zomboid123 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 A bold claim, but I think I can make a solid case. Here we go~Axe Causes fatigue Reduced effectivesness if one-handed One hit kills are RNG, not truely a powerhouse until ~mid-level blade accuracy Loud, can attract a lot of unwanted attention Rare Also a necessary tool for survival Blunt Causes fatigue, Sledge is like sleeping pills for fatigue Bats lose effectiveness one handed One handed only blunt weps hit only one zombie Loud, can attract a lot of unwanted attention Make way too many crawlers Common, I guess. Yay? Crowbar has durability in spades... but it's still a crowbar. No wait, actually it's a bat... but it's not. Seriously, just... no. Unless you have no other choice. Pls buff Knives Zero fatigue Can carry a 2nd bag or a flashlight with no penalty Always kills in one hit, 100% effectiveness at zero points(durability aside...I'll get to that) Nearly silent, noise travels roughly 1 tile away(unless you mess up and bonk them on the nose) Extremely common Common arguments and my answers"It's too hard/I can't get the timing down..." You know that point where you are too close to swing an axe/bat and your char pushes instead? That's the same spot you stab. Always walk towards a zombie as you stab until you get REALLY good at judging the distance. I don't know why but it helps you develop and maintain a rhythm for stabbing. Set up a sandbox with horde size of 5, max separation from leader, max seperation between groups and practice for a little bit. Slowly increase horde size and decrease separation as you get better. You'll be a pro in no time. "Knives have low durability" Carry a ton of butter knives at first, save your kitchen knives until ~2pts maint if you can. Find screwdrivers ASAP and never leave them behind, they work like knives and are super durable. They cannot be repaired, but don't worry you can still move stuff with them and craft even when they are at broken status. Chopping trees is great blade maint xp and you're going to be doing it anyways so save good weapons until you have done some carpentry grinding, Once you get 4 or so points in maint you can drop a standard survival zed group with a single butter knife: Problem solved. "Using knives is too dangerous" Mastering the push is the key to excelling with the knife: Learn to judge spacing so you can push exactly the zombie(s) you want to push and no more. Once you have mastered the push, zombies are a pushover. (okay, that was horrid. pls no tomatos ) Zombies move at different speeds, you can exploit this to knife them one by one, reducing risk to yourself. You can sneak faster than even the fastest zombie can attack - at sprinting level zero! Sure, they can catch up to you, but they can not finish an attack animation - provided you are continuously moving. Don't panic! If you run you will only draw more attention. (note: this does not apply when 2+ zombies catch up to you and slow you, tap sprint once to create a gap, zombies lose speed over time while running and slow to "catch their breath" - exploit this.) PROTIP: Never, ever, EVER(!) just walk into unexplored tight spaces(bathrooms, closets, stairwells, corners): Open the door(or stop at a corner/middle of stairwell) and stab the air with your knife and the zombie(s) will happily come to you every single time. (note: this applies even if you choose not to use knives, it works with any weapon.) "The axe can hit multiple zombies at once" When your stabbing and pushing game is solid you will have better results than an axe unless it crits multiple zeds(mid-level blade accuracy for this to occur regularly). Even then I'd argue the end result is always better unless you have put yourself in a precarious situation that absolutely requires felling 2-3 zombies a swing,.. Bold claim, right? Better..? Yes, better: Because you can achieve the same result in roughly the same amount of time and it cost you almost no fatigue if you executed properly, You can clear a ton more zombie groups and cover more ground with less time spent resting, things also tend to go more smoothly more often because knifing zombies very rarely draws the attention of multiple groups - and on top of that you can carry two bags and be at full effectiveness! Jason132 and Bughunter66 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geras Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 I'd just wish hunting knives were more common. Or even more durable. Never ever I've found 2 of them in a single game. zomboid123 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) Lol, dumbb statment is dumbb. Pipe Bomb obvzly best wepon in gaem! Here isa checklist: Does it splode?: Pipebomb YES! Knife NOE! Look cool?: Pipebomb YES! Knife, well not if you use a butterknife NOE! Instant 23 pleyer kill streek?: Pipebomb YES! Knife NOE! Microwavable?: Pipebomb YES! Knife NOPE! Asparagys?: Pipebomb YES! Knife... mebeh Ez say?: Pipebomb YES! Knife... No way, silent K kills 5000 a year! Dumb list?: Pipebomb YES! Knife, what I am being threatened with to write this comment. Gud at partay? Pipebomb YES! Knife no (97% of cake death is caused by knive)! By this objective roster, we can now see that I'm a pathetic idiot. Also pipebombs > knife anyday! Edit: You know that liking these comments of mine is a negative influence right? Edited June 17, 2016 by King Kitteh Geras, Magic Mark, thejoker954 and 7 others 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keshash Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 What about screwdrivers? They're like knives too, you know... I'm still waiting to test plunger. Also, congrats with your 666 post, Geras! Bourbon, Geras and zomboid123 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zomboid123 Posted June 17, 2016 Author Share Posted June 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, King Kitteh said: Lol, dumbb statment is dumbb. Pipe Bomb obvzly best wepon in gaem! Jokes aside, pipebombs are pretty bad... They have what, a 4 tile radius? Totally underwhelming. And why do they start fires? IMO increase the blast radius and lose the fire. 3 minutes ago, Keshash said: What about screwdrivers? They're like knives too, you know... I'm still waiting to test plunger. Also, congrats with your 666 post, Geras! I covered that in my post: They are great, probably the best "knife" in the game. 19 minutes ago, Geras said: I'd just wish hunting knives were more common. Or even more durable. Never ever I've found 2 of them in a single game. You can find them often in the places that