Add common sense as spice

[GOGOblin]

I've found some "logic" bugs in PZ,  the things, that OUGHT to be fixed.  Tried to post this to bugtracker (after lemmy101 stated logic bugs to be count as bugs), and was told to post to "suggestions".

I marked what I call logic (B)ugs apart from (S)uggestions to state the priority.

1) Cooking and food

 

1.1)  (S) UI makes dishes you cook hop hither and thither in player's inventory. As it is sorted by name the item becomes Bawl -> Leek salad -> Vegetable salad and so moves somewhere down the list.
1.2)  (B) Sugar is a high carb food, could be extremely valuable, taking in consideration new nutrition system. BUT YOU CANT EAT SUGAR in PZ. 
1.3)  (B) Soups do not lower thurst. They include a pot of water, the player is supposed to "drink" them, but they do not affect thurst at all.
1.4)  (B) Microwaves cannot be used to cook with a metal pot or frying-pan, also they should not be treated as a fire source if not turned off.
1.5)  (S) Tins need no opener to be opened. Goddamn, you can use a knife, an axe, asphalt paving, even your bare hands (videoproofs on demand) to open a tin. Increased time and a chance to wound hand can beuse for balance.

1.6) (S) Mushrooms are hard to digest. They contain a lot of protein, but also chitin that prevents digistation. Roots (some of them, ofc, like arctium and reedmace ) contain a lot of starch and other carbohydrates and thus are more valuable for a surviver. So I think reducing the mushrooms value and adding roots will make surviving in wildlife more realistic.

1.7) (S) Wild garlic should be used as food, at least as a spice
 
2) Loot generation

 

2.1)  (B) Seeds, seeds everywhere. There are no kitchen gardens in Muldraugh, but oddly there is a big chance to find seeds packets all around the town, in every kitchen, every crate.. I think farms should have a lot of seeds, while town houses should not (until Muldraugh gets some gardens and greenhoses  ) 
2.2)  (S) Different scenarios(initial infection, two weeks later, year later). The amount and type of items must differ A LOT if other survivers are supposed to harvest loot for a year before the player arrives.

 

3) Fire and stuff

 

3.1)  (B) Fire spreads like the floor (concrete, asphalt, gravel) is poured with gasoline, even during the rain. Also fire somehow gets out from a campfire, while IRL its much more safe.
3.2)  (S) "Molotov" bottle made of whiskey.. Thats bullshit. A "molotv cocktail" bottle must include something more flamable than even a cask-strength booze. (also a proper "molotov" must include a handful of matches for relyable ignition (not a piece of tissue attached to a bottle neck)
3.3)  (B) Charcoal BBQ doesn't consume wood as fuel. I think it should or at least making charcoal must be implemented (hello TerraFirmaCraft  ). Also no paper sheets, twigs and rags can be use as a firestarter, which is odd. 

3.4) (B) Smoking a cigarette doesn't require a firesource.  I count it as a bug because "molotovs" require a lighter. Also would be nice to light a cigarette from fire(especially burning Z) or BBQ
 
4) Skills and recipes

 

4.1)  (S) Carpentry professionals who cannot make a simple table or a bed - that's bullshit.  Everyone can make a table, spending more nails and time if nor skilled.
4.2)  (S) Moving microwaves and fridges needs a skill.. what?
4.3)  (S) Dough crafting needs a recipe to be learned from a magazine.. what? Implying character is an idiot - there are instructions on both yeast and flour packs I guess..
 
