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Knives are objectively the best weapon.


zomboid123

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13 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:


I don't know exactly what you're implying, I showed the settings I changed and I didn't pick any str boosts, in fact I took extremely underweight(or whatever it's called). And I used all butter knives in the 2nd vid ffs.

Insane 4.0 start 4.0 pop with butter knives, and he tries to say I "faked it" somehow. Some serious salt there m8.

Not saying you "faked" anything, sorry about your guilty conscience, I'm saying not all builds were made equal. I'm also pointing out that you didn't actually fight a horde, and although I'm certain you could, axes are so OP after levelling that it's actually boring, and needs far less running about.

The title of your thread has the word "objectively". You are incorrect.

Edited by critical jim
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Whatever you say buddy. I spawned the world and that's how the zombies were. You tell me what settings and build you want me to run and I'll do it again, like I said though I didn't use any str boosting skills and I took extremely underweight to give me room for handy for durability. I'll record every second of it this time - start to finish.

And my thread title is absolutely correct, try and kill as many zombies as I did with an axe and you will  draw the entire block in and/or end up exhausted. Knives>Axe.

I'm still laughing, I run an insane 4.0 4.0 game with butter knives and he's hemming and hawing moving goalposts like I didn't already prove my point. :lol:

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21 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

Whatever you say buddy. I spawned the world and that's how the zombies were. You tell me what settings and build you want me to run and I'll do it again, like I said though I didn't use any str boosting skills and I took extremely underweight to give me room for handy for durability. I'll record every second of it this time - start to finish.

And my thread title is absolutely correct, try and kill as many zombies as I did with an axe and you will  draw the entire block in and/or end up exhausted. Knives>Axe.

I'm still laughing, I run an insane 4.0 4.0 game with butter knives and he's hemming and hawing moving goalposts like I didn't already prove my point. :lol:

You keep going on about goalposts but my point entirely is that it doesn't matter what your stats are. But if my starting stats have 9 fitness, and I've got some time in and levelled my blade a bit, bring on the block! Bring on the whole neighbourhood. Will I get tired out? Eventually, yea, but not before doing some serious damage, and it's pretty shit simple to sort that out. You're a block from the hardware store, I'm not overly concerned about my axe supply. My lucky trait nets me about 1 axe spawn for every 20 or so zombies killed. I've said that knives have their uses. But they are not objectively better than axes. And axes are not objectively better than knives. I know you're offended, but you said in your first post that you expected resistance, so take it like a man, and don't address me in the 3rd person when you respond.

EDIT: I'll concede to this: for the first 24 hours in-game, assuming a balanced build and no lag (not usually an issue early on), knives are objectively better than axes.

Edited by critical jim
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I'm not offended man, it's hard to convey feelings through the internet. I am just laughing that I shot video footage of spawning a ludicrous game and taking it on with a brand spanking new character with butter knives and got someone trying to say my build is cheating or the zombie settings weren't legit or whatever you're trying to imply. I honestly expected more people to say that the zombies should have been biting me with how close they got. :lol:

We are gonna have to agree to disagree, because I won't give in. I've never(*) lost a character to anything but bordem and the delete button and to me axes are just tools to chop down trees. They do nothing but slow my kill/min down due to resting, and like it or not they do for everyone.

(*)since gettin' gud, as the kids say.

edit: and fwiw what inspired this thread was waiting all the time for my co-op partner because they insist on using axes and I hate waiting for him all the time. :P

Edited by zomboid123
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11 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

I'm not offended man, it's hard to convey feelings through the internet. I am just laughing that I shot video footage of spawning a ludicrous game and taking it on with a brand spanking new character with butter knives and got someone trying to say my build is cheating or the zombie settings weren't legit or whatever you're trying to imply. I honestly expected more people to say that the zombies should have been biting me with how close they got. :lol:

We are gonna have to agree to disagree, because I won't give in. I've never(*) lost a character to anything but bordem and the delete button and to me axes are just tools to chop down trees. They do nothing but slow my kill/min down due to resting, and like it or not they do for everyone.

(*)since gettin' gud, as the kids say.

My implication was simply that the grouping/leaders hadn't gathered yet as it were, and the pushing success rate surprised me. I have plenty experience with knives, and the highly satisfying instakill. I'm in the same boat, though, I usually delete my world after 2 months or so, I'm not much for roughing it. I've never fished, though I've read the beginner book a few times.