spawn tote bags, seeds, jars/lids & ammo in counters. IE: banks, schools, hotel lobbies, houses with messed up kitchen loot(west point apartments above stores, most of the neighborhood to the north of the pharmacy/garage). They are particulary common in metal counters so long as it's not kitchen loot that is spawning. And of course the usuals I'm sure you know of - gunshop/firing range/police station. Strats and Keshash 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strats Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Screwdrivers are good, but I think that the durability of the hunting knife is higher, so I use it more. Personally, I use my axe more often because it allows me to knock back more zombies if I open a doorway and 2+ come rushing out. I've had quite a few character deaths where one bites me while his buddy gets knifed. Magic Mark and zomboid123 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorak Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Well knifes are a bit OP coz you can make that 1 hit stab at 0 lvl blade weapon skill. Just let it unlock at lvl 2 or 3. But still if I ever had to pick 1 weapon and fight with it all the time: axe > knife At higher blade skill your swing is so fast thst you can just spam it to keep 5-8 zeds away with 0% risk. Knifes are great for small packs 2-3 and if you face that that you need to kite zeds around and take extra care not to drag more. Also knifes and MP lag is a bad combination. Magic Mark and zomboid123 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyisdude Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 This has been addressed before. The reason it is currently the way it is, is because of the lack of animations for knives. In the new animations update, everything about knives and small weapons like it are going to change. Kuren, zomboid123, Spaniard and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zomboid123 Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, Strats said: Personally, I use my axe more often because it allows me to knock back more zombies if I open a doorway and 2+ come rushing out. I've had quite a few character deaths where one bites me while his buddy gets knifed. You can push the same number of zombies an axe can hit(3). I said this already in my 1st post but a tip for you: Swing your weapon after you open every door, the zombies will hear it and come out and you won't get caught off guard, open the door at an angle so they don't have LOS and charge at you immediately. 8 hours ago, Zorak said: Knifes are great for small packs 2-3 and if you face that that you need to kite zeds around and take extra care not to drag more. Dealing with a full standard survival zombie group is no issue with a knife. 2-3 zombies? That's a fairly easy job even bare handed. Edited June 18, 2016 by zomboid123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critical jim Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Axe+lag > knife+lag. I wish it weren't a part of my reality, but I judge the survivability of all situations by whether I can lose 2 seconds and not be scratched or bitten on the other side. Kuren and Magic Mark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morbo513 Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 I have to agree with OP. After playing only ~60 hours in the last few days out of the 74 I've clocked total, knives are the best weapon to the point of being ridiculously OP - especially the Dard and Butterfly knives in Hydrocraft and especially if you picked veteran (no panic). The Machete in that mod is also half-way between. You can stab, but it takes longer than with the better knives. However you can still swing as with an axe, and depending on your accuracy and panic it can take as little as 1-2 to kill. Anyway, I see this as an issue that needs to be addressed, as fun as it is to take on a horde of 50+ and come out unscathed. The only way I can think of to do so is by changing the zombies' combat behaviour. As far as I can tell, the only time you can trigger the chin stab is as a zombie is grabbing you to attack. Randomising the time it takes to initiate and complete that attack, to the point that they can do so before you complete the chin stab would make it an unreliable attack. Making the chin-stab a separate attack that must be triggered by the player would also change it up. It could have a greater effect on endurance loss and weapon durability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreepyD Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I guess it could work the same as an axe. If it 'crits' then you get the 1 hit kill animation, otherwise you get the normal forward stab animation. But yeah hopefully the animation system update will change the way this kind of thing works. I've been on a break until that hits, can't wait Keshash 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorak Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 TBH the only OP thing with knives is that you can perform that 1 hit kill without investing a single point in blade skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Mark Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) Meh. I just have a different point of view on this. While knives make awesome work for dedicated weapons, it's too easy to argue why an axe or bat would be the safer weapon and generally more effective for taking out groups of zombies. Arguing for knives to be the most OP melee weapon in the game can be chalked up to "I found a way to make things significantly more difficult and time consuming, but it's cheap, 1-hit KO if I time it right and reliable and therefore better" which unfortunately can't be the case 100% of your game. Once you reach the blade accuracy where axe kills are pretty much guaranteed without too much effort, there is no question that the potential kills-per-second is higher with the axe - there is also the knockback, which the knives don't have. Don't misunderstand where I am coming from - I have been using knives as my main for the past bunch of updates, I know how to use them effectively and have, but as a long-time knife user, they just simply aren't right for every situation. Once you throw in the factor of fighting multiple zed at the same time the one misclick or zed crowd with a knife can lead to your death. The stab action takes up time and isn't actually pushing more of them back. Which is why knives aren't for every situation. I have repaired my hunting knife well over the recommended amount and have moved on to