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New Metalworking (spoiler) from RJ


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3 hours ago, makkenhoff said:

I have no real complaints about metalworking as a whole, I kind of wish the backlash didn't occur, because all it did was send it back to the drawing board, instead of getting something tangible that we could tweak to our own idea of what it should be. In my mind, the whole thing has been one giant waste of time, because a vocal group of players (justified or not, large or small) decided it was a horrible idea and have continued to do nothing but tear down each and every iteration.

 

Where did you get that they pushed the idea back to the drawing board?

 

The main complain i had along with Svargo is that it feels like any other crafting game.

Rust, 7 Days to Die, Minecraft, Terraria and along the thousand new "Crafting survival games!" have god damn stone furnaces.

 

The only game that i can think off that has a believable way to forge stuff is The Long Dark, why is The Long Dark special? Because it has 1 forge, cant craft it, cant move it because a forge is heavy as [insert heavy stuff here], it makes it a tactical advantage of having a forge to be able to craft stuff, making the player move around the environment want it or not to craft new metal items from scrap metal.

 

Like i said before, maybe leaving forges in a static place and make people fight for it would be a better solution, lets take the walking dead for example.

In the comics, the machinery they need to make ammo and that kind of stuff is very heavy, so they clear the path to it, secure it, shit happens, people die but at the end of the day they are able to make ammo.

 

Maybe adding forges to some specialized stores, warehouses and other places could work? Making some movable forges for small smelting and loner players and the bigger ones in static locations for more industrial purposes. 

 

Or hell just use the cooking stove powered by wood to heat the metal and be able to work it and then you start doing all the other stuff you need to shape it into what you want.

 

And as far as the idea of getting hurt in the process is concern, i like it in concept, but you are adding a risk of RNG that a lot of players cant control therefore making it a pain in the ass and taking control away from the players.

 

I am all in in the idea of having a way to stop the grind of making a thousand wooden floors, but you reallly need to plan it out and make it fair for the players, otherwise people are going to get mad.

 

Think of it like scavenging in Neo Scavenger, you always have a chance of the fucking roof collapsing in your head for a bad RNG roll that could possible kill you.

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Foundations should really be added to the game, not necessarily concrete foundations but at least wooden posts.

 

Generators that can run a fridge and a 240V light circuit, and generators that can run a welder for hours are not the same thing.

I have no idea how portable this kind of gear would've been in 1993, but I would think a big generator, a welder, and a (Duffel+) bag containing the cables, tools and consumables would have to worth several logs and/or ham radios of in-game weight, even now.

 

I'm quite skeptical of smelting.  Melting various metals with a gas torch may be more appropriate, but I'm still not liking the concept.

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8 hours ago, Gaffa Tape Warrior said:

Steel is iron. They had steel pipes on mace handles.

 

I'm afraid not. Iron is an element while steel is an alloy of iron and carbon (and other metals if needed to give it additional properties).

I haven't found any information on steel pipe mace handles so I can't really comment on that.

 

 

A few ideas of how to obtain pipes without forging them:

"Cut down chain link fence". Required tools: hacksaw (a new item) or blowtorch. Voilà you have got yourself a nice long piece of steel pipe and some chain link, deleting a section of fence.

"Rip house off piping". Required tools: hacksaw or blowtorch or adjustable wrench (new item).

"Cut down road sign". Required tools: hacksaw or blowtorch. You'd also get a sheet of metal!

"Dig up and cut pipe beneath fire hydrant". Required tools: trowel or shovel, blowtorch or hacksaw.

"Dismantle scaffolding". Required tools: hacksaw or blowtorch or adjustable wrench.

"Cut down street lamp". Required tools: hacksaw or blowtorch. You'd also get some wire, electric parts and light bulbs.

"Pick up pipe". Required tools: none!

 

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"Rip machine off pipes". Required tools: hacksaw or blowtorch and/or adjustable wrench.