EDIT: classy debate, this was fun lol. Let's go lick our wounds 

Edited by critical jim
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4 hours ago, zomboid123 said:


I don't know exactly what you're implying, I showed the settings I changed and I didn't pick any str boosts, in fact I took extremely underweight(or whatever it's called). And I used all butter knives in the 2nd vid ffs.

Insane 4.0 start 4.0 pop with butter knives, and he tries to say I "faked it" somehow. Some serious salt there m8.

I think what hes talking about is how nearly every time you pushed, a group of zombies fell over, instead of just being pushed away.

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Actually, now that I think back, I played co-op with a friend of mine and he hosted and runs windows and it was harder than usual to knock down zombies... I chalked it up to lag, but maybe it is a bug with the linux build single player/co-op? What you see is what you get for "proper zombies" and nothing to up your str on linux. swear on me mum

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On 6/21/2016 at 0:23 AM, zomboid123 said:


and before it even starts, no I was never in any danger in that video. Status: OK    

edit:
Hordes too dangerous? (video)
  
 

 

On 6/21/2016 at 10:45 AM, zomboid123 said:


I don't know exactly what you're implying, I showed the settings I changed and I didn't pick any str boosts, in fact I took extremely underweight(or whatever it's called). And I used all butter knives in the 2nd vid ffs.

Insane 4.0 start 4.0 pop with butter knives, and he tries to say I "faked it" somehow. Some serious salt there m8.

Nobody is being salty, and he didn't imply you faked anything. All he did was make a statement about the conditions present in your video which was correct about. You managed to knock every group you pushed over which is usually not the case for him, or me, and I don't even have my zed buffed in my settings. [Edit, late for that part of it]

 

Forgive me for the criticism of your video evidence, but I don't think it's quite what I was talking about if that was directed at my post.

 

As for the video, this is clearly not the case I was presenting. You weren't surrounded, you were in an open parking lot with small patches of zed. And in your second video, a large horde that was not aware of you, chipping off tiny groups per run in basically in  the same fashion as before. Believe it or not, you only directly fought sparse patches of... well... 2-3 zed within swing distance, which was the threshold as stated in the beginning of the video. For everything larger, you spent more time strafing around and singling them out rather than physically killing the zombies the zombies, which was exactly our point, and conversely proved it by the inability to take on the group head on.

 

Sorry friend, but having the background be full of zombies does not change how many you face in your direct attacks, which never really changed in either video provided. It doesn't factually prove anything, rather that you can kill a lot of zombies with a knife over a long period of time which pretty much none of us disagreed with.

 

Might I say...

 

If you were using an Axe you would have been able to afford to be a lot more aggressive and safer at the same time (and the video would have been a lot shorter). I understand your playthrough ideals but it is not the only one on this forum and the point still stands.

 

If anything I have seen in your video appears to be incorrectly presented, please correct me so I understand better. But do understand that you gave yourself the best case scenario in this video and the effect of it is still questionable for the argument.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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Didn't wanna jump back into this, but it's OBJECTIVELY the most interesting thread today.

The general consensus is that anyone's play style and weapon of choice is subjective. I choose a highly inefficient build that takes months to be comparably effective as other CO-op buddies. I do so because I anticipate my longevity and enjoy an early challenge. I choose engineer so I have the option to build things that I barely ever use because I'm a completionist. I waste 6 points on organized because I'm a hoarder. These bring me tremendous satisfaction, but many would disagree. It's not objectively the best build, but it suits my play style. Some ppl honestly just want to mow down hordes, take a breather, then mow down hordes. Some people choose conspicuous and clumsy so that they can draw as many zed as possible. Some people choose graceful and inconspicuous, and choose their kills carefully. I've had friends who have become quite deadly with firearms of all types. I think the last thing TIS wants is an end-all be-all play style. I don't know if anyone's played the BG series but kensai/thief might ring some bells. It's all subjective.

 

The issue no one can swallow is the word objective. The knife is not objectively the best weapon in all circumstances, builds, gained XP, server settings, and preferred play styles. It most certainly is the best weapon (for the time being, before new anim) for specific conditions, which encourages the use of a variety of weapons and brings about the difficult choice of what to pack and what not to pack on your supply run. The animation update will make the pros and cons much more obvious and diverse, or at least I hope so.

