TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) Injury/Medical System Issues and Proposed Solutions Issue: Amateur medical care being on par with professional medical care. Solutions: Prescription Medication and Over-the-Counter Medication. Medication can have side effects, with prescription medication side effects much more severe than OTC medication, and mixing medication can be dangerous. Only Doctors know what side effects pertain to what medicine, and which meds shouldn't be mixed, as well as what happens when you do mix meds and how to treat dangerous mixtures. Issue: Not enough non-fatal wounds, leading to large, useless medical supply. Solutions: Menial tasks can injure survivors based on their lack of skill in certain tasks (cooking, building, ect.) Amateur treatment may cause more issues than solve, leading to infection, sickness, and possibly death. This would all help the issues Doctors have leveling First Aid, as people would really want to be healed by a professional, instead of doing it themselves and possibly dying. Edited April 28, 2016 by TheDreaded1 TacoBot3000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I bet it's planned, they already overhauled it once since when I bought the game. There's a really good mod that is trying to expand first aid, you should check it, it's lovely, and some great people like svarog and blindcoder helped with the scripts It's called object zero more meds I hope it fits you, personally I love it TheDreaded1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) Things like hurting yourself from being clumsy/panicked/fat are already planned. If you watch the animation video you can see a player tripping over a fence. As for things like cutting yourself while cooking or hurting your hand. I really don't like this. It's just annoying to have RNG punish you randomly. If there's nothing the player could have done to prevent it, it's not a good idea. It'd be like if you had a chance of pricking your finger when suturing unless you wore a thimble, it's just inconvenient. Edit: My example was showing that even if you could prevent it, it'd be a hassel. Edited April 28, 2016 by King Kitteh TheDreaded1 and winterpyre 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 Less chance to injure yourself the more skilled you are, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I agree with king kitteh, that would be RNG, and rng is just bad usually. I think that the medicine skill can grow in another direction rather than having more way to receive a cut: Medicine can (and probably will, AFAIK) expand on the drugs part, with addiction and more kind of meds, perhaps more kind of disease as well. I see where you come from with the idea, but "If there's nothing the player could have done to prevent it, it's not a good idea." The guy is indeed right in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 RNG = Shit happens, and Shit Happens is a huge part of life. You say different diseases, but it's the same thing. How many ways can you show sickness before it's redundant? RNG injury during menial tasks should play a much bigger role, even if you include safety equipment to minimize the risk, Currently doctors are inconsequential to surviving, and I always have more meds than I will ever use when I finally die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, TheDreaded1 said: Less chance to injure yourself the more skilled you are, then. Still not great. If you want more chances of injury look to things where you have a choice to do something faster which a chance of injury. For example, breaking into a house through the window. Assuming the window is locked and you intend to smash the glass, you are now given two choices. Remove glass then climb through, takes longer but has no risks. Or, climb through window with shards still in it. Faster but more dangerous. Here the player has a choice with a risk involved, it is RNG yes, but it is preventable RNG. Also, something with risks involved should have an upside (or perceived upside). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 That's too specific to be a good example though. Who doesn't clear the window before jumping through? If you are outside, why would you hop through a broken window to escape zombies when you could break LoS and have room to move, and if you are inside, you can just open the window. The threat of injury from climbing through windows is nonexistent, and highlights exactly why we need more threats of injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) While I agree on the issue (I play a doc all the times as well), I don't quite agree on the solution. You're right, diseases will get redundant eventually (even though I think a couple of them would make some interesting mechanics) So don't really quote me on that, but at the same time I completely agree with the broken glass example done by king kitteh, that's the way I like RNG. What do you think of the blood transfusion thing introduced in the mod I talked about? I think that's a good mechanic Edit: actually I've seen a couple of situations where time was too precious to remove the broken glass, it might be just me though Edited April 28, 2016 by Livio Persemprio TheDreaded1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 1 minute ago, TheDreaded1 said: RNG = Shit happens, and Shit Happens is a huge part of life. This is true, but this is a game not real life, and when playing a game RNG can be really annoying. I do agree with doctors being somewhat useless though. Maybe you should look at more negative ramifications for amateur doctoring, or even self doctoring. Try not to make it down to RNG though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Also I believe the devs are considering amputations, perhaps as a one time cure for a bite or scratch. I assume high level doctor skill would be necessary for 'SAWING YOUR FREAKEN' ARM OFF™', also it provides a solution to the "doctor is useless for bite or scratch". Livio Persemprio, DresdenBBQ and TheDreaded1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) I love the sound of punishing self medication from amateurs. People in MP just constsntly do that, forcing me to grind first aid the boring way. Well, guess what? You're not a doctor, you shouldn't try to extract a lodged glass yourself, have fun with that bleeding and that infection :3 Yep, I love it Edited April 28, 2016 by Livio Persemprio TheDreaded1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 RNG is a huge part of this game though, just look at armed combat, and I think it's the most fluid way to both increase the number of non-fatal injuries and show inexperience. Who here hasn't burned themselves when cooking? Did you plan for it? Oven Mitts could've prevented that...ya know that kind of thing. The benefit is you get to eat (homecooked meals should provide higher hunger values than looted food, imo) Livio Persemprio 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Hmmm. Now I'm undecided. Just non fathal wounds you say? That doesn't sound so bad after all