Add common sense as spice

[GOGOblin]

44 minutes ago, CaptKaspar said:

None of them knew to add flour, yeast, water, and salt

Dear TISforum, today I learned: humanity is doomed  (at least that part CaptKaspar belongs to).

Impressive, indeed. May be they were just pretending they are interested? : )  

But I still hope people know, that flour is edible.

[Kajin]

3 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

Dear TISforum, today I learned: humanity is doomed  (at least that part CaptKaspar belongs to).

Impressive, indeed. May be they were just pretending they are interested? : )  

But I still hope people know, that flour is edible.

Probably more like they knew that flour and water equals bread, but good bread also requires other things to make it palatable. Otherwise it ends up flat and super tough.

[CaptKaspar]

4 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

Dear TISforum, today I learned: humanity is doomed  (at least that part CaptKaspar belongs to).

Impressive, indeed. May be they were just pretending they are interested? : )  

But I still hope people know, that flour is edible.

 

Just means at the end of days I have skills that I can barter with whomever is left

 

The discussion was started because we were all complaining about how we didn't have any good bakeries nearby. That our only local bakery made cardboard and claimed it was bread. And our local grocery stores had mediocre bread at best. Led me to mentioning how we just started making our own bread. They were like 'you can do that easily, and its good?' Yep, 4 ingredients and you have yourself some mighty good fresh bread (the dutch oven is also clutch).

 

I doubt they were feigning ignorance on how to make bread in an attempt to be socially polite. Suppose we can't rule that out though.

 

 

[Demonic_Kat]

23 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Perhaps we should go the  opposite direction, @Demonic_Kat: A generic "food" recipe that just takes anything edible and let's the player craft a generic item from it. That way, we need not worry about learning recipes or being locked out of things because of the skill tree.

 

If this was implemented, would the bread being made be slicable (I made a new word)? Would it be able to be added to other recipes? Would it take something that was meant to be desired and make it into "meh"? Would this give points into your cooking skill tree; I would find it odd for something that required no skill would give skill points.

 

I feel implementing recipes for making/repairing/creating items gave a game play + to PZ. I'm not trying to make a snowball issue about bread, but for example how hard is it to restring a fishing rod? We have also already had the discussion about running generators. Why do we have a skill tree for foraging where we find logs at higher levels? We've got a carpentry thread arguing that we don't need points in the skill to make anything.

 

I think the simulation of the accrual of knowledge/ingenuity defined by the skill bar and obtained recipe books is the most balanced, in regards to game play,  way to portray a condensed version of 'real life'.

 

Recipes also create a unique play through. E.g. one play through you pick Park Ranger, you can make all the traps, and you have meat until you die. You find the bread recipe and make meat sammiches in your fortress for 6 months. Another play through you can't find the recipe, you're forced to search houses until you walk into a bathroom and get mauled by 300 zombies (you just had to have that recipe didn't you?!)

 

On a final point, I do believe that flour should be able to be eaten raw with a severe happiness debuff. I don't know if anyone here has tried to eat raw flour, but if you have please let us know your experience!

 

[Kajin]

I remember downing a handful of it as a kid. It was not a pleasant experience, as I recall.

[GOGOblin]

10 hours ago, Kajin said:

flour and water equals bread, but good bread also requires other things

Yep. So, a compromise: conceal the recipe of proper bread you are going to enjoy, leave some primitive recipe to utilize flour as a valuable high carb food.

 

6 hours ago, Demonic_Kat said:

I think the simulation of the accrual of knowledge/ingenuity defined by the skill bar and obtained recipe books is the most balanced, in regards to game play,  way to portray a condensed version of 'real life'.

Can't agree. If you SO MUCH want to keep concealed recipes, they should be sorted accurately, so simpliest be easier to find while most sophisticated must be found in specific places or storages, not just "magazine with a bomb recipe" in every garage. I like implemented "nerd's homes" idea of some random heaps of electronics in some houses. I guess those "dedicaded" houses could also contain journals and blueprints of some special recipes.  

