Gun Ownership in America

[King Kitteh]

45 minutes ago, Blasted_Taco said:

Dawn of the dead took place, where everyone pretty much was getting fucked by zombies and then everyone died in Day of the dead.

The devs have said they won't include sex in the game, so this will never happen. Therefore people will always win over zombies in PZ 

[Slice985]

Actually the orgm is really good. I like the variety. And yes there are some people who have a 50 caliber desert eagle it was a rave in the 90s when some movie had one I can't remember now but I remember they had a big phase and selling period. 

 

I like how it has sooo many ammo types so you rarely have a good stockpile of any one caliber which adds a nice balance. 

 

One thing I think about is aim. Really you have to have serious skill to aim. Police and military shoot off thousands of rounds to get their aim up. And even then if you read the news in America if police shoot someone they usually unload like 2 mags each on one guy to hit him. There was an article here in Kentucky of police shooting a guy in a truck. They wasted like 200 rounds to hit the guy. It made a lot of headlines.

 

I go to the gun range often and with no pressure on me I can hit a target "head" like 80% of the time at 30 yards with a .40 pistol. But I've fired a lot of rounds. Maybe that's good maybe that's bad but I'm proud of it lol. So I can only imagine when panicked 

[Kelefane]

I've noticed a lot of different caliber bullet types inside of the police station. I'm assuming these ALL fit inside of the "Pistol" and "Shotgun"? If not, then it kind of lends credence that there are different caliber firearms in the works.

[Slice985]

1 hour ago, Kelefane said:

I've noticed a lot of different caliber bullet types inside of the police station. I'm assuming these ALL fit inside of the "Pistol" and "Shotgun"? If not, then it kind of lends credence that there are different caliber firearms in the works.

That's probably just gamey. I know this game isn't real life but the Jefferson Co police used .40 and 9mm for pistols  after phasing out .38 . then they used 5.56 rifles and 12 guages. The state police issued many different calibers  I don't know what west point and mul used

 

Police also confiscate weapons after arrest so they could have anything. 

 

 

It was funny during the changeover. The police were used to their service revolvers rather then the hair trigger 9mm automatic. So for 2 years there were stories every other month of police shooting themselves in the foot 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Slice985

[Kelefane]

15 minutes ago, Slice985 said:

That's probably just gamey. I know this game isn't real life but the Jefferson Co police used .40 and 9mm for pistols  after phasing out .38 . then they used 5.56 rifles and 12 guages. The state police issued many different calibers  I don't know what west point and mul used

 

Police also confiscate weapons after arrest so they could have anything. 

 

 

It was funny during the changeover. The police were used to their service revolvers rather then the hair trigger 9mm automatic. So for 2 years there were stories every other month of police shooting themselves in the foot 

 

So all that Police Station ammo works in the "Pistol" and "Shotgun" ?

Edited March 25, 2016 by Kelefane

[Slice985]

25 minutes ago, Kelefane said:

 

So all that Police Station ammo works in the "Pistol" and "Shotgun" ?

No, You probably have a mod of some sort installed. I don't know of any special calibers in the vanilla game. But I play with mods so much.. frankly.. its kinda hard to remember what actually is in the vanilla mod versus what is in ORGM and Hydrocraft. 

[Kelefane]

4 minutes ago, Slice985 said:

No, You probably have a mod of some sort installed. I don't know of any special calibers in the vanilla game. But I play with mods so much.. frankly.. its kinda hard to remember what actually is in the vanilla mod versus what is in ORGM and Hydrocraft. 

 

Nope, I use zero mods. Its vanilla. There are definitely different bullet calibers inside the Police Station than you find elsewhere on the map. Its the Mul PD. 

 

So was curious if those bullets worked in the "Pistol" and "Shotgun".

 

I'd try myself, but i'd need to start a new game to do it. Last character died and haven't started up again for a week or so.  Was curious if anyone else knew if these bullets would work in the vanilla Pistol/Shotgun. 