 
Z) Zombies

 

Z.1) (B) "Fast zombies" move in a funny manner while waiting for a player, making some useless dashes from time to time. I think fast Z's should sprint only toward enemy (or noise), not all the time.
Z.2) (B) It is impossible to set Z's to "no resurection" mode. What if I want to make them more fragile and human-like? 
Z.3) (S) Too many Z's. Just look at Muldraugh population in 1993   This ammount of Z's makes them annoying. Take a look: http://imgur.com/wvpbKfo  something has changed since a year ago..
 
p.s: Water
Roofs provide you literally TONS OF WATER during rain, lots of water without any reason to build raincollectors - just use pots, buckets and barrels (there are barrels in PZ!). Its raining often in Muldraugh (at least according to the game), so collecting water must be an easy task. Well, this may count as a balancing issue, but I think collecting water must be changed.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by GOGOblin
added 1.6, 1.7 added 3.4

[Teesee]

I remember posting a bug about soup not reducing thirst. I still can't get over the answer I got which was something like "there's salt in soup so it doesn't reduce thirst". So I'm with you on that one

[EnigmaGrey]

14 minutes ago, Teesee said:

I remember posting a bug about soup not reducing thirst. I still can't get over the answer I got which was something like "there's salt in soup so it doesn't reduce thirst". So I'm with you on that one

You don't think the ingredients in soup should impact the feeling of thirst? E.g condensed and canned soups tend to be quiet salty.

 

Not a bug anyway: no food items quench thirst in the game. That'd have to b echanged.

[GOGOblin]

Quote

"there's salt in soup so it doesn't reduce thirst". 

TIS support got style..

Not mentioning that the player cooks a soup himself and knows exactly if there is salt in it..

 

1 hour ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Not a bug anyway: no food items quench thirst in the game. That'd have to b echanged.

Oranges and watermelons do (and maybe tomatoes afair). 

Edited July 8, 2016 by GOGOblin

[Teesee]

I should've mentioned "don't quote me on that", this is not the exact answer I was given (it was on the old bug tracker) . And TIS' support is very nice and helpful, it's just that one answer among many good ones. (that's the right time to thank the support team, thank you people!) 

[critical jim]

I'm not sure of the local flora in Kentucky, but I know morel mushrooms can cause digestive distress if you eat them raw, too many or pair with alcohol. That would be a neat moodle, no other hints of what you've done wrong. But dealing with dehydration from having diarrhea would be fitting, and well in line with the games aesthetic. Your posts name reminded me of something that would be super neat: a hollowed out book named "common sense". Looks like other books on the shelf, but acts as a container. You can find jewelry, money or perhaps a small revolver and/or rounds.

[Demonic_Kat]

I have to say that making bread should require a recipe of sorts, regardless of where it's found. I've made much bread in my life, but I have to have the recipe every time. It's simply something not many people memorize. Also not all yeast packets have bread recipes on the back.

[Demonic_Kat]

odd double post

Edited July 11, 2016 by Demonic_Kat

[blindcoder]

Also, not every yeast is good for everything. It's why I have about 4 different strands at home at any one time.

[martingee]

[GOGOblin]

10 hours ago, critical jim said:

dealing with dehydration from having diarrhea

Yes, shitting out water is very dangerous if you do not have enogh of drinking water,  diarrhea can be deadly if you are  surviving in some shithole that lacks water.  But I have no idea how this could be implemented in PZ, because shitting and hygiene are the last things gamedevs use to add to a game (and this is good). 

 

Demonic_Kat,  blindcoder

Making a proper tasty bread and making a bread to survive are two different makings of bread.  Dying from hunger while sitting on a bag of flour is even larger pile of bullshit, then dying from dehydration while eating soups.. Making a simple matzoth-like crackers without a recipe could solve the problem. Also in russian army there was a popular "ramrod bread": primitve flour and salt dough wrapped around a ramrod baked on a fire, was extremely hard due to salt, but also completely unperishable.

 

[EnigmaGrey]

So, in other words, you want multiple types of "bread" or the ability to use a bag of flour some other way / consume it raw. Why that shouldn't require some degree of learning and must be immediate knowledge of the character is still beyond me.

[blindcoder]

@GOGOblin

Yeah, here it's called "Stockbrot" or "Dauerkeks", bread-like dough made from flour, salt and water, baked until dry, drier, driest and then some more. I guess in a pinch, everyone would be able to cook this up.