 

6 hours ago, Demonic_Kat said:

I don't know if anyone here has tried to eat raw flour, but if you have please let us know your experience!

 

I'll try it this evening and report here : ) . I guess it will provoke thurst, but can't foresee any awful taste or any other troubles. Also will try to make pasta and mazoth out of only flour and water.. without oil or eggs. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by GOGOblin

[Demonic_Kat]

1 hour ago, GOGOblin said:

snip

I just want to make it very clear that I do not condone actually trying to eat (or do) things that shouldn't be eaten (or done) for the sake of a game. If you're not 18 (or a legal adult if outside of the US) yet, please ask your parents before you do such a thing.

[GOGOblin]

10 minutes ago, Demonic_Kat said:

I just want to make it very clear that I do not condone actually trying to eat (or do) things that shouldn't be eaten (or done) for the sake of a game. If you're not 18 (or a legal adult if outside of the US) yet, please ask your parents before you do such a thing.

LMAO : )

I'm 32 and a parent myself. But you are right, doing strange things and eating strange things because of PZ discussions is not always a bright idea. But eating flour is ok, I hope : ))

Edited July 11, 2016 by GOGOblin

[RobertJohnson]

It's a common joke with my wife... Eating flour...

 

Please tell me what it taste!

[Demonic_Kat]

I had a new idea!

 

While I stand by my statement earlier, I think that these changes (common sense carpentry, cooking, can opening, etc.) could be fun in the "6 Months Later" scenario. The accrual of this knowledge over 6 months makes sense, it gives more enticement to play the mode, and it doesn't take away from the overall difficulty of the game.

[GOGOblin]

8 hours ago, Demonic_Kat said:

this knowledge over 6 months makes sense

Oh, indeed. The player must have better skills, pure natural selection.

 

12 hours ago, RobertJohnson said:

Please tell me what it taste!

Apart from joking  about what you and your wife are joking about, here is my report:

 

first google: eating flour

http://www.thedoctorstv.com/articles/2765-addicted-to-eating-flour 

 

And now the main story:

0 - PLAIN FLOUR

Tastes ok. Like eating dust, a gulp of water could help indeed, but nevermind. Mood penalty : slightly unpleasant, only if you are not starving, otherwise - its ok. On a scale of survival cuisine I give it 5/10 because it tastes dull and sticks to teeth and throat. 

 

1 - SIMPLE PASTA

Only water and flour, no oil, no eggs.

Its good. Without salt it tastes dull, but if you are surviving - this pasta could be called delicious. Pleasant to chew, smooth. Served hot with black pepper and salt - very good, add EVOO or butter or cheese and it is perfect.  Survival cuisine rating: 8/10. Needs salt and pepper to be really nice. 

 

2 - SIMPLE BREAD

Only water and flour, no yeast, no salt or sugar.

Smells nice, but is too hard. Cannot enjoy this "bread" until hungry.  Very dense and clammy crumb. Taste is dull, but not unpleasant, adding salt could help a lot. Survival cuisine rating: 5/10 because its hard. Although no mood penalty should be applied, this is survival food and it is nutritious, easy to store and easy to pick and eat during.. surviving,

 

3 - YEAST BREAD

I tried my best NOT. No recipe, no cooking experience, just common sense : )

Found some instant yeast in a fridge, mixed it with flour water and sugar (yes, yeast dough needs to be turned on with some sweets, warmth and gentle but zealous use of hands - thats my contribution to those wife-jokes), added salt, mixed until it is almost not sticky and left close to a stove for an hour. Then put the ball of dough into cooking pot (with some flour on its bottom) and sent it to an oven, thats all. NEEDS SUGAR, INGAME RECIPE IS NOT ACCURATE.

The bread smells nice, has hard (a bit too hard and thick) but delicious crust, crumb is almost like normal bread, but a little too dense.  Yes, this is bread.

Survival cuisine rating: 7/10, 8/10 if done well. Really nice food but requires some effort (and knowledge).