[Magic Mark]

No, the .223 works in the varmint rifle and the .308 works in the hunting rifle. 9mm works in the handgun and the shells for the Shotgun.

 

None of them are interchangeable. 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Kim Jong Un

[Kelefane]

34 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

No, the .223 works in the varmint rifle and the .308 works in the hunting rifle. 9mm works in the handgun and the shells for the Shotgun.

 

None of them are interchangeable. 

 

Interesting. Varmint and Hunting rifles are in the vanilla game? I've yet to see those. Where are they usually located at? What types of houses/areas/buildings etc?

[Magic Mark]

6 minutes ago, Kelefane said:

 

Interesting. Varmint and Hunting rifles are in the vanilla game? I've yet to see those. Where are they usually located at? What types of houses/areas/buildings etc?

They only spawn in gunshops and on dead bodies found inside homes. They require a decent gun skill to actually hit anything with them, though.

 

If you look at any gun attatchment you find/take off, you will see for some of them that they are compatible with the varmint/hunting rifle.

[Millitron]

4 hours ago, Slice985 said:

Actually the orgm is really good. I like the variety. And yes there are some people who have a 50 caliber desert eagle it was a rave in the 90s when some movie had one I can't remember now but I remember they had a big phase and selling period. 

 

I like how it has sooo many ammo types so you rarely have a good stockpile of any one caliber which adds a nice balance. 

 

One thing I think about is aim. Really you have to have serious skill to aim. Police and military shoot off thousands of rounds to get their aim up. And even then if you read the news in America if police shoot someone they usually unload like 2 mags each on one guy to hit him. There was an article here in Kentucky of police shooting a guy in a truck. They wasted like 200 rounds to hit the guy. It made a lot of headlines.

 

I go to the gun range often and with no pressure on me I can hit a target "head" like 80% of the time at 30 yards with a .40 pistol. But I've fired a lot of rounds. Maybe that's good maybe that's bad but I'm proud of it lol. So I can only imagine when panicked 

Police don't really train that much actually.  Most only shoot just enough to qualify, and that's only ~20 shots at ~30 feet twice a year.  Plenty of civilians do more marksmanship practice for fun in their free time.

American police are kinda pathetic when it comes to skill with firearms.  If they really did shoot at that guy in Kentucky 200 times, they fired more at him than some entire countries in Europe do in a year.

[BoogieMan]

On 3/25/2016 at 1:30 PM, Millitron said:

Police don't really train that much actually.  Most only shoot just enough to qualify, and that's only ~20 shots at ~30 feet twice a year.  Plenty of civilians do more marksmanship practice for fun in their free time.

American police are kinda pathetic when it comes to skill with firearms.  If they really did shoot at that guy in Kentucky 200 times, they fired more at him than some entire countries in Europe do in a year.

That's not an accurate statement unless you have some sort of data to back it up. Things that apply in such a situation:

 

a: You're being shot at yourself, or are concerned about getting shot

b: Adrenaline and fear hurts your aim unless you're hardened.

c: If the guy was in a truck, they probably didn't have a clear shot.

d: For all they know, the 37th round got him and there were just a lot of people firing at once and kept going for awhile.

e: If police decide lethal force is required, they go for broke. The target must be neutralized before they hurt an innocent or a fellow officer. No chances. You makes the cops feel that the force is required, you're going to be swiss cheese when they're done with you, unless the situation allows accurate shooting and most people don't just stand in the open when facing off with the cops.

 

Back on the OP, 37% sounds a bit low to me. I would have guessed mid to up 40s at minimum. I have what is more or less an AR-15 and 4 pistols. Most family and friends have at least one, but typically 2-5 of difference types. 9mm and .45 pistols seem the most common. Then assorted shotguns followed by scoped hunting rifles. In my experience anyway. But for every 10 legally owned firearm there are probably at least 1 illegal.