 

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It would be a matter of game balance to decide the amount of short (or long) pipe sections one would get by the above means.

Long sections could be cut into shorter sections with blowtorch/hacksaw. Smaller sections could be welded into long sections. Long sections could be used to make metal frame for a wall or other things. Short sections are already used to make pipe bombs.

 

And that's just pipes! There's square tubing as well which could basically replace pipes.

 

Once you get a steel pipe you could basically hammer sheet metal around it making pipes of sheet metal (as EG suggested). Welding ends together after hammering would be overcomplicating it a bit so there would be no need for that. I cannot really see another - realistic to a degree - way to make metal pipes without machinery.

 

 

1 hour ago, TheDreaded1 said:

Melting metal down and pouring a molten metal into a mold hasn't been used since like the bronze age. Puts too much carbon in the metal making it brittle, but i don't see any other way to forge prefab stock to use for shaping

 

That's where they could introduce a few new items:

 

- small scrap metal

- medium scrap metal

- large scrap metal

 

Small - for small stuff (knives, spoons etc.)

Medium - medium stuff (axe head etc.)

Large - large stuff (wall sections etc.)

 

You could weld 2 small ones into 1 medium one.

2 medium ones into a big one.

4 small ones into a big one.

Cut medium one into 2 small ones.

Cut big one into 2 medium or 4 small ones.

 

Make it spawn in crates, make wagons at rail yard useful and make it spawn in them, too. Spawn them at car shops and rubbish bins. Forage for them (unless US forests are 100% clean of rubbish). Dismantle machinery into scrap. Sky is the limit.

Edited by Geras
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17 minutes ago, Geras said:

 

That's where they could introduce a few new items:

 

- small scrap metal

- medium scrap metal

- large scrap metal

 

Small - for small stuff (knives, spoons etc.)

Medium - medium stuff (axe head etc.)

Large - large stuff (wall sections etc.)

 

You could weld 2 small ones into 1 medium one.

2 medium ones into a big one.

4 small ones into a big one.

Cut medium one into 2 small ones.

Cut big one into 2 medium or 4 small ones.

 

Make it spawn in crates, make wagons at rail yard useful and make it spawn in them, too. Spawn them at car shops and rubbish bins. Forage for them (unless US forests are 100% clean of rubbish). Dismantle machinery into scrap. Sky is the limit.

 

This is the kinda thing we've been thinking since the revamp actually. This kinda approach anyway.

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Standing FAR away from the actual methodology involved in non-welding terms of providing heat and softening the metal for a moment: it's also these scrap items that can be made 'workable' as RJ mentioned earlier.

 

Thinking wasn't so much that it would be small/medium/large though - as small metal sheet, medium metal sheet, small metal pipe etc. - to make more sense when they appear in the actual designs of stuff. I'm not sure that initial release would cover the 'cutting down road signs' aspect of it, although it is a good idea Geras presents, but  "make it spawn in crates, make wagons at rail yard useful and make it spawn in them, too. Spawn them at car shops and rubbish bins. Forage for them (unless US forests are 100% clean of rubbish)" is definitely my train of thought, at least.

 

Other stuff we have in mind (nothing 100% tho, these are more examples of way we're leaning)

 

·         Metalwork items, until you've done a bunch, should make lower % quality products. Shop-pillaged and looted ones would be better.

 

 

·         We should allow the player to use a normal hammer rather than a Ball peen hammer but, as before, make sure it creates products of a reduced quality. Same goes for other non-metalwork tools if applicable.

 

 

·         Pros and Cons of using metal stuff to separate it from carpentry. Eg:

 

 

  1. Metal bars on windows. (Pro: Can see out. Con: Zombies can see in)

     

  2. Metal barriers on windows. (Pro: Good defense. Con: Rare, very noisy when attacked, people would generally choose their most dangerous window to cover)

 

To what extent is this causing puke-faces within the thread?