Do we really need a recipe? I guess yes, otherwise it will be something like 2. If yeast has instructions on it's pack the recipe is allmost useless. But making a proper bread, even this-report-tier bread, is only a matter of hunger. Simple bread (2) is pretty sufficient for survival.

 

Conclusion:

1) Flour is edible and its ok.

2) Simple water+flour recipes provide you with food, good food (especially pasta) if you are surviving.

3) Yeast bread needs a recipe to be learnt, but a) the recipe is simple and must be easy to find b) proper selfmade bread must boost mood, otherwise it doesnt worth the effort

Edited July 12, 2016 by GOGOblin

[GOGOblin]

 

On 11.07.2016 at 0:36 AM, CaptKaspar said:

Yep, 4 ingredients and you have yourself some mighty good fresh bread (the dutch oven is also clutch).

Its a bit offtop., but what does a dutch oven add to the process?

Edited July 12, 2016 by GOGOblin

[critical jim]

One of my co-op friends who hadn't played in about 8 months joined my server for a bit. He died about 10 times in the hour or so that he played. One of them had me laughing uncontrollably: he accidentally threw himself through a plate glass window, slit his own throat, and bled out as he tried to figure out the health screen. I remember thinking: how the shit did this dude outlive all these zombies? Ideally, you'd already be good at the game the first time you play. Because your dude, for some reason, managed to be among the select few survivors. My point is, unless you're spending the points to be a chef or something, why the heck should they not make it more difficult for you? I've never once made bread in this game, but I often collect all but one or 2 magazines. How bout a different suggestion: a higher spawn and more locations, such as every single gas station, book stores, etc. for all these rare magazines.

[CaptKaspar]

On 7/12/2016 at 4:16 AM, GOGOblin said:

 

Its a bit offtop., but what does a dutch oven add to the process?

 

Gives the bread something to form into. Once the dough expands to the edges of the dutch oven it then rises so you don't have as flat and dense of a bread. It also helps provides a nice crispy crust while maintaining a soft interior.

[MyTJ]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎08 at 7:01 AM, Teesee said:

I should've mentioned "don't quote me on that", this is not the exact answer I was given (it was on the old bug tracker) . And TIS' support is very nice and helpful, it's just that one answer among many good ones. (that's the right time to thank the support team, thank you people!) 

 

I got a positive answer on a bug report, very helpfull.

 

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎09 at 2:34 PM, CaptKaspar said:

 

The biggest problem with common sense is that its not very common...

 

For a good portion of my professional life I worked as an instructor in a highly technical and dangerous field. My clients were typically higher level engineers, upper corporate management, doctors, etc. I was always amazed at the overall lack of what I always considered 'common sense'. The foolish things that these typically higher trained/more 'intelligent' individuals would do on a regular basis was a constant shock to me. Oh what it did to my blood pressure!!!

 

I'm still amazed at how much foolishness people can throw around too, mostly things people wrote (I work in law).  Just last week someone was talking to me about a special paint to cover possible nicotine from vendors that used to be smokers.  Common sense is also moderation and knowing when to leave it be or find an alternative (such as in that case, cleaning the walls).

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎09 at 7:34 PM, Demonic_Kat said:

You spelled retarded wrong. Also I find the use of that kind of language is out of line.

 

So do I, again... moderation.

 

Back on topic

This topic seemed to have derailed on one example and I'll be guilty to add my own experience to it.  I've added water to flour before and what I got was.... glue.  I'd never had tought to eat that thing but then again... I wasn't starving and I did not cook it.  Now I know how to cook, but I've yet to make bread (beside bannana bread and some such, and at that time I was following a recipe... later I did apple bread and overdid the cinamon because I was experimenting).  I wager that without a recipe, I could have done something nutritious but unpleasant to eat... so on that, I'm with you GOGOblin.

 

As for the rest

 

1.1 - Have you tried renaming your food?  Not sure if further ingredient throw that off, but you could try something like "Stew 1", "Stew 2", etc. This has the added bonus of avoiding a list of similar food item... not that I bother with that (I just hover my mouse pointer over it).

