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New Metalworking (spoiler) from RJ


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1 minute ago, TheDreaded1 said:

So, like 'everyman' welding? Basically no fabrication, more repurposing? I can see that, but i think occupations should play a huge role in your abilities, even to the point that you can start at a high level of an occupation. The minecraft formula is successful, honestly, so I wouldn't mind as long as it was based in truer-to-life survivalist aspects.


I'm sick of minecraft formula by now (All survival games use it!). Just like I got sick of CoD formula... and I also hate micro transactions and DLC. Still, all those make millions of $ so go devs, you deserve the cash. The community will ultimately decide what's worth keeping and what's not through almighty modding :D

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1 hour ago, Svarog said:

I honestly see the Magazines and to some extent skill books as a bad thing. I do think that some stuff should be made exclusive to professions. Hell, maybe even have a skill level roof for non professions characters. It would do good for MP, kinda shit in SP with no NPCs but I really can't get over maxing out carpentry by spamming wooden floors. [At the same place mind you, I could probably build a skyscraper with the amount of planks I placed on the same tile]

I mean a magazine with good/bad mushrooms, berries, sure. I get that. "Your first Axe" for metalworking? I don't think the PZ loot distribution system can make that rare enough.

Edit: A way to get over the skill celling for non professions? Getting tutoring from professionals.

Perhaps we could find magazines for making nails and stuff, but not walls (Or vice versa, making bullets from scratch is probably pretty difficult)? It could play out like the Engineer profession, which is the only way a person can make aerosol bombs and pipe bombs. 

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I don't know, it looks good to me... And I'd really rather not have it require co op to use effectively but that's just me I guess. My only concern was it looked like it was turning the game into a medieval simulator before but that wall fits the game.

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I'd have to echo the chatter about the specialisations here for MP. It would be great to have more of a need for a metal worker when its get implemented, rather than every player being able to be a pro carpenter, medic, metal worker, engineer etc etc. The possibilities to expand the team work element would be great.

 

For single player though, well I'm sure the designers can think of something. 

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2 hours ago, RicoUK said:

I'd have to echo the chatter about the specialisations here for MP. It would be great to have more of a need for a metal worker when its get implemented, rather than every player being able to be a pro carpenter, medic, metal worker, engineer etc etc. The possibilities to expand the team work element would be great.

 

For single player though, well I'm sure the designers can think of something. 

 

Maybe they could make the specialization a MP thing only until the NPCs are ready?

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Well, a stone furnace is maybe a game cliché, but it's totally existing and will what metalworker would do in a survival situation.

 

It's not straight furnace -> ingot -> nails tho.

 

From the furnace you create "workable iron" (random piece of metal you soften basically), from there you can either work them on an anvil (first need to do the anvil, eh.) to craft various makeshift/handmade versions of items (from spoon, to nails to axe if you can craft a handle...) or do some welding, create metal pipe that you weld together to create chairs, or weld together small metal sheet made from an anvil to a big metal sheet to create even more furnitures or barricade your windows!

 

And as Will said, Mash has changed some of the tiles already to look more makeshift/crappy

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I'm not sure they'd go out into a field and collect stones weighing as much of themselves, dress them, then lay down on the ground to heat metal, though. It looks more like something from the medieval period. But it's serviceable, I mean.

 

Here's an example: the-forge-setup-with-labels.jpg

 

Here's an even lower-tech version for small things . . .

blacksmith5.jpeg

Why does "workable iron" need to exist as a concept (essentially replacing ingot)? If you have good metal already, simply heating it should be enough. Perhaps simply make hot working metal dependent on the presence of a forge and anvil substitute. Just don't really get why there's the initial step of "create workable iron." Why even have a focus on iron, specifically?

 

How can pipe be made in any of these settings? Bending sheet metal into a tube, I guess?

 

Metal walls should probably require a wood frame, or any frame, rather than be free standing, but that's also an issue with wooden walls in PZ, so it doesn't matter.

 

Not sure about the logistics of somehow fitting two sheets of metal into the current game's forge to weld them together . . .

 

This of course leaves out riveting, screwing, and cold working being things.

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5 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

I'm not sure they'd go out into a field and collect stones weighing as much of themselves, dress them, then lay down on the ground to heat metal, though. It looks more like something from the medieval period. But it's serviceable, I mean


Why does "workable iron" need to exist as a concept (essentially replacing ingot)? If you have good metal already, simply heating it should be enough. Perhaps simply make hot working metal dependent on the presence of a forge and anvil substitute. Just don't really get why there's the initial step of "create workable iron." Why even have a focus on iron, specifically?

 

How can pipe be made in any of these settings? Bending sheet metal into a tube, I guess?