Edited March 27, 2016 by BoogieMan

[Strats]

Given that profession zombies will be added soon, I would not be surprised if those have a chance of having a rare guns (automatic rifle, sniper rifle, etc). Also, according to what I've been reading, the prevalence of pistols, shotguns, and rifles makes sense, as these guns may be purchased without a permit in Kentucky http://www.rloky.com/kentucky-gun-trust/understanding-gun-laws-at-the-kentucky-and-federal-levels/. However, what we are seeing about the levels of gun appearance in the game do appear a bit skewed. In this 2015 study by the Federal Bureau of Investigation/NCIS, the most gun background checks were almost more than double that of the second highest, California (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/republic3-0/2015/10/which_states_have_the_most_gun057962.php). This suggests that gun ownership is significantly high in Kentucky, but also the greater prevalence of higher-power weapons than what are currently in-game. When these guns are implemented, they should either have a fairly decent spawn rate (with rare ammo, of course) or lore should be added in-game that explains the sudden scarcity of high-powered weaponry (Maybe Gen. McGrew confiscated a lot of automatic rifles to prevent an uprising while he dealt with the zombie threat?). Although automatic rifles and such should be prizes to find in Project Zomboid, real-world data suggests that they should be much more common than they are now.

[King Kitteh]

All of you are pretty much arguing the same point that guns are needed for realism, and it's already been stated that the low amount of guns are for gameplay purposes, not realism.

 

If everyone had a hundred guns and thousands of bullets then the game would be a breeze. Find a rooftop and then pump lead for hours, zombie apocalypse over.

 

 

I know I said it was a bit ridiculous, but that was mainly to do with the lack of hunting rifles, which I know now aren't programmed to spawn in houses (which is a little weird considering I've found their ammo outside of gun stores).

[Strats]

5 hours ago, King Kitteh said:

All of you are pretty much arguing the same point that guns are needed for realism, and it's already been stated that the low amount of guns are for gameplay purposes, not realism.

 

If everyone had a hundred guns and thousands of bullets then the game would be a breeze. Find a rooftop and then pump lead for hours, zombie apocalypse over.

 

 

I know I said it was a bit ridiculous, but that was mainly to do with the lack of hunting rifles, which I know now aren't programmed to spawn in houses (which is a little weird considering I've found their ammo outside of gun stores).

What you're arguing makes sense, the game would be way too easy if you only had to find an ammo stash. This is one of those gameplay over reality deals. It'd be cool to see more guns in the future though, not necessarily the three we have.

[King Kitteh]

Just now, Strats said:

What you're arguing makes sense, the game would be way too easy if you only had to find an ammo stash. This is one of those gameplay over reality deals. It'd be cool to see more guns in the future though, not necessarily the three we have.

I'd like more completely different types guns if they were balanced, but my point was mainly directed at people who more of the same type of gun (many different pistols ext) and more numerous guns in general (ruins gameplay).

 

They do plan on having military and military interactions at some point, and I'd think the military have automatic or semi-automatic weapons. I think these would be justified in getting because you'd need to steal it from the military and you'd have precious little ammo (maybe metal-crafter will help with making dem boolets).

[Kelefane]

7 hours ago, King Kitteh said:

All of you are pretty much arguing the same point that guns are needed for realism, and it's already been stated that the low amount of guns are for gameplay purposes, not realism.

 

If everyone had a hundred guns and thousands of bullets then the game would be a breeze. Find a rooftop and then pump lead for hours, zombie apocalypse over.

 

 

I know I said it was a bit ridiculous, but that was mainly to do with the lack of hunting rifles, which I know now aren't programmed to spawn in houses (which is a little weird considering I've found their ammo outside of gun stores).

 

Thing is, its how it would be in real life if the Zombie Apocalypse ever happened. Especially in the South and parts of the Northwest. You have a lot folks sitting on massive ammo caches. So in a real world setting, it would be realism. But it translating to a game might be different in terms of difficulty. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Kelefane

[Trojan_Turps]

if there were lots of guns and loads ammo in the game they would have to make guns do less damage to zombies.

this could be be relatively realistic if you take into consideration that only head shots can kill zombies. Also the brain needs to be completely destroyed. So it could take multiple hits to the head to get a kill.