 

1.2 - I agree with you... but would need to cause thirst.

 

1.3 - I agree with you, especialy since salt is an optional "spice-type ingredient".  This is obviously for player-made soup... not the canned stuff.  But even the canned stuff hold significant amount of water (usualy around 80ish% of its content, once diluted according to directions or taste). For that matter, why do we eat canned soup without diluding it?  I'd put that reasoning further : same hold for stew (although a good stew end up with much less then 80% water content).

 

1.4 - I disagree with you.  I remember my old microwave when I was a kid (circa 1990) that could cook things as long as no metal was higher then an inch from the bottom.  I agree with you on the fire part (they are either activated or unactivated even if some time remains on the timer)... BUT, you're asking for a completely diferent set of rule for a single cooking appliance.  If I was a dev my answer would be : got more important things to implement then that.

 

1.5 - I agree with you, but you need to factor some possible loss of food too.  Again, this is a game and a single opener is not that hard to get and keep in your kitchen part of your base.

 

1.6 - I know nothing about that so I won't pretend I do.

 

1.7 - Interesting suggestion.  Wasn't there ginger as well?  More spices in general would be nice.

 

2.1 - I disagree.  Most home may have one or two packets of seeds for a "planed garden" or even because they used to have potted plants or a garden.

 

2.2 - I don't know about that, only been playing sandbox.  Since sandbox default to "rare" loot, it kind of make sense that the loot variation is not that high (50% of next to nothing is still next to nothing).

 

3.1 - Don't know about that.  Only time I saw fire was intentional because I knew I was doomed and wanted to see my base go out with a bang.  I was disapointed considering the quantity of propane tank, gas tank, even whisky... that I had stored away (hint : tens of containers in total).

 

3.2 - I don't know about that, but from what I've read, gas version has been removed.  I'm a bit sad about that one.

 

3.3 - I must agree with you for the wood part.  I've had some friend that used some specific essence of wood for taste... so it's possible.  Not sure about making coal though.

 

3.4 - I agree.

 

4.1 - I agree in part.  The table would look very bad with little skill.  Things like chairs would be near impossible. (note : my father, ingeneer by trade, has been woodworking as a past time for decades now and is now making it is pre-retirement trade... table yes... chair : no, why?  too much work to justify a carpenter to do it when you can buy/find some in every store or so)

 

4.2 - It's not more the moving... it's the chance of breaking it.  More ridiculous?  Try moving 3 fridges at once. But it's a game.  One that has it's own weight mechanics and possibilities.  Some of them will restrict you, others can be exploited.

 

4.3 - That's where people got side tracked... why is it the last one?  Was it a case of TL/DR?

 

Z.1 - Sadly, I'm not skilled enough to know about that.

 

Z.2 - Hum, are you talking about respawn rate?  It can be set to 0 in sandbox.

 

Z.3 - Again, sandbox settings allow you to tweak numbers just right.

 

My 2 cents

None of those are game breaking and warrant the Bug tag.

 

Also... moderation, you don't need to win the argument to get the idea accross. People will read it, or some of it.  They will care, or not.  Some will add to it or against it.

 

I understand you passion about this game and your desire to make it better.  But some things will be, or won't be. Some of those are up to us (community), some of those are dictated by other factors such as simplification (for fun purposes... but also time and money).

 

I once was an over enthousiast game concept designer myself... never finished one of them (too much work for a single person with my high standards).  I've since came across the story of Kingdom of Amalur and where a fellow (inexperienced) game enthousiast could lead a project... It was a lesson in humility for me.

[GOGOblin]

1 hour ago, MyTJ said:

Again, this is a game and a single opener is not that hard to get and keep in your kitchen part of your base.

It is like using a toilet paper ONLY. Ofc it is good for what it is used for, but it is not the only way to solve the problem. So the tin opener. Its surviving, why carry useless thing in my backpack?

PZ is the game where you can die from starvation, sitting in a closet full of sugar,  bags of flour and canned food.

