounding it other than people with a fancy for zombie apocalypse survival, which wouldn't be enough on it's own to give jarring a significant new "niche". Farmers markets and people who 'grow their own' have been keeping it in style as it is one of the best ways to sell to people who still buy locally.

 

Point being, wouldn't jarring (with reusable lids) be more popular in the 90's than it is today?

 

---

 

A suitable compromise would be to create separate loot lists for "out in the country market" and "in the city (Louisville) grocery store", and just have one more in common in one than the other. Presumably the "more advanced" city wouldn't have the farms close by and it would just make sense that one area gets a higher spawn rate than the other. That way people can see the realism in it (you would have a bigger market selling to local farms anyways) and have more of a motive to move to the country when the "big city life" comes in.

 

Also, the reusable gaskets, from what I remember, used to be "limited use". I was taught to make tic-marks on them, and when it got to 10 (used 10 times) the seal was no longer safe. Of course I used to believe it could go for more in a survival situation but limiting the amount of times reusable lids get used is also an option.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Kim Jong Un

[EnigmaGrey]

No? High cost of reusable lids, the stigma attached to them via organizations like the USDA, and the plentiful nature of traditional two-piece lids should mean they weren't widely adopted, but it's not as though I was around at that that time. Some days I might feel that old, but I'm not, quite.

This seems to suggest that though Tattlers were constructed in the 70s, it wasn't until the late 90s that they started selling: http://commonsensehome.com/comparison-of-jarden-and-tattler-lids/

 

(Didn't really expect that when I hastily googled it just now. *Eats lunch.*

[Magic Mark]

46 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

No? High cost of reusable lids, the stigma attached to them via organizations like the USDA, and the plentiful nature of traditional two-piece lids should mean they weren't widely adopted, but it's not as though I was around at that that time. Some days I might feel that old, but I'm not, quite.

This seems to suggest that though Tattlers were constructed in the 70s, it wasn't until the late 90s that they started selling: http://commonsensehome.com/comparison-of-jarden-and-tattler-lids/

 

(Didn't really expect that when I hastily googled it just now. *Eats lunch.*

 

You are probably right about Tattlers (although they aren't the only company, yet are the ones that come up first when you google the subject).

 

However the 90s were ultimately a simpler time, and the concern over what the department of agriculture thought wasn't as much of a concern for controversy as it is currently. I remember using them, but you are right about the 2-piece lids being more popular (especially when the jar was being sold and not used for the farmer's sake).

Edited September 13, 2016 by Kim Jong Un

[GOGOblin]

Holy Glock, what a stout approach 

Guys, cmon, those jars are for taste, not for really preserving callories or vitamines. Surviving will demand more cereals, potatoes and fat rather than vegs in vinnegar. If PZ had vodka - thats another talk 

[Magic Mark]

Meh. Preserving produce is cool though.

[TheWraithPlayer]

Another idea for preserving I have is salting meat. Never tried it before IRL but want to try at some point.