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IWBUMS Nutrition Feedback - Official Thread

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Hey everyone,

 

So now the food and nutrition stuff has been in the IWBUMS test build for a while, and people have been playing around with it for longer than a week or so, we wanted to ask for feedback. How is it impacting on your survival, and how would you improve it?

 

We've seen various discussion threads popping up around the place, so wanted to centralise the chat a bit.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Will, RJ and the TIS gang 

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I made several playthroughs in survival mode in Nutrition Test Build and IWBUMS Build 34.13+ with more than 3 months of survival. My latest test focused on self sufficiency in Build 34.13. I tried to live off farming, foraging and trapping. I managed to gain weight back after I reached cooking level 6. A detailed report can be found here and here. When winter set in I started losing weight again, but that was expected cause there are no foraging supplies anymore and farming efficiency is reduced. I still have plenty of high-caloric non-perishable foods so I can stop the weight loss at any time. My weight is about 68kg and winter is almost over even without eating convenient foods. Overall I think the nutrition system is working. It is hard cause you really need to focus on food supply a lot.  But at least you are not doomed to die well fed cause of lacking calories all the time.

Edited by ChatNoir

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As far as I am concerned I'm not a big fan of "- hunger" values and calories being separate.

You can easily cook and eat a few -100 hunger or more meals a day, and still it'll be not enough for a character to start putting on weight (if the character is already on the negative calories side) AND you'll not be able to eat more because you'll be stuffed. That is confusing sometimes because you eat well and at the same time you can lose weight.

 

Now, I know that "- hunger" represents physical stomach satiation but it acts against cooking (which, for me, is too much clicking anyway but that's for a different topic). I also don't really see the point in all those carbohydrates, fat and lipids as I'm not able to feel how they affect gameplay at all. I've never even paid attention to those values.

 

What I would like to see is a more evident difference in getting hungry / calorie burn between being active (running, swinging weapons, carrying heavy loads over considerable distances etc.) and being idle (base management, reading, crafting, cooking and so on) with the second - idle - scenario requiring considerable less amount of calories AND getting hungry more slowly compared to being active because as of 34.15 I can not feel much of a difference.

 

I've seen a documentary on calorie burn compared to three different kind of activities and those were the results:

 

 

 

An hour in the gym:

guy: 834

woman: 729

 

3 hours of moderate continuous activity:

guy: 862

woman: 629

 

A few hours being idle (I think it was 6 or more):

guy: 640

woman: 292

 

Of course it would be close to impossible to picture all those exact numbers in a video game but it's clear to see that working out requires more or less 3x more calories than doing less demanding tasks and being almost completely idle takes considerably less calories then both of those activity models. I'm aware that there probably will not be a difference between men and women in PZ. All those numbers are just an estimate of an average person calorie burn.

Edited by Geras

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some foods appear to NOT have their nutritional value set yet. I have been eating stir frys made of Cabbage, Potato, Brocolli, Tomato and Rabbit meat, yet my weight is steadily decreasing.

 

The one day I decided to make a test. I gorged myself on 4 cooked rabbits at once (each worth about 47-55 hunger), and my char is STILL losing weigth.

 

P.S: This save is relatively old, dating back from 30.0 and being updated to the new world several times. the conversion to the IWBMSG is only the last out of several. Perhaps there is some incompatibility or data corruption.

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For me its more like a end game challenge. In first weeks you dont have to worry about it. It might be the problem in 5-7 months but then when i start with over/under waight traits i dont feel that they impact me that hard. Right now overweight is a free points, i just dont eat much at start and after few weeks my weight is normal (free 6 points).

Its still a big improvement from old system but i feel like it was added as a long long term challenge. I also cant wait for some MP play in build 34. Now we need to eat a lot more and getting food in redboid might be a nice challenge.

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I'm surviving for 3 months now and I only ate fruits and vegetables the first month then only berries and birds in small quantities just to make sure my character wasn't hungry and I played normally: killing zombies, running, looting, cutting trees, foraging etc, not staying at home doing nothing. I saw my weight going down quickly, every 2 days I've lost approximately 1kg, I'm now 35kg and I'm starting to losing health if I keep losing weight so now I eat a lot more and I gain weight. (okay I cheated a bit, I ate a full box of cereal and peanut butter :) I didn't want to die!) but even by eating birds and berries/mushrooms in bigger quantities it seems to make me gain weight

 

I think it's pretty realistic and it adds more difficulty because you need to eat a lot more to not be underweight. What I don't understand is that I dont lose skill points in strength and fitness. A 35kg guy couldn't be as strong and resistant as a 80kg guy especially when I started with 7 points in strength and I still have these 7 points today.