 

 

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Only issue with the above is "made workable" doesn't really make any sense . . .

 

Having tools actually impact the quality of the final product is a real step up, as far as crafting is concerned, not to mention being able to "make do" with what you have on hand. It's something that should be encouraged throughout the entire crafting system.

 

I'm also fine with a generalized "metal scrap" item to pull material from, so long as there's a few exceptions, such as sheet and pipe (size doesn't really need to be considered outside of a few special cases), so that we don't end up falling victim to "makes walls out of forks" critique.

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As long as you keep it realistic and not "minecrafty" this could be awesome. Welding sounds great. 

I'm also happy you decided not to use ingots in the game. 

Now im just hoping you'll add railway engineer profession. Could be a mixture of construction worker and metalworking and maybe a little bit of electrician. :) + I could make a character based on myself :P 

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3 hours ago, Batsphinx said:

... it's also these scrap items that can be made 'workable' as RJ mentioned earlier.

 

I agree with EG about the "make workable". It doesn't make much sense. You'd only want to "work" (hammer hot material) if you want to change it's shape to a reasonable extent i.e. hammer a blade out of a rebar or a hatchet out of a hammer.

 

For other items you: cut, weld, grind, sand, and heat-treat and temper (blades, tools).

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2 hours ago, Batsphinx said:

True enough, but 'soften' doesn't really explain it - and 'workable' could be seen to cover all bases including those that you suggest.

 

It's the best 'cover all' term I could think of.

 

This is how I portray (for example) making a knife out of scrap with the current system you guys are working on:

 

I have the tools and materials at hand (scrap and metal file or angle grinder) and I stand near a lit forge. Right click on any of those items > make a makeshift knife.

 

Making a section of a metal wall:

 

Step 1. I have large scrap/pipes/square tubing (or whatever you guys call it) and a blow torch on me. Right click on any of those items > Make wall frame section. You then build the frame (would be even more epic with concrete foundations).

Step 2. I now have sheets of metal on me and a blow torch (or a drill and nuts and bolts). Right click on naked wall frame > Add sheet of metal. Let's say we need 2 sheets of metal for 1 wall section. Basically it's "barricading a window with planks" but instead of a window there is naked frame and instead of planks there are sheets of metal. And instead 4 planks there are 2 sheets of metal. You happen to not have sheets of metal? No problem. Put planks on metal frame. You don't have pipes or whatever to make a metal frame? Make wooden frame of long wood blocks (1 log + saw = 2 wood blocks) and nails or screws or whatever.

Note that there is no forge needed as we don't need to hot-hammer or heat-treat or temper anything.

 

That could also change the way we build wooden walls. Instead of just planks and nails there would be naked frame first and then we put planks on it.

 

Making window bars and barricading a window:

 

Step 1. I have required materials (enough scrap or whatever) and a blow torch. Right click > Make (insert number here) window bars.

Step 2. Right click a window > Barricade window with bar. Let's say we need 4 or 5 to fully barricade a window (4 vertical and 1 horizontal bar).

Also no forge needed.

 

There is no need for that "workable" concept as far as I understand this.

 

EDIT: This could lead for people to specialize (as you guys said) in making weapons (knives, machetes etc.) and tools. This would be forging/blacksmithing. Forge needed to do stuff.

And also to specialize in defensive things (metal walls, barricades, putting additional metal plates on vehicles) and that would be welding. No forge needed do to stuff. Blow torch needed.

 

4 types of walls:

 

Wood on wood (sturdy and quite silent in case of zombies bashing)

 

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Wood on metal (stronger than wood alone but maybe makes more noise)

 

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Metal on wood (maybe same as wood on metal).

 

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Metal on metal (strongest but generates noise when zombies bash it).

 

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Edited by Geras
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1 hour ago, Geras said:

(would be even more epic with concrete foundations).