 

Metal walls should probably require a wood frame, or any frame, rather than be free standing, but that's also an issue with wooden walls in PZ, so it doesn't matter.

 

Not sure about the logistics of somehow fitting two sheets of metal into the current game's forge to weld them together . . .

 

This of course leaves out riveting, screwing, and cold working being things.

 

I think instead of ingots, it should be solid blocks of metal that you have to heat, like cooking, and have the appropriate shaping tools equipped, then you get to choose the things you want to craft, while it's heated, which is more realistic of real blacksmithing

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Yeah, but that still implies you're smelting metal into bricks . . . The whole crux of this issue was that it was too MineCraft-y and it just seems like a few names were changed. Tt's not smelting, It's "forging," it's not "ingots," it's "workable iron."

 

Isn't it enough to have scrap metal near by and a heat source capable of producing the heat you need to work it?

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4 hours ago, RobertJohnson said:

Well, a stone furnace is maybe a game cliché, but it's totally existing and will what metalworker would do in a survival situation.

 

It's not straight furnace -> ingot -> nails tho.

 

From the furnace you create "workable iron" (random piece of metal you soften basically), from there you can either work them on an anvil (first need to do the anvil, eh.) to craft various makeshift/handmade versions of items (from spoon, to nails to axe if you can craft a handle...) or do some welding, create metal pipe that you weld together to create chairs, or weld together small metal sheet made from an anvil to a big metal sheet to create even more furnitures or barricade your windows!

 

And as Will said, Mash has changed some of the tiles already to look more makeshift/crappy

 

Take no offence, I try to give constructive criticism here:

 

How's "workable iron -> stuff" different from "ingot -> stuff"? We now hammer stuff instead of casting, right? Is "iron" a lootable item? And why iron and not steel?

 

About stone furnace:

 

As Svarog said: it's your game. You could go as far as to make a furnace of empty ice cream buckets as far as I'm concerned. But now that melting steel stuff down is gone (I think), we actually don't need a full-blown medieval furnace at all.

People can get steel orange-hot in an insulated steel coffee can, a stainless steel rubbish bin - any cylindrical in shape, steel object lined with refractory material, and a propane torch or charcoal and airflow. Or a simple fire pit with forced airflow like this guy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0Z3pDGI9vo (he makes some epic knives btw)

 

A few random forge designs from yt:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHD10DjxM1g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe0kHVBiKok

 

Really, just type "diy forge" on yt for thousands of forge designs. And believe me - no one will go foraging stones to build one.

 

Heavy machinery is needed to make steel pipes. Lead pipes existed for a reason :)

 

 

 

Edited by Geras
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1 hour ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Yeah, but that still implies you're smelting metal into bricks . . . The whole crux of this issue was that it was too MineCraft-y and it just seems like a few names were changed. Tt's not smelting, It's "forging," it's not "ingots," it's "workable iron."

 

Isn't it enough to have scrap metal near by and a heat source capable of producing the heat you need to work it?

yea, I know, but that's how it's done in real life too...they start with a metal brick, then heat the brick and hammer/shape it into what they want, then they cool it and you have a new fabricated whatever

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59 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Yeah, starting with prefabbed stock is fine. Smelting random metals into an ingot then working from it isn't.

 

Exactly. You would have to be desperate to try to hammer let's say - a knife out of a "metal brick". Making it from a flat piece of metal, however, requires no hammering at all. You'd just need to file a bevel, heat the whole thing up till it's no longer attracted to a magnet and dip it in oil (heat treating). Then temper it in an electric oven set to about 180 degrees Celsius for an hour and a half or so to get rid of all the tension within the metal caused by heat treating. That's how you make a DIY knife blade IRL.

 

EDIT: This process of course would be simplified in game by, for example, having required tools and standing near a forge, as EG suggested. No need to overcomplicate it.

Edited by Geras
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and how exactly are we gonna be 'welding'? will we have to loot or craft the tools and equipment (realistic mode) or are we welding with bare hands and fairy dust (less realistic mode)

 

of course its TIS's game and they are awesome and all that but this metal working thing seemed to come out of nowhere, theres a thread on steam asking what 5 things people would like to see, hundreds of posts, not alot of requests for forging and welding tho.

 

HOWEVER scrap metal walls/barricades  would be cool, but i can tell you from real life experience that scrap + hammer n nails will do.

Check out this zombie short that a kid filmed at a camp of rebels where i used to live, due to legal 'reasons' we had to build barricades and the kid thought that we had built a great set for a movie, all part of the plan!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?=v201xOQBWCu8

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I like it. If shit hit the fan we'd be living and learning these survival techniques all over again. It's not as if you would HAVE to use it to survive, it's a feature not a necessary skill set you'd rely on as part of the core game if you didn't so choose (based on current game play) 

 

Hope to see the updated graphic, perhaps it will ease some of the concerns too

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12 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

I'm not sure they'd go out into a field and collect stones weighing as much of themselves, dress them, then lay down on the ground to heat metal, though.