TheDreaded1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 RNG can be okay when it's balanced by repetition. You fight zombies so often that the RNG of a zombie taking 20 hits one time evens out with the ones that go down in one shot. Having to wear oven mitts would just be annoying IMO. It just adds another unnecessary step to game play, and there's no reason not to wear them so you end up lugging oven mitts everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Livio Persemprio said: Hmmm. Now I'm undecided. Just non fathal wounds you say? That doesn't sound so bad after all Yea, more non-fatal wounds. We have plenty of ways to die, currently. Livio Persemprio 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) Actually I would just accept the risk of burns most of the time, and since I'm a low level cook I WILL get burnt, no real issue just a scratch to remember me that I am just an amateur. How does that sound? I mean, if the punishment is not harsh, why bother looking for oven mitts? Edited April 28, 2016 by Livio Persemprio TheDreaded1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, King Kitteh said: Having to wear oven mitts would just be annoying IMO. It just adds another unnecessary step to game play, and there's no reason not to wear them so you end up lugging oven mitts everywhere. If you get your Cooking skill high enough, then you won't need oven mitts. Any injury sustained would be a minor inconvenience, not game ending...gives doctors a reason to be important, and puts a drain on the medical supply stock, which is desperately needed. The risk of running out before dying just isn't there, and we need to put the 'survival' aspect of injuries into play, imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Livio Persemprio said: Actually I would just accept the risk of burns most of the time, and since I'm a low level cook I WILL get burnt, no real issue just a scratch to remember me that I am just an amateur. How does that sound? If it's not bad enough to be a problem, then I don't really mind. But it still isn't great when the reason for a certain choice is "I can't be bothered". Just now, TheDreaded1 said: If you get your Cooking skill high enough, then you won't need oven mitts. Any injury sustained would be a minor inconvenience, not game ending...gives doctors a reason to be important, and puts a drain on the medical supply stock, which is desperately needed. The risk of running out before dying just isn't there, and we need to put the 'survival' aspect of injuries into play, imo I've stated my opinion. As long as there is a reason for for either choice I don't mind really (as long as the reason isn't "the other option is too inconvenient"). I'll be a bit more lenient on RNG though, I can understand it's importance in non-fatal situations. I wouldn't mind having higher risks of infections from amateur surgery work and such. TheDreaded1, Livio Persemprio, Foulmouth and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I'm not completely decided yet, but I like where this is going So far the issues that we all agree on are: -grinding first aid by cutting yourself a lot instead of healing people who can't be bothered and self medicate even though logically they shouldn't(grinding is also a little bit slow IMO) -stockpiles of meds that won't ever be used, sad lonely meds, they remind me of the poor Stinky Pete from toy story 2 -not enough situations where first aid is helpful Anything else? And yep, king kitteh, that's why I'm still undecided TheDreaded1 and winterpyre 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, King Kitteh said: If it's not bad enough to be a problem, then I don't really mind. But it still isn't great when the reason for a certain choice is "I can't be bothered". I've stated my opinion. As long as there is a reason for for either choice I don't mind really (as long as the reason isn't "the other option is too inconvenient"). I'll be a bit more lenient on RNG though, I can understand it's importance in non-fatal situations. I wouldn't mind having higher risks of infections from amateur surgery work and such. Absolutely! Amateur medical treatment should have the chance to cause more problems than it fixes. Combine both our ideas, and we have a robust medical system Bughunter66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Livio Persemprio said: I'm not completely decided yet, but I like where this is going So far the issues that we all agree on are: -grinding first aid by cutting yourself a lot instead of healing people who can't be bothered and self medicate even though logically they shouldn't(grinding is also a little bit slow IMO) -stockpiles of meds that won't ever be used, sad lonely meds, they remind me of the poor Stinky Pete from toy story 2 -not enough situations where first aid is helpful Pretty much all of this Bughunter66 and Livio Persemprio 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kitteh Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I was thinking, currently herbalists are the only ones that can see what berries and mushrooms are poisonous. But what about if bottles of pills were given random side effects only doctors understood. Effects could be sleepiness, alertness, anxiety etc. Also they could see if mixing some types of pills would have a negative effect (possibly even death from too many types?). Injury from mixed medicines would be avoidable to non-doctors as they would simply only take one type of pill. TheDreaded1, Livio Persemprio and Suomiboi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDreaded1 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, King Kitteh said: I was thinking, currently herbalists are the only ones that can see what berries and mushrooms are poisonous. But what about if bottles of pills were given random side effects only doctors understood. Effects could be sleepiness, alertness, anxiety etc. Also they could see if mixing some types of pills would have a negative effect (possibly even death from too many types?). Injury from mixed medicines would be avoidable to non-doctors as they would simply only take one type of pill. I really like this idea...if it makes doctors OP, then seperate it into a pharmacist occupation. Regardless, this would be really cool Edit: More of the 'mixing medication causing health problems or death" variety. I mean, people die from that now, and there aren't even any zombies Edited April 28, 2016 by TheDreaded1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livio Persemprio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I love this, I mean there's already a trace of it ingame: try to mix sleeping pills and whiskey XD (may work with alcohol beverages, I didn't dare to try) So yeah, I feel like this is where the game should go, that's good RNG as well since you can avoid the damage if you know how. I don't think it would be op, a good doc should really be EVERYTHING to a group, like carpenters are now, but that's just my two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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