Edited by Axezombie

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I tried the nutrition option several times. In my last game I spent 90% of my time looking for food and cooking and still had my weight  decreasing a lot everyday (the menu was vegetables salads, berries and grilled fish several times a day). I would say it was a bit boring and I will disable the nutrition on the next times unless there are a bit less constraints in future

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I think having to constantly monitor and take care of your diet in this game takes away from the fun.  I think just having a hungry/not hungry/starving/die from starving etc is good enough. But adding moving parts to that too takes the monitoring to an annoying level for this game. 

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I feel like it would be more fair if the calorie system changed with your weight. So the skinnier you are the less calories you need to eat before losing more weight. A 70 pound person isn't going to need 1500 calories a day as their resting base like a 150 pound person does (Something like a 700 calorie base for a 70 pound person would make more sense). And btw, kind of off topic, but can we get an option to change the kg character weight to lbs? As a silly American it confuses me lol

I'm also hoping protein plays a bigger role in strength in the future. As someone that used to be a scrawny nerd and has gotten into weightlifting and being fit over the past couple years I can tell you diet plays a big role in seeing results. You're not going to get stronger if you're not eating enough protein just like you wont make any weight gains without eating enough calories. Ideally someone trying to gain or maintain muscle wants to eat 0.6 to 0.8 grams of protein per pound of body weight (depending on how used to building muscle their body is) and I'd love to see these kind of things play a role in building and maintaining strength in the game.

And I personally really like the new system :D It's made the game more fun for me again and given me a real challenge when living outside of the city, fishing and foraging. I do think the default day length time should be a little longer with the calorie requirement however, as I always play with 2 hour days in SP already and it's hard to plan for all the meals even at that speed. Might try 3 or 4 hour days soon and see if I like it better :P

 

Anyway, I love that this new system is finally requiring you to figure out a real food source after a few weeks as opposed to just eating chips or berries to survive unrealistically :)

Edited by Kuren

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1 month 6 days in 34.15, weight is about 79.5, Have 2 bases, constantly run, fighting, foraging 

I've never weight less than 79, new system allows me to not think only about food, I can build defense for 2 days and I just starving, but no health go down

system works great for me, thanks devs ;)

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On 4/14/2016 at 8:27 PM, Kuren said:

I feel like it would be more fair if the calorie system changed with your weight. So the skinnier you are the less calories you need to eat before losing more weight. A 70 pound person isn't going to need 1500 calories a day as their resting base like a 150 pound person does (Something like a 700 calorie base for a 70 pound person would make more sense). And btw, kind of off topic, but can we get an option to change the kg character weight to lbs? As a silly American it confuses me lol

I'm also hoping protein plays a bigger role in strength in the future. As someone that used to be a scrawny nerd and has gotten into weightlifting and being fit over the past couple years I can tell you diet plays a big role in seeing results. You're not going to get stronger if you're not eating enough protein just like you wont make any weight gains without eating enough calories. Ideally someone trying to gain or maintain muscle wants to eat 0.6 to 0.8 grams of protein per pound of body weight (depending on how used to building muscle their body is) and I'd love to see these kind of things play a role in building and maintaining strength in the game.

 

I agree with this

 

Maybe you could add an XP buff to Str or Fit gains depending on what you eat or your current weight?

 

If you're heavy, you gain an XP buff to Str since fat helps build muscle and if you're light, you gain a buff to fitness since cardio is easier. 

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11 months on survival.

 

I am really enjoying the nutrition system. I feel it gives some longer term goals that were not previously in the game.  The system definitely needs some love to add some fun to the game.

 

The new system has changed the way I play in a negative/unfun way. This playstyle assumes that non-perishable food will not be consumed unless of emergencies.