 

This. Sure, it's possible to do that - but is it actually effective? Is that what a metalworker would really do? How many metalworkers are even trained in blacksmithing these days?

 

I've yet to hear a convincing argument why a metalworker wouldn't simply use a conventional workbench. Why reinvent the wheel?

 

edit: An argument could be that afaik most metal workshops don't have a forge. An indoors DIY forge sounds like the fumes could easily kill you ;P Anyway, with a bit of suspension-of-disbelieve, this still feels more realistic imo...

Edited by ZombiesLoveBrainiacs
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15 hours ago, Geras said:

And why iron and not steel?
[...]

Heavy machinery is needed to make steel pipes. Lead pipes existed for a reason :)
 

Steel is iron. They had steel pipes on mace handles. Maybe it had something to do with lead not rusting too.

 

Here's an idea of something you could do with metal walls. You don't want zombies near your house, so you go somewhere and build a metal wall. Zombies walk along and bump into it and think "this wall looks player-made, which means I can hit it". Zombies start banging on it making a racket which makes other zombies come along to join in. That way the zombies are kept away from your house.

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While I do enjoy the idea of being able to use metal like most of the posters here, I have to agree that the whole forging thing may be a bit off.

 

When I imaging metal working in a post apocalyptic sense, I think of welding (both with torch, arc, and wire fed while the power is still on) things together to make barriers or other items. For example, the grocery stores should have shopping carts that could be cut and welded into cages for trapping, small fences to keep crawlers out, tacked to windows for extra durability, or welded to cars as screens.

 

I never thought "Hey I could build a forge and melt things down". I think part of this is because I KNOW how to weld and I don't know how to forge. The reason why I would be uncomfortable with it is because there's a risk factor with welding; you have a chance of seriously injuring yourself or even dying. If you know how to do it then the factor is severely reduced, and I know nothing of forging. More importantly PZ completely removes this risk factor in every form of in game fabrication. There's no chance of injuring yourself while building and there should be.

 

This could be remedied by implementing a chance of injury and by those professional skills. The higher your INITIAL skill is when you start the game, the less chance of injury. E.g. a carpenter has less chance of hammering thumb or cutting self while sawing, a welder has less chance of burning or electrocuting themselves (hey even electrician would fit here!), and a forger has less chance of pouring hot molten metal all over their foot. Just like the doctors have a better chance of healing your broken leg better, a carpenter whether it be metal or wood, should have a better chance of working safely. Everyone else that wants to learn it the hard way (grinding) should have the risk involved with self teaching. Upon leveling your risk goes down, but it'll always be lower for those with higher initial skill.

 

Also I think the stone forge looks tacky.

 

Edit: I just thought of something too.... Someone who tries to grind out wood carpentry could possibly loose their "dexterous" trait... hehehehehe...

Edited by Demonic_Kat
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I have no real complaints about metalworking as a whole, I kind of wish the backlash didn't occur, because all it did was send it back to the drawing board, instead of getting something tangible that we could tweak to our own idea of what it should be. In my mind, the whole thing has been one giant waste of time, because a vocal group of players (justified or not, large or small) decided it was a horrible idea and have continued to do nothing but tear down each and every iteration.

 

On the flip side, I agree with Demonic_Kat  on a few points including about possible injuries when learning new skills. I do think its fair to say that it is just not represented in Project Zomboid, and perhaps that is a real clear legitimate complaint with unskilled individuals learning to do any new skill. I further agree with Demonic_Kat  that a character's knowledge should be a key point of consideration though it was worded slightly differently.

 

The fact that Demonic_Kat admits to knowing how to weld and additionally not how to use a forge is exactly the point that RJ was trying to make when this was first announced, that the game has sort of moved from the "average joe" to the professional. That is to say that we are no longer talking about the "average joe", we are talking about people from all walks of life who have different skills and knowledge.  So with that in mind, I'm pretty much convinced that adding any profession that might be found in the area around where the game is based is perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, I don't imagine in single player much of these issues occur often enough to justify it to people who don't play online, myself included. However, I have played multiplayer games that did have very limited resources that would cause the game to end prematurely if they were wasted, so in that regard I can relate.)

 

Instead of trying to judge what is or is not a good idea for Project Zomboid, in my mind, we should be more open minded as to what skills and objects get included. At some point you have to admit that the game needs to expand in order to address resource issues in multiplayer and single player modes alike. 

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