 

2 hours ago, MyTJ said:

2.1 - I disagree.  Most home may have one or two packets of seeds for a "planed garden" or even because they used to have potted plants or a garden.

I found no gardens in Muldraugh, no single greenhouse, no potato fields, no broccoly nor carrots : ) Flowers do not count. 

 

2 hours ago, MyTJ said:

4.1 - I agree in part.  The table would look very bad with little skill. 

If you do not want to sell it - who cares how it looks?  We are not going to impress Z's, right? Ofc it takes a lot of time and practice to make furniture that looks nice, but actually it is not that much needed.

 

2 hours ago, MyTJ said:

4.3 - That's where people got side tracked... why is it the last one?  Was it a case of TL/DR?

Making dough is simple to check IRL, so I made my experimental cooking to proove PZ logic is not perfect here, got no time and planks to make a chair, sorry : )

[Kajin]

I made a chicken coop a couple years ago for some ungrateful chickens that never used it. I think I managed a pretty decent job of it despite my having very little experience with actually putting nails to wood, though it came out looking like crap.

 

Also, I can think of plenty of reasons to carry a can opener with you.  Opening a can without one is difficult, time consuming, you could hurt yourself trying, and a can opener is small enough to fit in your pocket so how can you not find space for it in that giant hiking bag? Might as well grab one and bring it anyway. I agree that you should still be able to open a can without them, but not without any number of downsides (smashing it on the ground takes forever and exhausts you, smashing it with a rock takes a fair amount of time and you risk bashing your fingers for pain and ripped skin that could get infected, stabbing it with a knife takes a small amount of time, damages the knife and you risk cutting yourself badly, etc.)

[LeoIvanov]

On 12.07.2016 at 9:33 AM, GOGOblin said:

Oh, indeed. The player must have better skills, pure natural selection.

 

Apart from joking  about what you and your wife are joking about, here is my report:

 

first google: eating flour

http://www.thedoctorstv.com/articles/2765-addicted-to-eating-flour 

 

And now the main story:

SNIPPEST SNIPS

Wow.. You, sir - you did your homework. Hats off to the flour god.

[GOGOblin]

3 hours ago, Kajin said:

Opening a can without one is difficult, time consuming, you could hurt yourself trying, and a can opener is small enough to fit in your pocket so how can you not find space for it in that giant hiking bag?

Have you seen that ingame monster-opener? Weight=0.6 

I've found smething like ingame opener:

Very comfortable, but heavy. 0.6 kilo (or pound?) and bulky - not bro.

The old opener I got used to is here:

 

Lighter, smaller, relyable as Kalashnikov, can be used to cut something else. But still not bro.

And the last one is a "surviver's" opener (actually military):

Very small, simple, have a couple of these midgets in your backpack and in a pocket (if you eat so much tins) - thats bro.

 

And in game we have only that super heavy not-bro - it is not actually a problem. And no alternative ways to open cans - thats the problem.

3 hours ago, Kajin said:

I agree that you should still be able to open a can without them, but not without any number of downsides (smashing it on the ground takes forever and exhausts you, smashing it with a rock takes a fair amount of time and you risk bashing your fingers for pain and ripped skin that could get infected, stabbing it with a knife takes a small amount of time, damages the knife and you risk cutting yourself badly, etc.)

Yes, this could be nice. Its hard to open a metal can without a proper instrument (but possible):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFK6T1ib_zI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4b9nkzm_zU

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by GOGOblin

[GOGOblin]

2 hours ago, LeoIvanov said:

You, sir - you did your homework

Thank you, comrade!

Will make a simple chair if I will manage to find some spare planks.