 

Prior to the nutrition system

  • Plant crops on a four day rotation (Carrots (for Rabbits), Cabbage, and Potatoes)
    • First day, tend to crops and traps, cook four days worth of food.
    • Second through Forth day, zombie killing, looting, fun

After the nutrition system

  • When over weight, continue the same methodology as prior to the nutrition system. All the sprinting and killing zombies will reduce my weight, along with rationing my stir-fry consumption to one stir-fry a day (-100 hunger each day).
    • The over weight time period (90kg to 65kg) tends to last for about 2-3 months. I try to make sure I am overweight when winter hits.
  • When underweight
    • The under weight time period (65kg to 90kg) lasts about three months of dormant survival
    • Plant crops on a single day rotation (Carrots (for Rabbits), Cabbage, and Potatoes)
      • Every day, tend to crops and traps, cook four days worth of food (around -400 hunger) and eat all of it.
        • Each of the four stir fry's consist of 2 units of rabbit, 2 units of potato, 2 units of cabbage, which for a character without the nutritionist trait would feel like a balanced diet of protein, carbs, and lipids. There doesn't seem to be a renewable resource that provides fat.
      • Stand around for the rest of the day, doing low intensity chores.

My feedback and observations

 

My first observation is that the system feels too early for the other systems in the game currently, so it is very difficult to not give spurious qualitative feedback. Here are some of the systems that I feel need to be bumped up a bit before the nutrition system really fits.

  • Currently it takes too long to gain weight without using non-perishables. 
    • The additions of rice and pasta along with bread are a great step in the right direction. Allowing these foods to be renewable would provide staple foods to add additional calories to meals. Adding wheat and rice to the farming line up would go a long way.
  • When trying to gain weight without using non-perishables, your whole day is consumed with the farming and cooking process. (Wake up at 800, finish cooking and growing chores at around 1400 to 1500).
    • Increase how long each day lasts. Yes, it can be done in sandbox, but I only play survival.
    • Allow meals to be saved somehow, you can rename meals, so I would assume you should be able to remake a meal that you have named. The basic UI for making meals is pretty cumbersome, while the cool crafting menu thing is awesome, you can't make multiple meals without moving the meal from your pack.
    • Allow foods to be preserved somehow. I've cleaned out 90% of Muldraugh, and I haven't found a single jar or lid. I would assume cold packs will be used at some point to cool down containers.

My second observation is that the nutrition system doesn't add any fun survival elements to the game, other than raising and lowering weight. Having a healthy nutritional balance should provide benefits, as well as the opposite bringing considerable negatives to your character. These positives and negatives should have long term affects, rather than a daily rating.

  • Protein
    • Positive: Increase in xp for strength and strength based skills
    • Negative: Decrease in xp for strength and strength based skills
  • Fat
    • Positive: Increase in xp for fitness and fitness based skills

    • Negative: Decrease in xp for fitness and fitness based skills

  • Carbs

    • Positive: Decrease the amount of sleep needed as well as the impact to exhaustion

    • Negative: Increase the amount of sleep needed as well as the impact to exhaustion

  • Balance

    • Balanced: Decrease the time it takes for the "fullness" moodlets to change. If I spend two hours eating at a korean bbq, there is no way I am eating anything else for the rest of the day ; ).

    • Unbalanced: Increase the time it takes for the "fullness" moodlets to change. Maybe add various forms of sickness.

Thanks for making the best zombie survival simulator out there!

 

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Thus far, I prefer nutrition enabled, rather than disabled. I'll admit, it got me off my rooftop garden in Muld, it successfully forced me to change the way I played. I actually had to move out to West Point to be closer to the river to replace lost calories. I just could not figure out how to grow enough food in a meaningful way to replace the calories I was burning on a vegetable diet alone. Once I added fish to my diet, I was able to put weight back on. The lack of fishing options in Muld is a problem for reasons I'll address down the page.

 

I cannot say all of this has been all sunshine and rainbows; I've gotten fairly annoyed with trapping and the lack of success (It does not give me feedback to say why I'm not successful) and as a result, it required me to move 3 months into my survival to West Point to do fishing, which I had no trouble doing compared with my trapping failures.

 

One thing that I know would make the calorie struggle easier is if we could make animal products such as milk and thus make butter and cheese. I realize it is a long way off, but I'd like to point out that without this mechanic, it is perhaps unintentionally harder to survive. As I explained to another forum member in private pms back and forth, the old stir-fry method of keeping yourself fed is actually now exactly how it works in real life, and now it is a real challenge to plan ahead to survive on a vegetable only diet, if indeed it is possible at all.