 

I like most of what you said but I would shy away from use of concrete for hope of adding in masonry in the future

 

 

my thoughts on the furnace

 

A stone furnace might not be the smartest thing to build but it is the most obvious/simple one , a neat idea though might be having different furnaces you could build if you take a metalworker talent or profession. Also having multiple approaches to the furnace could in a way facilitate cross class interaction. stone furnace could be forage/metalworking, a more makeshift variant could be pure metalworking(or carpentry/metalworking), or if they implement a "metalworking building" then you get electrical/metalworking (post power-out)

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Geras said:

I'm afraid not. Iron is an element while steel is an alloy of iron and carbon (and other metals if needed to give it additional properties).

When I said that steel was iron, I did not mean it was pure elemental iron. I meant it was what we have called "iron" for (I think) centuries. There's some water on the desk I am at right now it is not 100% pure H2O, there are minerals in it. Even if all impurities were removed, there would be some H3O and OH. It is still called water because it is almost completely H2O. In the same way, many people use the word iron for what is not pure elemental iron, but what is almost completely iron, with impurities and possibly slag deposits. Steel is purer in that there is less slag in it, and less pure in that there is often more carbon added to it, and sometimes other impurities are added too. In that way, steel counts as iron because it is almost completely Fe, but because of the nature of its impurities it is also steel. Because of this, it should be fine for metals that are almost completely Fe to be called iron, but perhaps it could also be realistic and helpful to have clues for what sort of iron. You could distinguish between a spring, and something that bends and stays bent, for instance, and identify what is stainless steel or galvanised, and what is aluminium.

 

Having workable iron may be a justified simplification. There could be hot iron that can be hammered quickly, or otherwise there could be hammer-hardened iron that can be annealed to make it workable again. Although they are quite different things, because a Project Zomboid day only lasts less than an hour, cutting out the cycles of working and annealing may be all right.

Hammer: h0214822157_blacksmiths-hammer-z_artnr_8

Edited by Gaffa Tape Warrior
Workable iron and hammer
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15 hours ago, Blasted_Taco said:

 

And as far as the idea of getting hurt in the process is concern, i like it in concept, but you are adding a risk of RNG that a lot of players cant control therefore making it a pain in the ass and taking control away from the players.

 

Hydrocraft already uses a system that lets you take injuries from fire while using a forge or any other fire based crafting, you minimize the chance of being injured if you're wearing safety equipment that can be looted or crafted. 

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19 hours ago, Blasted_Taco said:

 

Where did you get that they pushed the idea back to the drawing board?

yay!

19 hours ago, Blasted_Taco said:

And as far as the idea of getting hurt in the process is concern, i like it in concept, but you are adding a risk of RNG that a lot of players cant control therefore making it a pain in the ass and taking control away from the players.

 

I am all in in the idea of having a way to stop the grind of making a thousand wooden floors, but you reallly need to plan it out and make it fair for the players, otherwise people are going to get mad.

 

Think of it like scavenging in Neo Scavenger, you always have a chance of the fucking roof collapsing in your head for a bad RNG roll that could possible kill you.

Well I don't mean that it should kill you, it would be very frustrating for that to happen, but it should have a chance of injury. For example: digging with your hands may lead to cuts. The use of a hammer or saw could lead to bruises or cuts (which actually happen with real life RNG hehe), and with welding or forging leading to burns. The higher your level, the lower the chance of these happening. The higher your initial level, if for example you took carpenter, the lower still. So perhaps someone with 0 skill has a 5% chance of hurting themselves to a varying degree and for each level after they get a -0.04% chance buff. A person with the carpentry skill starts with a 4.5% chance and each level getting a -0.04% buff. This would never leave the chance at 0% and the carpenters would have even less of a chance to get hurt. Of course this is just an example and the percentages would have to be tweaked if this method was used. And with what Asval said, protective equipment could be rare spawned in the game too!

14 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Only issue with the above is "made workable" doesn't really make any sense . . .