But making a good loaf of bread is a different beast entirely. Without a recipe, I usually fail at it

[GOGOblin]

59 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

So, in other words, you want multiple types of "bread" or the ability to use a bag of flour some other way / consume it raw. Why that shouldn't require some degree of learning and must be immediate knowledge of the character is still beyond me.

Yes, you can consume it raw (like pasta and other cereals) it is not poisonous, you know. Sugar too : ) You can make primitive pasta (shitty food, but still food). You can make matzoth if you have a kinda oven.. The only thing you can't do with a bag of flour is to starve, lol.

 

>immediate knowledge of the character is still beyond me

 

Characters are not 5 y.o. outistic children. Even if you suppose people who play PZ to be kinda retarded there is now Forest Gump perk in PZ for now..

43 minutes ago, blindcoder said:

making a good loaf of bread

Wll make you happier, not really more satiated..

Edited July 9, 2016 by GOGOblin

[EnigmaGrey]

Quote

Characters are not 5 y.o. outistic children. Even if you suppose people who play PZ to be kinda retarded there is now Forest Gump perk in PZ for now..

You seem to have an oddly low opinion of those whom might know as much as you. Is that why it seems so wrong to play a character that doesn't realize they can make a passable variation of "bread" out of moisture and a bag of flour?

[GOGOblin]

33 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

doesn't realize they can make a passable variation of "bread" out of moisture and a bag of flour?

Well, making a proper bread is not an easy task, thats right. But making something to eat, using flour and water and whatever else is quite possible.. A character who cannot make any food  using flour should be called retrded, I guess. Once again: characters are adults. born in 60-70s, not nowdays american schoolchildren.

[Kuren]

The longer I've been on the PZ forums, the more I've realized how many "common sense" things are not common sense for most people. It's actually quite saddening

Luckily, if you disagree with the approach to character skills that's been based on this realization that most people lack common sense you can download mods and whatnot to give you a few more points at character creation. Ultimately giving you more skills, know-how and common sense

That being said, I do wish there were a few more skills and alternative recipes for things. There was a big discussion not too long back on here about opening cans and things like that. Even if these new recipes are locked behind traits I agree that it would be nice to have them.

Here's a link to the Can Opening Topic in case you're interested:

And here's a few mods that can add things like a cooking trait or more points:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=656352219 - Adds cooking trait
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=569730342 - Adds a +22 point trait that raises strength and fitness
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=712974736 - Adds 20 points to start with (I haven't tested this one)

I'm sure there are more like this out there but these are just the couple I know of and what I found with a quick workshop search for "points"

[CaptKaspar]

1 hour ago, Kuren said:

The longer I've been on the PZ forums, the more I've realized how many "common sense" things are not common sense for most people. It's actually quite saddening
 

 

The biggest problem with common sense is that its not very common...

 

For a good portion of my professional life I worked as an instructor in a highly technical and dangerous field. My clients were typically higher level engineers, upper corporate management, doctors, etc. I was always amazed at the overall lack of what I always considered 'common sense'. The foolish things that these typically higher trained/more 'intelligent' individuals would do on a regular basis was a constant shock to me. Oh what it did to my blood pressure!!!

Edited July 9, 2016 by CaptKaspar

[Demonic_Kat]

11 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

Well, making a proper bread is not an easy task, thats right. But making something to eat, using flour and water and whatever else is quite possible.. A character who cannot make any food  using flour should be called retrded, I guess. Once again: characters are adults. born in 60-70s, not nowdays american schoolchildren.

You spelled retarded wrong. Also I find the use of that kind of language is out of line.

 

Not everyone knows how to cook. The only recipe I know that uses just flour and water is a simple dumpling, and I cook quite a bit. I also LEARNED this recipe from SOMEONE ELSE. I didn't just materialize it from thin air. Now I've never been starving, so I don't know what I'd do in that situation, but to say that someone who is normal has mental handicaps simply because they didn't or couldn't think of a specific thing to do with specific substances they may have NEVER had to do anything with, is imho a simple thing to say.