 

at the moment you can kill multiple zombies with one shot from a shotgun. Technically one shot should only kill one zombie and that's a close range with a clean hit.

 

one pistol hit can kill one zombie. Change this to 2 or 3 head hits and things aren't as easy. Plus panic and missing. Your going to use alot more ammo.

 

if it takes more ammo to kill zombies then there can be more ammo in game.

[Magic Mark]

If the amount of guns currently in the game is what they'd like to keep it at, well, I definitely challenge that. There is so much more room to play with than they think there is when it comes to keeping the game balanced and not easy. 

[Rathlord]

37 minutes ago, Kim Jong Un said:

If the amount of guns currently in the game is what they'd like to keep it at, well, I definitely challenge that. There is so much more room to play with than they think there is when it comes to keeping the game balanced and not easy. 

 

Several issues with your 'challenge.' The overarching one being the focus of the game. There's also many other types and amounts of shovels, corn, and shoes than the game represents. PZ isn't a game about killing zombies and never has been. Guns are a secondary objective and a relatively low priority compared to other things, as they well should be given the focus of the game.

 

On the other hand, there's also the issue that many parts of the US require guns to be locked up in safes when stored in the home. Even in areas where they needn't be, many people do anyways for obvious reasons. Gun safes aren't really just something you can pop into with a crowbar. They require extreme power tools or other methods that are really out of the scope of the game, again tying back into that not really being the focus of development. One can safely assume these items are well out of reach of players, which makes the volume of available firearms much more consistent with what you'd fine in reality.

[Quigleyer]

24 minutes ago, Rathlord said:

 

Several issues with your 'challenge.' The overarching one being the focus of the game. There's also many other types and amounts of shovels, corn, and shoes than the game represents. PZ isn't a game about killing zombies and never has been. Guns are a secondary objective and a relatively low priority compared to other things, as they well should be given the focus of the game.

 

On the other hand, there's also the issue that many parts of the US require guns to be locked up in safes when stored in the home. Even in areas where they needn't be, many people do anyways for obvious reasons. Gun safes aren't really just something you can pop into with a crowbar. They require extreme power tools or other methods that are really out of the scope of the game, again tying back into that not really being the focus of development. One can safely assume these items are well out of reach of players, which makes the volume of available firearms much more consistent with what you'd fine in reality.

 

I really like your first argument, but with the second argument I wonder- do you live in the southern United States?

My neighbor (back home now, at my mother's house) still fires his gunpowder cannon every 4th of July.  People aren't exaggerating... it's REALLY like that.  There are guns everywhere- hunting season sounds like a mini war.  The other neighbors have some kind of mounted tripod machine-gun that I'm positively sure is illegal. I had 22 classmates in my high school that parked across the street in a guy's field because they wouldn't take their guns out of their cars when they came to school in the morning.  For reference there were around 400 students total in the school (so it's kind of a lot of people...).

 

Around those parts people are just as likely to own a gun safe and leave their guns on top of it as they are to actually lock the thing. And my county wasn't even that "backwoods".

 

If you could only come visit in November you'd hear more gun shots out in the piddly little country (I was actually born in Kentucky, but lived most of my life in VA) than you'd ever hear in any city.  You stop flinching at gun shots you hear them so much, and so close. 

 

But I like the balance argument, and that they aren't developing guns because it's not a zombie-killing game specifically.  I think that makes sense, and I personally agree it's more fun.  But it's not... realistic, if that really matters.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Quigleyer

[Magic Mark]

7 hours ago, Rathlord said:

 

Several issues with your 'challenge.' The overarching one being the focus of the game. There's also many other types and amounts of shovels, corn, and shoes than the game represents. PZ isn't a game about killing zombies and never has been. Guns are a secondary objective and a relatively low priority compared to other things, as they well should be given the focus of the game.