 

I did the calorie math with the stir fry I make in real life, and I discovered how quickly my 3 lbs bag of Californian style stir fry vegetables would disappear if I ate it 3 times a day, split between 3 different people. I realized how critical my unsalted butter was to my ability to maintain my body weight, and that even if I ate my 1 pound of veggies per day, I'd still need 1/3 of a stick of butter in order to make my 1800 calorie mark. (I would still need a snack of 200 calories to hit the "average" 2000 daily recommended intake.) It made me a little sad to be honest, realizing just how much real life gardening I'd have to do to eat like that every day.

 

As far as my overall feelings on nutrition, I love the idea of it, I realize just how closely it mirrors real life, and more importantly it made me really think hard to plan ahead in the game. (Not to mention making me realize how dependent I am in real life on a steady restock of frozen vegetables in groceries.) But, I can see why some players might not enjoy aspects of it, because it does require some degree of planning for long term survival. If you make an early mistake, you can't easily go back and pick up those skills, and the death of a long term survival character is a pretty harsh pill to swallow, especially when you become attached to a character. 

 

I think given enough time, we will see that this system will allow for easier expansion into potential areas of stated developer interest. I do feel strongly that this is in the interest of late game hardcore survival mechanics. I'm not, however, positive it belongs on the easier settings, it may be too challenging for some players. I understand that some players feel negatively when they chose a lesser difficulty, but the point of playing games is to have some degree of enjoyment from playing it. 

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the nutrition/food system is fairly good it is good on 2 levels 1 is that if you are a short term survivor aka you die alot it is not a massive worry however if you are a few months or so into the game it becomes a thing you have to deal with. sometimes having to even move to get to river etc to fish for protein 

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I can imagine once you've survived a year with a bunch of survivors (NPC's, sorry for mentioning it, but I don't like MP) and trying to ration food among the starving group. Maybe the farming expert died or some other disaster happened and everyone's losing weight, the scavenge runs goes bad. I'd love to see my survivor group fight off starvation as well as zombies and social issues. What's good about TIS compared with other survival games is that you take realism 10 steps further than everyone else.  Also that's why I must confess I am sceptic to metalworking, I hope you keep it realistic, but that's a whole different topic and I haven't been disappointed in anything you've done so far. ;)

Thanks a lot!

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First off, I love this game. I'm not a very "long term" survivor usually getting eaten doing something stupid (like falling off a roof into a horde of zombies) so I can't say much myself for the long termness of the nutrition system but from the short term its been pretty good.

I've been looking into nutritional studies recently for personal health reasons lately (with diabetes running strongly in my family I have to work hard to avoid getting it). On the science end of it we've been discovering in the last few years that the differences in intestinal flora between individuals can greatly impact what kinds of nutrients an individual actually receives from their food. Taking the intestinal flora from an obese person and implanting it into a lean one has been known to lead to weight gain, often massive weight gain. It has even been suggested that the illusive and almost abstract "metabolism" may be controlled mostly from there. Because of the weakness of the calorie as a measurement (because of individual differences) I'd almost avoid making it such a king in the nutrition system. (among other articles, this one is a good read about that http://mosaicscience.com/story/why-calorie-broken)

As far as gameplay mechanics then I'd almost say that a few more traits (positive and negative) about metabolism and not just starting weight could push the flexibility that people are asking for here. That and it could take the focus a little off calorie counting for those that find it too troublesome but don't want to just turn the mechanic off.

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The best thing about the nutrition system: It keeps you busy, consumes daytime to remain on your caloric income. Thats good balanced.
 

Quote

How is it impacting on your survival?


- gave more serious feeling of limited ressources
- now affraid of starvation (very plausible without source of meat)
- must leave safehouse more often
- trapping animals became small events of success
- more profound and crazy speculations about the maximum possible lifespan in the PZ ecosystem

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IMO the number of variables to juggle could eventually reach a critical mass, after which the game crosses into the tedious side of the threshold. 

Thank you for your diligence in keeping us informed. You've made a wonderful game.

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Its more cooking feedback than just nutrition. I like the change but i still have one and the same problem, game dont reward me enough to make me cook a proper meals.

In build 32 i was eating 1/4 of canned food

Build 33 i was eating the whole can of whatever.

Now (b34) im eating a icecreams or vegies, depends on if i want to lose or gain weight.

From time to time i cook raw food but thats all. I (and most of other guys I play with) never use that nice cooking system, adding spices etc. Its way to much clicking/ long and reward is just meh...

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