[critical jim]

Despite the many creative ways I've opened cans in my life (the possibilities are infinite), I think having fewer options simply fits well with the game's charm. A multi-tool doesn't seem out of the question. Should be a super super rare drop, with spawn chances in police station, hardware store, gun shop, auto repair shop. Like along the same lines of rarity as hydrocraft's "fire suit". It's ultra light, and can double as a melee weapon. Even after its reached 0% durability, it still functions perfectly as a can opener, pliers/wrench (if there is ever a use) and screwdriver. With the new anim and clothing layers etc, you could even hang it off your belt or off a carabiner, effectively making it almost weightless, while still having more on-the-go accessibility than something in your backpack. But the odds of you finding one are lower than the odds of the mall not lagging me the fuck out 

[Keshash]

1 hour ago, GOGOblin said:

or pound

Just to say, game weight is neither kilogramm or pounds - it's some kind of united weight and size.  That way it fits both backpacks' capacity and characters' ability to lift weight.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Keshash

[GOGOblin]

Some additions to the first post

 

Disassembling furniture:

D.1) How does it happen, that after disassembling a chair - using a saw - I gain NOTHING at all? If I do not manage to get proper planks and no metal parts  - at least a chair is a FUEL.  How about adding some "alternative twigs" to represent crushing furniture to small pieces?

D.2) It would be nice to remove "nails drop" from plain chairs - its usually wood and glue and some tissue. We all love nails, but in a simple chair there is almost no metal at all.

 

Welding:

W.1) Single propane for welding iron items - Its magic!  I don't care about realism when we speak about Minecraft or DontStarve, but here in PZ this all looks strange. What is the reason to make welding in this fashion? There is a shitton of "cold" metalworking, why weld what can be clinched, bolted (and screwed)?  

[GOGOblin]

The time has come for another useless experiment: Orkish chair.

The purpose of the experiment is to check if we really need a skill and a saw to make a chair? A chair to sleep on.

First of all, I have no skill in makng any furniture, so carpentry skill = 0.  (no "handy" perk too, sadly).

The Idea was to make an orkish ugly simple chair using only an axe and nails. I used a saw for speed, but it IS NOT really needed.

The plan was to make a structure of two A-shape triangles, I had no time and good wood so I used what I got: shitty logs and branches.

The first stage:

Looks terrible, I know, so it is.

 

Second stage:

"Daddy wtf are you doing instead of playing with me?"

 

Final result:

It still lacks one stick on the right part of the "seat".

 

 

Test drive:

Surprisingly comfortable!  Have to move or add some stick to the back, but this agly heap of wood is quite enough to sleep (if really tired). 

 

It took me 1 hour, 20 nails (different sizes, 10 big, 10 smaller, which could be replaced with wire or even twine), 4 big sticks and two medium for As, one medium stick for frontal support and 4 sticks for seat and back. The structure is really robust and realyable due to triangles, but heavy because of huge sticks (actually logs). If I used hazelnut wood and had more time to think it over the result could be not so orkish.

 

So, conclusion:  no carpentry skill is needed to make a wooden chair (well ok, skill 1 to make it not so ugly). Logs and brunches, an axe and 20 nails (or 10 nails + wire) are needed.

I think it should be possible in PZ to make outdoorsman furniture: no planks, orkish design, quality heavyily depends on skill. 

The ammound of nails used should also depend on skill, I wasted 2 for no reason but my lack of skill.

 

Cheers!

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by GOGOblin

[GOGOblin]

Today we taste some roots. Actually burdock, according to this we can not find it in PZ Kentucky, but I guess there are a lot of other nice plants to forage there.

I've tasted the burdock roots myself, they are good! Fresh smell like parsley roots, but when cooked the flovour disapears. Boiled roots are like potatoes with a flavour of fresh corn or white asparagus. fried - like.. potatoes too, but more dense. Here some pics (sorry for a "survival" pot ):

I kept roots in water for 2 hours, then boiled for 30-40 minutes, then one half boiled more, the other half fried. Pretty nice food even without spices or onion. 

 

 

PZ foraging is a great thing, but berries - the easiest to get food in PZ - are not so nice IRL: need a lot of time to gather, not that nutritious. Mushrooms are also not very good food, their proteins and other valuable substances are locked in chitin we cant digest.

I suggest adding roots as a forager's source of food. They need a trowel/shovel to get (not always), but reward is good.