 

On the other hand, there's also the issue that many parts of the US require guns to be locked up in safes when stored in the home. Even in areas where they needn't be, many people do anyways for obvious reasons. Gun safes aren't really just something you can pop into with a crowbar. They require extreme power tools or other methods that are really out of the scope of the game, again tying back into that not really being the focus of development. One can safely assume these items are well out of reach of players, which makes the volume of available firearms much more consistent with what you'd fine in reality.

 

Yes, but that's not my point.

 

The topic of firearms and the lack there of is one I see all the time, especially with my American friends who actually live in the south.

 

My point is that gun culture is a huge thing in Kentucky, especially in the 90s. To cut it out of the game in the argument that it will be too easy to 'win' because the player (who may or may not have firearm skill) can find a Hunting Rifle in somebody's wardrobe on top of whatever is in the gun shop, and just more guns in general, is almost an unnecessary precaution. (I'm assuming that that was the reason rifles were only given two or three spawn options but I could be wrong).

 

Like you said, Project Zomboid is far from a typical zombie-killing game in the sense that it's not about zombie killing. You don't have to restrict guns to make that point. One thing people forget here is even if you manage to scavenge 50 shotguns, you are only using one of them at a time, and as it stands it isn't that difficult to maintain a shotgun and find ammo for it.

 

That said, there is a huge opportunity here to capitalize on the gun culture and make it seem as Kentucky as possible, while still preventing guns from completely overtaking the game. I mentioned before that this is something the developers should really test and take results on when they do end up adding more guns before saying "this is fine and there is no reason to change it". I stand by that statement, and I think I justified why I feel that way in my first post.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Kim Jong Un

[EnigmaGrey]

Somehow, I don't think most people will accept guns nerfed even further than current, even if the reason  is so that loot spawns appear more realistic.

[Quigleyer]

One of the points Kim was making to me earlier that intrigued me was that there were several different ways to nerf guns.  Stuff like panic's effects, zombie attraction, the effectiveness of the firearms skills in general, etc., etc.

 

I can see that, that's definitely good thinking.  But my reservations still come from thinking of the game in the longer term, and I think multiplayer is the future of the game.  I know that, as you had pointed out Kim, there are lots of good reasons to think twice about initiating in PvP, but it could also be said those reasons are diminished the more armed people you have at your back.  If a group of 10 people can get on a server and find enough guns to supply themselves as quickly as they would in a realistic southern United States I think that multiplayer balance is going to be hurting as a result.  

 

There's part of me that thinks that's a good thing, part of me that thinks it's a bad thing.  On one hand it's really cool that a group of marauders could join a server, arm themselves, and cause some mayhem.  That's something that could totally happen in the zombie apocalypse (like those crazy motorcycle guys in both iterations of Dawn of the Dead), and that adds some spice to it.  But on the other hand that sounds like a big blow to the balance of power that comes from long hours of building up a fortress and scavenging for supplies.

 

With enough armed people that could find guns easily you could just form a firing line.

 

Honestly keeping it as an option is always going to be the best bet, but I think we all agree with that (whether it be mods or weapon spawn rates, etc.).  It's just about how vanilla will play out...

Edited March 26, 2016 by Quigleyer

[Millitron]

4 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Somehow, I don't think most people will accept guns nerfed even further than current, even if the reason  is so that loot spawns appear more realistic.

Why would they need nerfed?  They're kinda poor now not because guns or ammo are uncommon, they're poor because every zombie within a mile comes running as soon as you shoot.

They could easily be more common, and could include semi-automatic rifles (which are quite common), and still not be overpowered.  I mean if we're aiming for a realistic depiction of rural Kentucky, you should be practically tripping over guns.

Side note: How come you often find a gun but no ammo, or ammo but no gun?  I could see it happening sometimes, but it should be rare.  Like, you'll find a pistol in a dresser in some house, but no ammo for it anywhere in the building.  Or visa versa, you find ammo, but no corresponding gun in the building.