 

Having tools actually impact the quality of the final product is a real step up, as far as crafting is concerned, not to mention being able to "make do" with what you have on hand. It's something that should be encouraged throughout the entire crafting system.

 

I'm also fine with a generalized "metal scrap" item to pull material from, so long as there's a few exceptions, such as sheet and pipe (size doesn't really need to be considered outside of a few special cases), so that we don't end up falling victim to "makes walls out of forks" critique.

This made think of someone taking the time to interlock the prongs and handles of forks to make a wall. Honestly it may work.......

Tools needed: forks and duct tape.

Durability: .01 out of 1000

lmfao

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Huge Edit: I did have a super long post about what i thought metalworking and welding should be like, then did research and found I was completely wrong. Here's how I think It should be handled.

 

Metal Loot should be able to be melted down to create a bar/billet. The bar should be small, medium, and large depending on how much metal you melted down. The size of the bar is indicative of what you can make (small/medium sheet of metal, small/medium pipe, small/medium blade/tool ect) and you can also weld bars together, then reheat to create a larger sized bar. Then the building materials created (or found, since the simpler materials would also be lootable) could be used by the welder for defensive imorovements. You could even include different metal types and apply them to metal loot. Then the strength of your finished product would depend on metal quality and the skill level of both the welder and metalworker. To further it even more, you could include different melting points for the metals (steel, iron, aluminum) with harder metal having a higher melting point, which woukd require you to use more resources to get your forge hotter.

Edited by TheDreaded1
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I think the idea of the vast majority of the forging being done in a separate location is a fantastic idea for both realism and challenge. Provided, that is, that we get something like a wheelbarrow simultaneously to move scrap/finished products from one place to another. It would add a huge element of risk/reward to clear the forging area out and protect it. Maybe some people might choose to make their base there and turn it into a metal fortress. I think it would be an amazing dynamic for multiplayer and give those people who like to play out in the woods where Zombies never show up a reason to leave the safety of their cabins.

 

Edit: Or perhaps those areas will allow for a greater quantity to be forged at once, or something, for bigger groups/jobs.

Edited by pzdan
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First time I heard about Metal Working I was thinking "oh no".

Why would anyone in such situation think "Hey I'm gonna go and build myself a Hammer"

In my opinion there shouldn't even be a reason for that. In my town I could gather atleast one or two hammer's in every house and atleast one axe in every second house. Where are all the tools gone? And why are these last remaining tools so weak? For example a crowbar or an axehead should never breake or become useless.

 

I dont need blacksmithing.

I want such things like the need of digging a trench for a palisade like Svarog said.

 

But welding would be very nice. Find a  welder  and combine an axehead and a pipe because the axe handle was broken.

Why dont improve the generator? The ability to find batteries so you have power without running the generator.

 

Building a stone furnace is something I would do if the apocalypse its ending days.

Edited by Crashdummy11880
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Sometimes gameplay needs to be chosen over realism, that's why all those items you mentioned aren't as common or as useful as they are IRL, but that's off topic here.

 

I like the idea someone suggested about having furnaces in certain places and not being able to craft them ourselves, with this people will have to secure an area that might not be so easy to handle, they'll have to make an outpost and defend it from zeds and other players, it would be amazingly fun and it would make sense for giant furnaces to be static in certain places and not possible to be built, and the example of the ammo-making in twd's comic suits this perfectly

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Yeah!  I think this provides the best compliment of realism, challenge, and fun gameplay.  Maybe you have to locate the manual (randomly spawned inside the forging area) and get a generator hooked up to be able to run the forge or something? I think there could also be the smaller "forging" and welding possible elsewhere but the big ticket stuff should, I think, require the static forge.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I like steel reinforced wood walls. Much stronger than wood walls that doesn't cost too much metal. I want keys to my own metal door. For multiplayer, I want something strong enough to protect myself from thiefs breaking down my walls. If not...let me build a secret underground bunker in the woods.

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