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On 06/21/2016 at 9:11 PM, Kim Jong Un said:

of... well... 2-3 zed within swing distance, which was the threshold as stated in the beginning of the video.

You want to be critical that's fine, but don't straight up lie.

edit: and the video wasn't directed at anyone specifically
 

22 hours ago, critical jim said:

 

The issue no one can swallow is the word objective. The knife is not objectively the best weapon in all circumstances,

 


I say they are objectively the best because
A. They never tires you out
B. You can carry an additional bag without penality
C. You can push as many zombies as an axe can hit, there is no added danger

You can disagree, sure. But I don't think my reasoning is unsound.
 

Edited by zomboid123
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35 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

You want to be critical that's fine, but don't straight up lie.

edit: and the video wasn't directed at anyone specifically
 

 

I never lied. Were you or were you not running and strafing backwards from them in that shot as I saw in the video? Because it certainly looks like you weren't facing that group head on swinging at them, which I still hold.

 

And going back on that video, that is also where the 99% knockdown success rate he was talking about can be seen.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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9 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

 

I never lied. Were you or were you not running and strafing backwards from them in that shot as I saw in the video? Because it certainly looks like you weren't facing that group head on swinging at them. 

Very clearly in a push animation. Like I said, you can push as many zombies as you can hit with an axe(three)...

edit: and how about you stop trying to kafka trap me. I'm not going to defend a position I don't hold. My argument isn't that you can "just sit there and swing" like with an axe, I know they don't have the same abilities. My argument is and always will be that the end results are always better with a knife because you will never be exerted by fighting with a knife and you can carry an additional bag.

Sorry but I'm not even going to respond to you if you are going to argue in bad faith.

Edited by zomboid123
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8 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

Very clearly in a push animation. Like I said, you can push as many zombies as you can hit with an axe(three)...

True that you were, but irrelevant, as you weren't advancing. That's what you were doing in the shot but you certainly weren't on the offensive. In the clip of when you got that small group following you, you spent more time strafing backwards and running then actually killing the zombies, and then there was the pushing with the odd 99% success rate.

 

And by the way... Axe knocks them back and can kill them in the same swing. High accuracy or even none can kill during the hit. Way more predictable too.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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15 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

You can see my last post. And an axe is NEVER as predictable as a knife, sorry but that is a ridiculous argument.

 

I thought you just edited in that you weren't going to respond to me?

 

When I swing at a small following with an axe, I can be assured that the zed will receive knockback. I don't have to push. That's the reliability. No strafing required. [Edit: And I can swing again after that if the following is larger than 3]

 

On top of that, there is the kill chance, which is already high enough to notice. And the accuracy of the blade skill.

 

There's no need to get offended over this. I'm not insulting you but I mean this video isn't helping your argument as much as you are sure it is and that's all I'm pointing out...

 

Edit: I think I also stated somewhere earlier that I use knives over axes as my main, so you are preaching to the choir about the benefits of using knives. But to say it is the best with "better end results" is really hard to present as the case for everyone.

 

Post-Edit: If you want to argue points about what other benefits there are to the axe swing over a push/knife combo rather than damage, do remember the increased range with the axe and vastly superior durability as well - not to mention the higher benefits of wood glue over duct tape, which you can't use on knives.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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I'm not offended but like I said I feel no obligation to defend a point I don't hold.
 

16 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

When I swing at a small following with an axe, I can be assured that the zed will receive knockback. I don't have to push. That's the reliability. No strafing required.


A push always gives knockback too, I don't understand what you mean. And the "strafing" is me trying to manipulate the order of the zombies to seperate for stabs.. That's how you properly fight with a knife. First kill faster zombies, then time your pushes to seperate.

If you aren't satisfied with the video tell me what you want me to run. I already said I will take requests.

16 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

lastly superior durability as well - not to mention the higher benefits of wood glue over duct tape, which you can't use on knives.

 


Really? You're going to try and go there? There are probably 20:1 knives in the game, not to mention screwdrivers. It's literally nothing.

Edited by zomboid123
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9 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

I'm not offended but like I said I feel no obligation to defend a point I don't hold.
 