 

What it sounds like to me is that you want your out of game knowledge to be in game knowledge. This seems to be an epidemic in the carpentry section as well. At some point we have to consider the game play. How easy do you want this game? How TEDIOUS do you want this game?

[EnigmaGrey]

Perhaps we should go the  opposite direction, @Demonic_Kat: A generic "food" recipe that just takes anything edible and let's the player craft a generic item from it. That way, we need not worry about learning recipes or being locked out of things because of the skill tree.

 

[Kajin]

25 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Perhaps we should go the  opposite direction, @Demonic_Kat: A generic "food" recipe that just takes anything edible and let's the player craft a generic item from it. That way, we need not worry about learning recipes or being locked out of things because of the skill tree.

 

I made a suggestion like this for bread a long time ago. Just treat any bread recipe like you would a regular soup, stew or stir fry recipe. Add water to flour and bake that and it's simple bread. Not very great but it can take the edge off your hunger. If you want to make it richer you add various other things like butter, milk, eggs, sugar, or what have you to the recipe. You want something other than flat bread or biscuits you add yeast for a loaf of plain bread.

 

If you want anything more complex than that (gravy, dumplings, cake, anything else that wouldn't be common knowledge to someone that has never cooked before) then you'll have to learn the recipe from a cookbook. Otherwise you just get simple bread types like what I mentioned above.

[GOGOblin]

9 hours ago, Demonic_Kat said:

Not everyone knows how to cook. The only recipe I know that uses just flour and water is a simple dumpling, and I cook quite a bit. I also LEARNED this recipe from SOMEONE ELSE. I didn't just materialize it from thin air. Now I've never been starving, so I don't know what I'd do in that situation, but to say that someone who is normal has mental handicaps simply because they didn't or couldn't think of a specific thing to do with specific substances they may have NEVER had to do anything with, is imho a simple thing to say.

Characters are adults, goddamnit, born in 60s. Yes SOMEONE ELSE teaches you something, characters have 20-30-40 years to be taught what flour is. I don't insist that recipe a smoking bomb is obvious, ofc it usually needs to be learnt, but things like food are pretty much obvious. I do not even insist that bread doesn't need a recipe to be learnt, but I insist that making SOME FOOD using flour doesn't need any recipe.

 

9 hours ago, Demonic_Kat said:

you want your out of game knowledge to be in game knowledge

You do the same thing, opposite, but same. But your approach is a bit offensive agains some players, mine is optimistic.

 

9 hours ago, Demonic_Kat said:

This seems to be an epidemic in the carpentry section as well.

Epidemic of common sense - cure them with flamethrowers!

[EnigmaGrey]

Yeah, you keep repeating that crap about age, but it's meaningless as far as characters in-game are concerned.  Glad you have such faith in your (your parent's?) generation to know most things, though. Others don't.

[GOGOblin]

2 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Yeah, you keep repeating that crap about age, but it's meaningless as far as characters in-game are concerned.  Glad you have such faith in your (your parent's?) generation to know most things, though. Others don't.

JUST GO OUTSIDE AND ASK 10 ADULTS WHAT FLOUR IS FOR AND HOW TO MAKE DOUGH, PRETEND TO BE SOME SOCIAL RESEARCH OR WHATEVER

RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE

[CaptKaspar]

7 hours ago, GOGOblin said:

JUST GO OUTSIDE AND ASK 10 ADULTS WHAT FLOUR IS FOR AND HOW TO MAKE DOUGH, PRETEND TO BE SOME SOCIAL RESEARCH OR WHATEVER

RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE

 

Funny enough; without any previous knowledge that this discussion was happening in this direction, I was at a cookout last night and I got to talking about how my wife makes a simple 4 ingredient bread in a dutch oven. The other 6-7 adults in the conversation had no idea how to do this and were very interested in learning. None of them knew to add flour, yeast, water, and salt. It wasn't 10 adults, but that small circle of professional adults who were all older than our characters in game did not know how to make a simple bread.

 

Don't know if that counts for your all caps social research rant rage, but based on my very limited study, the majority of people don't know how to make bread.