Kitchen knives. My blade maintenance is pretty high, but maintaining knives can start to look pretty expensive when you live out in the country and stop finding duct tape (and other knives) close to home. In conclusion, in the right situation they can be your best friend. But if your reflexes aren't as good, or if you ended up in a really bad situation, or if your character runs too slow to get out of dodge, it can be the worst choice you have made all day. There is plenty of right situations to use knives in, but there are even more situations where you can use an Axe that you can't use a knife for. I always take my knife over my axe when scavenging or hauling loot as a defense weapon but too many times has that situation turned into "flight or 2 handed weapon". Edited June 19, 2016 by Kim Jong Un Foulmouth, Geras, Bughunter66 and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teesee Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Gotta agree with our Supreme Leader. I've always seen knives as "high risk, high reward" weapons that simply aren't enough when it comes to fighting a small horde. That way, I wouldn't say they're OP because they're useful in some situations, useless in others, and they need practice. It would be OP if bad timing didn't make you lose a save because of a scratch or a bite. Geras, Magic Mark, Kuren and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 4 hours ago, Teesee said: Gotta agree with our Supreme Leader. I've always seen knives as "high risk, high reward" weapons that simply aren't enough when it comes to fighting a small horde. That way, I wouldn't say they're OP because they're useful in some situations, useless in others, and they need practice. It would be OP if bad timing didn't make you lose a save because of a scratch or a bite. Do they really need practice? From my first stabbing I was pretty much perfectly on time, every time. Only time I get bit when I'm on a shanking spree is when I accidently stumble upon a bathroom party. Bathroom zombies man, they the risky biz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critical jim Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) Knives are definitely a must-have in your go-bag. Quickly dispatch a few loners without tiring yourself out, and switching out definitely saved my life when a swarm shoved me into a corner at the mall. My axe couldn't swing, exhaustion had made me quite ineffective, but I knew my guard skill might buy me up to a minute, especially with my back to the wall. 40 zombie kill streak and 3 non lethal scratches. A single crawler would have done me in. Circumstances should always decide for you, and someone who understands that stands a better chance IRL, IMO. I'm strictly melee, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't blast my way out of a pickle with a conveniently located shotgun once or twice. In that situation, loaded shotgun > broken axe Edited June 20, 2016 by critical jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bower Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Panic causes your knife hit to miss, or you get locked into knife animation on a completely different zombie then the one you are targeting. Chances may be like 1 in 400 for the second one tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zomboid123 Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Knives are only safe for 2-3 zombies (video) Edited June 21, 2016 by zomboid123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaGrey Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2-3 one shots and no exertion keep knives awesome. Hunting knife does better. zomboid123 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zomboid123 Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, zomboid123 said: Knives are only safe for 2-3 zombies (video) and before it even starts, no I was never in any danger in that video. Status: OK edit:Hordes too dangerous? (video) Edited June 21, 2016 by zomboid123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geras Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 @zomboid123 It gets much more dangerous with a mod that allows you to push/hit only one zombie at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critical jim Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, zomboid123 said: and before it even starts, no I was never in any danger in that video. Status: OK edit:Hordes too dangerous? (video) I found it neat how the zombies weren't grouped, and you had a 99% success rate for pushing zombies over. My luck with pushing is terrible but I don't usually have very high strength to start, so that might be it. In which case, one should note that this is in easy mode EDIT: I could post a video of the many times I've stood still and just started swinging an axe while 100+ zed swarm me. Super boring compared to yours though, no running around and no music, just me yawning Edited June 21, 2016 by critical jim zomboid123 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 On 6/19/2016 at 6:00 PM, King Kitteh said: Do they really need practice? From my first stabbing I was pretty much perfectly on time, every time. Only time I get bit when I'm on a shanking spree is when I accidently stumble upon a bathroom party. Bathroom zombies man, they the risky biz! Yup! You have to get used to the animation, and understand how it leads you vulnerable to being attacked by groups of zombies! Personally, I've always felt pretty damn effective with knives, but there's nothing like using a bludgeoning weapon to beat them back which offers a very distinct advantage. I shudder to think at the nuances that the new weapons system will bring to the game. These kinds of changes will make this hiatus of not playing the game even more meaningful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zomboid123 Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 33 minutes ago, critical jim said: I found it neat how the zombies weren't grouped, and you had a 99% success rate for pushing zombies over. My luck with pushing is terrible but I don't usually have very high strength to start, I don't know exactly what you're implying, I showed the settings I changed and I didn't pick any str boosts, in fact I took extremely underweight(or whatever it's called). And I used all butter knives in the 2nd vid ffs. Insane 4.0 start 4.0 pop with butter knives, and he tries to say I "faked it" somehow. Some serious salt there m8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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