A push always gives knockback too, I don't understand what you mean. And the "strafing" is me trying to manipulate the order of the zombies to seperate for stabs.. That's how you properly fight with a knife. First kill faster zombies, then time your pushes to seperate.

If you aren't satisfied with the video tell me what you want me to run. I already said I will take requests.

 

I don't want you to run anything. The fact that you aren't striking them head on and have to strafe backwards and run proves my point alone. You just can't take on groups as fast or as efficiently as you can with an axe. I realize why you have to strafe (as I said I use knives as my main), but it's not a problem for other weapons such as the Axe or Baseball Bat, where you can continue swinging until exertion which does not come for a while with even moderately fit characters.

 

It is plain and simply a job the knife is not designed to do as well as it's two handed brethren, and it is also a job the heavier two handed weapons are suited for.

 

Edit for your edit: Wood glue repairs more, and is also used for Bats and Axes. Bats are common enough and last longer. Less waste. More usage.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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Okay, so your position is: I have to fight differently with a knife so I lose by default? Axes/Bats are NOT as effecient and I've explained why about 10 times in this thread including my OP. That's literally the crux of my argument. There is no increased danger to myself because I know how to push. I can take on the same size groups and not tire out my character, but because the fighting styles are different it invalidates the superior outcome? Come on man, that can't sound anything but ridiculous even to you. Any time you saved by "standing there and swinging" is invalidated about 3 large groups in when you have to rest.

Oh and I forgot to mention in the op another plus: I never need beta blockers either. Yeah I might whiff 1:20 stabs from panic but that's far less than the number of zeds you WON"T crit with an axe even WITH beta blockers.

Edited by zomboid123
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8 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

Okay, so your position is: I have to fight differently with a knife so I lose by default? Axes/Bats are NOT as effecient and I've explained why about 10 times in this thread including my OP. That's literally the crux of my argument. There is no increased danger to myself because I know how to push. I can take on the same size groups and not tire out my character, but because the fighting styles are different it invalidates the superior outcome? Come on man, that can't sound anything but ridiculous even to you. Any time you saved by "standing there and swinging" is invalidated about 3 large groups in when you have to rest.

Unfortunately you don't get to make that argument because you literally made this thread about how knives are superior weapons in the game when used with your own fighting style, which is evidently comparable to everyone else's with pros and cons as expected.

 

Want to know why knives aren't the best weapon period? Because in more common of situations you can do the same job with an Axe in significantly less time and still have the same weapon by the time the fight is over. And the exhaustion? Not actually that bad. More exhaustion from running away than fighting if your character is fit enough. And while you can be more efficient with knives, some people prefer the more direct approach, which is a perfectly fine argument which you need to understand.

 

And for the last time, I use knives as my main. You do not need to explain to me the benefits of using a knife. I do not represent the axe users, which I am fully confident can hold their own in this debate because I have seen what level 8 blade accuracy and 8 fitness/strength with an axe and beta blockers/brave trait can do to a horde.

Edited by Kim Jong Un
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Use cheats to spawn in a group of 50 zombies, set me a par time and if I don't get within ~30 seconds of your time I lose. If you hit more than level 1 exhaustion you lose by default.

edit: actually scratch that for every tier of exhaustion you gain 60 seconds gets added to your par.

Edited by zomboid123
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1 minute ago, zomboid123 said:

Use cheats to spawn in a group of 50 zombies, set me a par time and if I don't get within ~30 seconds of your time I lose. If you hit more than level 1 exhaustion you lose by default.

 

Now you are just trying to strongarm me into something I not only don't want to do, but don't care enough about this argument to do either. The challenge is by your rules and your terms as well, so I'm just going to draw the line there.

 

Good day to you.

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6 minutes ago, zomboid123 said:

"Point A and point B don't matter, because I say so. And point C that you never even stated invalidates it all anyway. I can't defend my position so I'm just gonna be smug and run off. "

So you don't find anything salty about trying to determine a debate by a self-decided challenge with your own decided catalyst?

 

Jim-Halpert-Shrug-and-Leave-The-Office.g

 

Okay there, Dwight, I just realized it's 1 in the morning and I don't actually have to take this from you. Have fun in your thread about your opinion.

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